Gogo

Well yes, we know that change in eye color tells us important things. But that doesn't mean we'll know what they mean when we get deviant cases like Xehanort's brown eyes, especially when we don't know the full extent of Xehanort's circumstances. We just have different approaches. You guys reason through interpretation of material. I reason through interpretation of patterns. That's that. If you're gonna leave it at that last post, I think I might actually join you on that. But thanks for keeping patience.

Saying that brown eyes definitely means something doesn't mean we have a good idea as to what they mean. I know, just saiyan. Or maybe it could be ironic because he wouldn't have to lift a finger to let someone with a grudge fight his own past friend. Fair point.But combat theatricalities aren't quite reliable. Take Roxas initiating his fight with Sora, in KH2 TWTNW. He grunts more in gameplay, but he just stayed silent after striking Sora the first time. He's still has front-row seats on the master plan to reorganize the universe. This might be what really interests him.Edit: Editing again...uh, brb.

I'm sure you can understand that that's still only one potential interpretation alongside many others that may seem just as plausible. Nomura made certain to leave it unclear as to what heart did what inside of Apprentice Xehanort and his future incarnations. Assuming that the Xehanorts can't offer him something he wants. Would certainly explain why he planned on overthrowing and then sticking to the Organization than just flat-out trying to leave it. Don't get me wrong, I understand how it could work. However, I find it easier to explain that as MX both expecting and enjoying the irony of old friends fighting against each other. Beserk Mode Saix (found the right name) is clearly different from regular Saix, though. Different face, different weapon. Pretty reasonable to me. And it's entirely reflective of Xehanort's character to lie to him; that's all the Xehanorts have ever done, use and abuse. MX took interest in Terra because of Terra's desire for power (as well as other examples), so it's possible that Saix is the continuation of that pattern. Edit: Responding to Flaming Lea's post I'm sure you can understand that that's still only one potential interpretation alongside many others that may seem just as plausible. Nomura made certain to leave it unclear as to what heart did what inside of Apprentice Xehanort and his future incarnations. Assuming that the Xehanorts can't offer him something he wants. Would certainly explain why he planned on overthrowing and then sticking to the Organization than just flat-out trying to leave it. Don't get me wrong, I understand how it could work. However, I find it easier to explain that as MX both expecting and enjoying the irony of old friends fighting against each other. Beserk Mode Saix (found the right name) is clearly different from regular Saix, though. Different face, different weapon. Pretty reasonable to me. And it's entirely reflective of Xehanort's character to lie to him; that's all the Xehanorts have ever done, use and abuse. MX took interest in Terra because of Terra's desire for power (as well as other examples), so it's possible that Saix is the continuation of that pattern. You're saying that certain canon material insinuates certain ideas/theories, and that it's unreasonable for them to insinuate anything else. You can't just create a scenario and justify its plausibility by saying "it makes logical sense," especially if there's barely any real connection to the canon material. For instance, I'm saying Xemnas lied to Saix and promised him power because it's undeniable that most other incarnations of Xehanort tend to take advantage of others. With a situation as specific as Saix' experimentation, what could possibly be foreshadowing that it happened this way, other than "who cares, it works out perfectly anyways?" Or they just snuck in at the wrong place and time. I'm not saying it's more plausible than being experimented on, but it's plausible enough to consider room for error. As for Days , once again you keep referencing a game you never bothered to finish and have little knowledge about. Everything you just said right there made no sense . How would you even know since you don't even know what happened during Days ? Do you not realize what you sound like right here ? You can't deny that the Ven scene is complete proof that Days was not meant to be fully understood as a standalone game. If you played Days, then you know what I'm talking about. It's pretty damn obvious what's going on in that scene but like i said, all you have is 'what if' and "bc i said so " while everyone else is telling you WHY using canon material. We won't agree on this ever bc it's pretty obvious you refuse to admit anything that refutes you makes sense. You don't interpret Saix being mind-controlled as obvious because "it just is," rather it's because you can't find a reason for Saix to be there genuinely. I've already provided reasons. The fact that its a proven point that Saix was a traitor says it all .So even allowing the possibility he played both sides STILL MAKES HIM UNLOYAL. How is this hard to understand? Oh thats right bc it refutes what you are saying . LOL Do you know why plot holes are important problems? It's because they make a difference in the story structure. Your interpretation of a plot hole is that it doesn't even matter, so bother even thinking of it? Xemnas fully admitted to lying to all the members of the org to get what he wanted from them without them knowing .Xigbar being the exception bc he was in on the plot from the beggining and before the org was formed.Just bc HE was willing doesn't make it true about anyone else. Why would a known traitor WANT to willingly be norted and submit his will to a man he did not trust and wanted to overthrow ? The Xehanorts aren't just liars, they're convincing. Otherwise, they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did (and no point in being a liar if you can't pull it off, either). Tell me how that makes sense one bit ? Saix and Axel also searched everywhere looking for what Xemnas was really up to in Days . Why would they do that if Saix was willing and already knew ? Knowing about the vessel plan doesn't mean knowing about what the importance of the chambers. Nothing you are saying adds up to the end result making it highly unlikely due to it making it illogical based off the past actions of this character . Well yeah, the series has established recurring patterns/formulas before. Because in game canon and Nomuras own words don't prove Saix was disloyal and working against Xemnas while pretending to be his right hand man,right ? LOL ok then Like I said, it's like you're blocking out DDD from the canon universe.

Or lack of struggle from both hearts. If brown eyes symbolizes struggle (or, at least eyes that aren't golden), why didn't they change until after the heart extraction (and gradually, at that)? Terra was already struggling before. Xehanort's case is too complicated to say almost anything clear about it. I can imagine that a fragment can affect judgment, yeah. Whether or not that means you are who you truly are is grey zone, but all I'm trying to do is show that it's reasonable for Saix to be there genuinely, even if it's also reasonable otherwise. From what I'm seeing, he smiles at the same time as he widens his eyes. Either way, it could just as easily be MX being cocky. Unless this notion was used in previous examples of mind-control, you can't say that it favors that argument over the other. Saix was in his equivalent of "Rage Mode," given that he had a slightly different model. I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me about the extent of its plausibility, but thank you. That's all I'm really trying to say, that's possible and plausible. You're counter-theorizing my theory with your own, using Nomura's words/series material as backbone. The problem is that I find you're misusing all that material in a way that's more flawed than you think. MX having control? Says nothing about Saix wanting to be there. Lea's revival in the lab? Even if they were experimented, where would the idea of the correlation between his Heartless transformation and Xehanortification even come from? That's the actual baseless theory. Play Days? Play Days without playing BBS, and try to explain the Ven scene. Days is not only its own game, but a part of a series that's constantly developing its own universe. Most of those are assumptions that you have to make to make your theory on Saix' unwillingness seem plausible; just because you're quoting canon material doesn't mean you're using it right. You're not just saying it's a theory, you're saying it's a plausible theory and everything else is unlikely. The problem is that you shouldn't make assumptions on YX's quote about treachery if even plotholes hold certain significance in the series. You're telling me it's canon that Saix was a traitor, yet you can't accept that treachery is still a canon reason, or at least to a certain extent. It's still a reason to not jump to a conclusion that could make or break a theory (or, make it seem more plausible, at least). He said, "what now, you old coot?"Isa has plenty of reasons to attack Lea on his own accord, and MX, the all-seeing eye who knows about Sora's escapades without ever meeting him, would know and take advantage of that. That still wouldn't go against Saix actually wanting to be part of the Orgs. No, the loyalty issue was something I addressed earlier. If you're going to reason my theory to be outlandish, these are points you should be addressing, not an issue that can be interpreted in both our ways. This much I can appreciate, so thank you for that. The facts don't point towards his unwilling participation, they point towards MX calling the shots. In fact, Nomura expressed Xigbar's pride in being a Xehanort, so there's potential for willing participants, even the traitor Saix. It can be argued that it can go both ways.

Just the idea that they were experimented on is something I'd consider no more than a probable theory. Where is the basis for the idea that Saix was a special case, in that his Xehanortification was even related to his Heartless transformation? No game quote/pattern or Nomura quote you gave has even remotely referenced that idea. Your DDD argument doesn't hold enough to assume what you want out of Nomura's quote. "He plans to control them completely."How does that indicate that he's always got some amount of control over his vessels, 24/7? Are you going to assume that there is no difference between YX during most of DDD and YX during his boss battle? Are you going to assume that Saix would even know of this part? All the Xehanorts ever do is scam people. If anything, Xemnas WOULD scam Saix out because of the conspiracy plans. All you've done is told me why it could be taken that they were talking about a vessel for Sora's power to collect KH. It'd help if you told me why it couldn't be a plan to get another Xehanort vessel, which I've already expressed how it could. First you tell me that YX's quote about treachery being a reason for failed members is a retcon (in that case, it would be considered canon), now you're telling me that Nomura wrote that on purpose (and that it's actually YX's misinterpretation). Surely you can see the problem here. They're the same physically, but not physiologically, since that attempted heart extraction did something. Even if the amnesia was fake, was the brown eyes supposed to happen either way? I know how it's a very different example, but it's an example nonetheless because it shares the same base idea with the vessels: Affecting a vessel that already has a heart. Really though, I'll admit that Terranort's case can go either way. MX leered. That can't mean he can expect Isa to attack someone he probably has beef with anyways?Nomura said he "plans to control." That doesn't insinuate at all that he has 24/7 control, which would be the only way to prove that Isa's there against his will. You're not even addressing what you were just quoting; I already explained my beef with the treachery business. Like I said, I don't know how you can say you aren't grasping for straws with the idea of Saix' forced Xehanortification, either. Just because I don't respect the idea Isa's/Lea's experimentation as an assumed fact doesn't mean I don't respect it as a credible theory.

Terranort was the form that resembled Terra more. Apprentice Xehanort was the form with longer hair and brown eyes. The last confirmed time we've seen Terranort affect his heart was the attempted heart extraction of Terra's heart; he still looked the same, a short amount of time passed, and then he looks like AX.

That's still no reason to dismiss Apprentice Xehanort as an exception to a happening we've never even seen before, no matter how different a case it actually is. We don't know why it took as long as he did to change, we can't assume why, and we can't say it's not plausible to be similar to the cases of SoD's. I don't jump to conclusions, not after the popular theory of Aqua being stuck in the CoR. We don't know that. It's probable at least for the apprentices, but Saix may have actually wanted to be part of both orgs. He did want to overthrow the first one, and not leave it. It's too unrealistic in a video game for two people two die at the same time and place? I don't think it sounds better than the experimentation idea, but it's not something I'd call highly unlikely, given that they have other reasons to be in the castle anyways. Again, we don't know the circumstances of Saix's status as a vessel; I'll get into this next. All we know is that Xemnas kept quiet; that doesn't mean he didn't do anything about it. Like I said, Saix may have actually wanted to have been part of both Orgs. As for why, I think he just wanted power. Desire for power has been an important motive that's been used and abused before with a few other characters, so this wouldn't be coming out of nowhere.He would want to overthrow, and not ditch, the Org for power.He would work with Xemnas towards the KH of Peoples' Heart for power.He would willingly become a SoD for power.And the whole heart thing could be a matter of him having conflict over what he really wants.

It's not a very relatable example, but you're not seeing what that example is trying to prove; the series makes an effort to make that distinction I said earlier, under the right circumstances. And honestly, it's a stretch to consider the potential time between the RG story and the Keyblade Graveyard story as "short enough to assume the effects were immediate." [/size]Point is that shit happens, and Heartless escape. Furthermore, why can't they have been attacked by Heartless after the apprentices' departure/Heartless invasion? Or if they were experimented on, why couldn't they have just been attacked by/turned into Heartless, and that's that (as in, no special treatment for Isa)? That's what I've been trying to say. You can't use the fact of him staying after Axel's departure as support for the idea of him being controlled (or fear of) because he may have just stayed out of actual, genuine interest. Read what I said before about quoting Nomura. YX said that they were considering Roxas as a potential vessel (Xion could be blamed on memory loss). DDD's conception is one thing, but do you really think that Nomura conceived the basis for Xehanortification just then? Wouldn't it make sense for it to have been an idea in the making?They didn't clarify that they wanted a "vessel" out of Sora's power for KH. Given the way the plot developed, that's pretty important ow. [/size]That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that "treachery" is canonically a reason for a failed vessel. Even if the audience considers Saix a traitor, that does not mean that he's a traitor by the series' standards. Take it up with the writer. Let's just boil it down then.You're trying to say that Saix being forced against his will is a plausible situation.I'm trying to say that Saix actually wanting to be part of Xemnas' plans is a plausible situation.That's it. No problem. There's a distinct difference between gradual (yet fast) effects and immediate effects. Because of that difference and how we don't know certain details about Braig getting 'Norted, Braig going through immediate effects isn't that much more plausible than otherwise. Would it make that much difference if they were talking about a potential keyblade wielder to help build KH? He wanted to overthrow Xemnas. But, that wouldn't necessarily mean that he wouldn't be interested in what Xemnas had to offer. Otherwise, why stick around for so long, even after he abandoned that dream? A Xehanort heart clearly didn't reflect what his true personality would have been; he could've just wanted to feel like himself again.Speculation on my end, but believeable, no?

The vessel idea, while never having been officially revealed until DDD, was something that Nomura built up via foreshadowing. It was much more apparent in BBS, a game that was in development before Days, despite being released after. At the very least, he may have had SOME idea of Saix' and Xigbar's significance when writing KH2. Post-KH2 is more likely. This is assuming there are different levels of mind-control; I don't recall that concept being in the series before. Saix definitely was special to some extent, otherwise he wouldn't be a vessel. However, I'm not really convinced at the idea of Saix being held against his will throughout KH2. I find it easier to believe that he genuinely wanted something out of the Org, and possibly out of the new org. Perhaps he stayed in both Orgs for the same reasoning. I'm saying it's possible because you cannot make an assumption on a happening that's never even been seen before. the effects clearly didn't take long to appear, but that's NOT the same as immediate effects. Apprentice Xehanort is an example (a very different one, but an example nonetheless) of how the series has distinguished the difference between gradual and immediate effects, so why can't the series do it again?This isn't a baseless possibility. You used the word "prove" quite a few times. I'm guessing we have a different idea of what that word means.As for the Heartless, they made their way into the castle at least, even when Xehanort was still writing reports. That's how he found the heart of the world. I'm not saying it's impossible, but that it's also possible and reasonable for him to attack Lea just because he wanted to. I've been past that point for quite a while, what I've been trying to get at was the idea of Saix being in the Org besides to overthrow it. Fair enough. I still wouldn't go so far as to assume him being controlled, especially when his appearance tells us nothing concrete. He looked like the same, emotionless person he's always been, and the silence of 5 seconds could easily be just the cold treatment. It's really not that hard to see him attacking Lea because he would want to, since they're probably not even on good terms. I don't see where they ever clarified the meaning of "vessel" there. It's also a "pretty damn good reason to discuss which vessel is worthy to" suit the role of the final SoD. Why else would they "follow the keyblade?" Your theory relies on the possibility that only members 9 up had different Xehanortification processes from the earlier members. Why label "treachery" as a reason for failure if Xehanortification is determined on the spot, as you said with Saix? devereauxr was reasoning Saix' emotionless personality as the reason he became a successful vessel. I was saying that may not be the case. And yet I find it that you find it better to denounce possibilities instead; even I haven't done that to most of your ideas. I just don't agree with them, but I don't go so far as to assume they're outlandish. Quoting structure is a bit off, just a warning.

From what I'm understanding from Flaming Lea, Saix may have been special enough to get 'Norted against his own will, a specialty that the other apprentices didn't happen to have. Personally, I think there's more reasonable alternatives than that particular scenario.Second, Saix' emotionless nature could just as easily have been a result of the fragment within him. Sure, Xigbar has more character, but it was MX who chose him; Saix acts more like Xemnas, the person more likely to have chosen him. I'm with you on that.

You misunderstand me as someone trying to prove/disprove things; I'm trying to prove that certain scenarios are possible, nothing more. You assumed that Braig had an immediate transformation by saying, "Braig showed right away" without a hint of possibility otherwise; I didn't say it wasn't true, I said it was debatable.As for Lea/Isa, they were in a Heartless Lab. They could've been attacked by Heartless just as easily. Assuming that they were, in fact, experimented on; speculation based on speculation.Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the idea is impossible, or even that it's not a plausible scenario. Honestly, it's believeable. I'm just saying that there are other theories that are just as believable. Well then I fail to see how he'd still be in the Org without personal reasons; he already threw away the dream of overthrowing Xemnas, so what kept him there? If not someone else's will, then his own. He still holds responsibility for his actions, in that sense. Well yeah. Difference is, though, that you can tell when someone's held against there will; it's essentially a complete switch in personality to that of the controller. I wouldn't call Xehanortification the same thing. Well that's one way to reason unwilling participation. Granted, I'm not completely sold on Saix being a case so special to be exempt from the possibility of treachery, and that the apprentices "just didn't have it." Saix wasn't possessed there; he didn't have the glowing eyes or keyblade that Young Xehanort had. Rather, MX probably expected Saix to call dibs on Lea, and I'm not surprised. That's still power that, as far as Saix would know, is just as much his as all the other SoD's. Why wouldn't they be discussing Xion's worthiness as a vessel if they meant a SoD vessel? The way I see it, the conversation could have been one of two things:A: "Xion would make the more powerful vessel for Sora's power because reasons A and B"B: "Xion would make the more powerful vessel for a heart fragment because reaons A and B" DDD wasn't conceived. Turning people into Xehanorts could've been conceived as early as KH2 (most likely post-KH2, though), and this could have been foreshadowing, like how Xigbar foreshadowed past keyblade wielders.Like I said, I'm just saying these are possibilities. NOT assumptions.

Debatable; it could've taken days. Even Apprentice Xehanort needed some time to change appearances, so it's possible that Xehanortification is no different. While the transformation of the apprentices can be assumed, Lea's and Saix' can't. It could've been heart extraction just as easily as them being early victims of the Heartless invasion (when you think about it, the fact that Lea became lost his heart in the lab can go either way).Faster Xehanortification via KH synchronization is feasible, although it begs the question as to how only Saix would have been the only one with results (intitial ones, at that). Assuming he was part of the initial batch. Then unless he was a mindless zombie that just went with the flow, he had reasoning for following the Org until the end. We see him for 5 seconds; not enough time to form a conclusion like that. He'll need to share it with 12 other people anyways, and even if he doesn't have to, it's completely within his character to both use others and say one thing and do another. There's a difference between being born with small changes and having them grow on you. I understand how it would make sense for Xion to have been considered a vessel for Sora's power, and why it would make sense. However, I don't see how the other scenario is any less plausible, if not more. The conversation was vessels talking about vessels, not to mention finding the 13th seat was the ulterior purpose of the Org. It's not a stretch to say they were talking about SoD's.

The problem is that, with each member, there has to be potential for a backstory between them and Xehanort. It was different for the first Org because it was able to be composed of random people; the 13 SoD are all connected to Xehanort in some way. Personally, I think pure cameos would be a horrible way to fill the seats since that backstory would most likely be nothing more than "Xehanort just picked him off the streets."

It's possible, yes, but it begs the question: if Xehanortification is that quick, where's everyone else's golden eyes/pointy ears? That was partially the point of the Org; to find candidates. It'd only be possible if Saix (as Isa) was SUPER special, if Xigbar and Saix were the only successful vessels (which itself is debatable, but I personally think it'd be hard to fill those seats otherwise), and if Xemnas decided to skip Roxas for whatever reasons. It's a possible scenario, but I wouldn't say that the fact that he's always been seen as a vessel tells us anything about how he became one. I still find it unconvincing for him to have gone through the entirety of KH2 "mind-controlled." I don't think he could've upheld the Org without having some sort of reasoning behind it, unless he was under complete mind-control; needless to say, we already know what that looks like, and Saix didn't fit that. Doesn't really make much sense.Come to think of it, I think that, besides a heart, Saix also really wanted power. And Xemnas knew that. So, Xemnas would offer Saix an opportunity to become one of the SoD, who would, in their eyes, become the next rulers of the universe. I recall him saying that they were weak, and just that. Both are possibilities of what the true nature of the conversation could have been, but I wouldn't say that they have the same amount of possibility; the way I see it, one of them doesn't stretch the possible meanings of words as much as the other, especially given the nature of the people in the conversation. Golden eyes have been used more so as a reference to MX than corruption of darkness. Only exception so far is Vanitas, but even that's questionable. That's if AtW's eyes were golden, anyways.

As for looks, well. Whether he'd be 'Norted before or after becoming a Nobody (maybe even during, but that just raises a lot of questions) I think he would notice the change; I don't recall Nobodies being able to morph appearances after birth, especially considering how they can't age (or at least under normal circumstances).As for his death speech, could be retconning, or maybe he's just a tired man who's made no progress in what he really wants. It doesn't have to be that way, but it's a possibility. I'm not saying that "it has to be taken this way," rather I'm saying that "it's easier to see it this way because of reasons A and B." Yeah, that's what I said. The Org had Sora's power, but the SoD did not.