Death Is Meaningless In Kingdom Hearts

[Elfdemon_ 695]

EDIT: This is an old post. There are things in this post that I no longer think or agree with. Read with a grain of salt.

 

PLEASE READ THE WHOLE POST BEFORE COMMENTING

 

Kingdom Hearts is my favorite series and I love many things about it. But, the only thing that actually aggravates me about this series is that death is meaningless. Whenever we kill a villain, they always come back by some bullshit method and whenever a good character dies, we get told that there's a way to bring them back. They act like a character dying is sad and they act like a character dying should make us sad or impact us in some way, but then just bring back the character/say the character can be brought back. This makes death absolutely meaningless and makes it so we feel no emotion when a character dies. Yes, we might feel a little emotion since we're seeing a character watch them die get sad and that rubs off on us, but we know that that character can easily come back so it's no where near as sad as it would be.

 

Maleficent dies but comes back because the three fairies remembered her. Oogie Boogie dies but comes back because apparently Maleficent has the ability to bring people back from the dead. Ursula dies but comes back in some weird phantom form because apparently Xehanort has the ability to make that happen. Xion, Roxas, and Namine "die" but we get told that there's a way to bring them back. Eraqus dies but apparently his heart was able to take refuge within Terra. Xehanort, Lea, Isa, Braig, Dilan, Aeleus, Ienzo, and Even are all back because apparently your original self returns if your Heartless and Nobody are destroyed. Turns out Ansem the Wise didn't actually die, he just got sent to the Realm of Darkness for some reason somehow. Xemnas and Ansem Seeker of Darkness died but they're back because time travel.

 

These are the most bullshit methods I've ever heard. Well, I guess the whole original person returning because Heartless/Nobody getting destroyed isn't that bad, but everything else I mentioned is complete bullshit.

 

I remember playing Kingdom Hearts II when I was like 6 and getting very emotional when Roxas and Namine formed back with Sora and Kairi and I remember playing 358/2 Days when I was like 9 and getting very emotional when Xion died. But, it turns out none of that mattered. It turns out they can just come back. What was the point? What was the point of having those emotional scenes if they can just come back? These characters coming back completely destroys and gets rid of my sad emotions for these characters. It completely undermines the emotional experiences I had playing through those games for the first time. Dream Drop Distance completely destroyed the Kingdom Hearts plot in my opinion. Having Disney villains come back by bullshit means isn't that aggravating since they're considered pretty unimportant when compared to the main characters, but when Dream Drop Distance came along and told us that all these characters came back and told us that all these other characters *can* come back, I was speechless. How could they do this? How could they just completely make all these characters I loved's deaths just mean absolutely nothing when they meant so much to me and impacted me so much?

 

Whenever I'd go replay the games and watch Roxas and Namine fuse back with Sora and Kairi or watch Xion die, I'd get emotional. But now, whenever I see those scenes, I feel nothing, because I know that any character can just come back.

 

I've seen people asking "what would ruin KH3 for you?" People reply with things such as "if the gameplay plays like Birth by Sleep or Dream Drop Distance", "if the graphics are bad", "if the final boss is anticlimactic", and "if it turns out Xehanort isn't the true villain", but the only thing that could ruin Kingdom Hearts III for me is if Xion, Roxas, and Namine return. The only thing that could ruin Kingdom Hearts III for me is if they rip those emotional moments from my past right out of my memories. And the sad thing is is I know they are going to do that. Now don't get me wrong, Kingdom Hearts III looks fantastic. Gameplay looks like it might be the most fun I'll ever have playing a game, graphics look great, cutscenes look interesting and exciting, but man, having Xion, Roxas, and Namine return would really be a downer. It wouldn't completely ruin the game for me, but it would definitely leave a substantial bitter taste in my mouth.

 

Am I the only one who feels this way? I can't be, right? I can think of a few other shows/games where a dead character returns and people are furious, so who else here feels the same way about KH? And I have a question for people who don't feel this way: "Why don't you feel this way?" Did you just not get emotional over their deaths to begin with so you won't care if they return?

 

Sorry for the long post. It's just, I haven't seen anyone else feel this way (I've actually only seen people feel the opposite way), so I had to vent and get this out of my system. Please, Square Enix, let Roxas, Namine, and Xion rest in peace.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Elfdemon_

[Steeghs 56]

I have the same feelings about that. 

Death used to be a emotion how we feel for  a person or thing.

Mabt they will kill some one in KH3 but i don't so.

[The 13th Kenpachi 4,279]

It's a Disney game I expect nonetheless.

[MythrilMagician 6,963]

I really never cared about all these characters returning from the dead. Regardless, I have one thing to say about it: fanservice. That's all it is. Fans want the characters back, Nomura finds am excuse to put into the lore that makes it possible. Simple as that.

[Komali 594]

I've always expected for them to come back since the moment they died. Everything else would be dissapointing, because their story is not finished yet. Everyone who says it's because of Disney or fan service, they never understood what KH is about tbh.

 

Just my opinion.

[Dustin Newton 60]

from the perspective of someone who never cared when a character dies, i don't really care if someone gets brought back. I predicted the return of the villains before BBS was released , that's how predictable this series is when you sit down and give proper thought to it. If some of the villains that participate in the upcoming battle survive III and join the heroes then i will get frustrated, because that's really stupid. We have enough heroes as it is, many of which probably won't be all that important later. Somebody is going to be sacrificed to the plot, whether it's well written or not, and i'm fine with that.

[Mysterious Figure 353]

To be honest it doesn't really bother me too much.

 

What I will say however is if you're gonna bring all these chracters back for fanservice you might as well dial it up to 100. As long as I can see the epic grand battle between all these characters at the climax of KH3 I don't care how they bring characters back, just make it awesome.

 

Besides I think some of these characters kinda deserve a happy ending.

[KHUndertaleFan25 2,858]

I don't really feel that way about bringing a character back to life, but I do know this: I really want Roxas, Namine, and Xion to have a very happy ending...

[Awesome Sauce 634]

Doesn't Marvel and DC do this kind of thing all the time?

 

I agree in that Roxas, Xion and Namine shouldn´t be brought back.

[ShadowKeyblade 219]

Well, when they first were killed off/disappeared, we had no idea they were coming back so it didn't ruin the impact. I still don't think it does. Those events still happen, it's just that there's a possibility that they can come back. It's not like very many of them actually "died" per say. Roxas and Namine fused back with Sora and Kairi, so there was still an aspect of them left alive, doesn't seem fair that they can't be their own people when they're still there technically. Hell, even Xion fused back with Roxas, so her existence was still there. It also made a lot of sense that nobodies become themselves again when both their heartless and nobodies are defeated.  The only ones that seemingly had a real death were Riku Replica, who I doubt we'll see, and Eraqus, who may or may not come back due to the heart imprint thing, although I'm betting he won't come back, at least not in full. Doesn't mean those "deaths" aren't still depressing in a sense. Terra, Aqua, and Ven never died, but people still call their story depressing, and Roxas, Xion, and Namine are trapped in a similar way.

[HeartlessAqua 38]

It's a Disney game I expect nonetheless.

The problem with that is that Disney movies feature lots of permanent deaths.

 

Bambi's mom died, Mufasa died, Kerchek died, Tiana's father died, an entire village in Mulan was slaughtered, at least one side kick died (the bug from Princess and the Frog), and many villains died. Pinocchio himself died, and only came back to life because he accomplished the goal he promised to do.

 

Disney is filled with permanent deaths. So when Kingdom Hearts shows that death is meaningless, it cheapens a lot of the thrill and danger.

Edited August 23, 2016 by HeartlessAqua

[Dio Brando 5,810]

 

PLEASE READ THE WHOLE POST BEFORE COMMENTING

 

Kingdom Hearts is my favorite series and I love many things about it. But, the only thing that actually aggravates me about this series is that death is meaningless. Whenever we kill a villain, they always come back by some bullshit method and whenever a good character dies, we get told that there's a way to bring them back. They act like a character dying is sad and they act like a character dying should make us sad or impact us in some way, but then just bring back the character/say the character can be brought back. This makes death absolutely meaningless and makes it so we feel no emotion when a character dies. Yes, we might feel a little emotion since we're seeing a character watch them die get sad and that rubs off on us, but we know that that character can easily come back so it's no where near as sad as it would be.

 

Maleficent dies but comes back because the three fairies remembered her. Oogie Boogie dies but comes back because apparently Maleficent has the ability to bring people back from the dead. Ursula dies but comes back in some weird phantom form because apparently Xehanort has the ability to make that happen. Xion, Roxas, and Namine "die" but we get told that there's a way to bring them back. Eraqus dies but apparently his heart was able to take refuge within Terra. Xehanort, Lea, Isa, Braig, Dilan, Aeleus, Ienzo, and Even are all back because apparently your original self returns if your Heartless and Nobody are destroyed. Turns out Ansem the Wise didn't actually die, he just got sent to the Realm of Darkness for some reason somehow. Xemnas and Ansem Seeker of Darkness died but they're back because time travel.

 

These are the most bullshit methods I've ever heard. Well, I guess the whole original person returning because Heartless/Nobody getting destroyed isn't that bad, but everything else I mentioned is complete bullshit.

 

I remember playing Kingdom Hearts II when I was like 6 and getting very emotional when Roxas and Namine formed back with Sora and Kairi and I remember playing 358/2 Days when I was like 9 and getting very emotional when Xion died. But, it turns out none of that mattered. It turns out they can just come back. What was the point? What was the point of having those emotional scenes if they can just come back? These characters coming back completely destroys and gets rid of my sad emotions for these characters. It completely undermines the emotional experiences I had playing through those games for the first time. Dream Drop Distance completely destroyed the Kingdom Hearts plot in my opinion. Having Disney villains come back by bullshit means isn't that aggravating since they're considered pretty unimportant when compared to the main characters, but when Dream Drop Distance came along and told us that all these characters came back and told us that all these other characters *can* come back, I was speechless. How could they do this? How could they just completely make all these characters I loved's deaths just mean absolutely nothing when they meant so much to me and impacted me so much?

 

Whenever I'd go replay the games and watch Roxas and Namine fuse back with Sora and Kairi or watch Xion die, I'd get emotional. But now, whenever I see those scenes, I feel nothing, because I know that any character can just come back.

 

I've seen people asking "what would ruin KH3 for you?" People reply with things such as "if the gameplay plays like Birth by Sleep or Dream Drop Distance", "if the graphics are bad", "if the final boss is anticlimactic", and "if it turns out Xehanort isn't the true villain", but the only thing that could ruin Kingdom Hearts III for me is if Xion, Roxas, and Namine return. The only thing that could ruin Kingdom Hearts III for me is if they rip those emotional moments from my past right out of my memories. And the sad thing is is I know they are going to do that. Now don't get me wrong, Kingdom Hearts III looks fantastic. Gameplay looks like it might be the most fun I'll ever have playing a game, graphics look great, cutscenes look interesting and exciting, but man, having Xion, Roxas, and Namine return would really be a downer. It wouldn't completely ruin the game for me, but it would definitely leave a substantial bitter taste in my mouth.

 

Am I the only one who feels this way? I can't be, right? I can think of a few other shows/games where a dead character returns and people are furious, so who else here feels the same way about KH? And I have a question for people who don't feel this way: "Why don't you feel this way?" Did you just not get emotional over their deaths to begin with so you won't care if they return?

 

Sorry for the long post. It's just, I haven't seen anyone else feel this way (I've actually only seen people feel the opposite way), so I had to vent and get this out of my system. Please, Square Enix, let Roxas, Namine, and Xion rest in peace.

 

Absolutely agree with you

 

It's the equivalent of bringing Aerith back to life in Final Fantasy VII after she got killed by Sephiroth

 

Any sort of emotional impact is gone by that point because just like Dragon Ball Z it just takes some bullshit contrived writing method to have no one dies in this series

 

Eraqus in particular should've stayed dead 

It's a Disney game I expect nonetheless.

Mufasa and Clayton had some brutal deaths dude

 

And don't even get me started on Hunchback of Notre Dome

I really never cared about all these characters returning from the dead. Regardless, I have one thing to say about it: fanservice. That's all it is. Fans want the characters back, Nomura finds am excuse to put into the lore that makes it possible. Simple as that.

Problem is those excuses are so poorly written and contrived and you just see through it the moment it happens

 

Again as I said above..........imagine Aerith coming back to life in FFVII after Sephiroth killed her

[HeartlessAqua 38]

I personally think resurrection is okay, but it has to feel earned. If a character is brought back to life solely to please people, then I'd probably find it lame and uninteresting. I don't like it when stories pander to audiences at every opportunity. Even if a story is needlessly spiteful, I will prefer that over a story which does exactly what the audience wants with no sense of logic, creativity, or art.

 

But if a character comes back to life in an emotionally and dramatically satisfying way, maybe especially if the story was trying to lead up to that point and the characters fighting for it, then I could enjoy it and even love it. Depends.

 

Though I don't have much trust in Kingdom Hearts because sometimes it can be emotionally powerful, and other times it just feels like a very by the numbers fanfiction. Kingdom Hearts is a fun as hell video game. And as a video game, it should indeed focus primarily on gameplay over story. But since it does spend a lot of time on story, I can say that Kingdom Hearts' story is kind of a hit and miss in quality, so resurrections may be either glorious or ridiculous.

Edited August 23, 2016 by HeartlessAqua

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

Lol, you've never seen DBZ have you? Death is just a minor inconvenience. X)"

[Dave 5,715]

Death doesn't stay permanent because they keep beating up Hades, so he can't do his job and make sure all of the souls stay where they are.

 

If we don't want people to come back, we should stop beating up the God of the Dead.

[Firaga 5,947]

As I've stated before in a different thread: "Death is not a complete consequence in this universe. There are other ways to spawn conflict or drama."

 

That can apply even to a series like DragonBall too. So many people forget how often the DragonBalls are rendered inactive so that they can't be used to solve a particular conflict.

 

Please, Square Enix, let Roxas, Namine, and Xion rest in peace.

 

And undercut the entire point of making them part of "Those Who Must Be Saved?" Do you really want to throw such a giant plot point away (one that the characters in question obviously want instead of just fading away into nonexistence) just to satisfy a death quota? 

Edited September 6, 2016 by Firaga Sensei
Referring to content as "crap"

[Kaweebo 3,617]

I don't actually think it'd ruin anything if Xion came back. She's the only character who otherwise can function by herself entirely. But Roxas and Namine should both stay inside their respective others. Or, Roxas should go into Ventus, one or the other; but I really don't want there to be two Jesse McCartneys running around at the same time. 

[Firaga 5,947]

But Roxas and Namine should both stay inside their respective others. Or, Roxas should go into Ventus, one or the other.

 

But they don't want that. They want hearts.

 

 

I really don't want there to be two Jesse McCartneys running around at the same time. 

 

You say that like it's a bad thing... I mean, uh, I don't have a weird man crush on Jesse McCartney, you do!

 

... I should stop talking.

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

But they don't want that. They want hearts.

 

 

 

You say that like it's a bad thing... I mean, uh, I don't have a weird man crush on Jesse McCartney, you do!

 

... I should stop talking.

Thing is, they have hearts, they just didn't know it because Xemnas lied to them. As soon as they started making their own memories, their hearts formed.

 

@topic. Sure death is great when it's emotional and meaningful, but the deaths in KH only served to futher Xehanort's plans. Sure it was emotional but it also kind of felt cheap, you knwo what I mean? Like there was no purpose aside from helping Xehanort. Personally, I consider it poetic justice for them to come back and help beat him for good.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Isamu_Kuno

[WayfindersDestiny 172]

Bring back Vanitas 2k17.

Edited August 24, 2016 by WayfindersDestiny

[Firaga 5,947]

Thing is, they have hearts, they just didn't know it because Xemnas lied to them. As soon as they started making their own memories, their hearts formed.

 

I meant bodies, not hearts.

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times Kingdom Hearts fans have serious death fetish. It's pretty scary actually lol. Death does equate good story. It is not a necessary element needed to create drama or add layers of depth to a story. Quite frankly, too much death can actually take away from a story. It essentially turns into the same redundancy as not enough death. If characters are constantly dying, people get desensitized to it, and it still ends up meaningless. Plus, how invested are you really going to get into the characters of any series, if you know that people get killed off right and left. Having tons of death for the sake of a mature tone is juvenile and bad writing.

 

If you really want to get technical about it, there is only one KH original character who went through anything remotely close to the finality of death. That character was Riku-Replica. All the other characters were alternative forms of existence, and none of them were human. All of them had ties to their previous existence as humans. So could they ever really "die"? The Nobody/ Heartless revival mechanism is actually pretty sound. It's one of the few retcons of Nomura's, that makes sense and fits into canon. Both of those existences, especially Nobodies, were always portrayed as incomplete. Basic logic would suggest that those existences had the ability of being restored as a whole. Especially because we see that it's possible with Sora/Roxas and Kairi/Namine.

 

On the topic of Roxas and Namine, neither of them "died". Nor can what they went through ever be construed as death.They were simply reunited with their other halves, as the laws of their type of existence constituted. But they, themselves still exist. Why? Because while they walked around in their borrowed shells, they grew their own hearts and created identities of their own. Roxas' physical existence might have belonged to Sora, but he created his own existence, completely separate from Sora. Hence why he still has a presence within Sora, despite "dying". Namine and Xion are no different.

 

Don't even get me started on Xion. I don't get how people can say that Xion's "death"  would be less meaningful if she was revived. Xion's death is made virtually inconsequential by the end of the game, due to the fact that everybody forgets she existed in the first place. Hell, if Xion was excluded from revival, her entire existence would be meaningless. All Xion's existence really accomplished was adding a layer of development to Roxas and adding another person to the list of people to save. Sorry in advance to the Xion fans, but that is the reality of the matter. Apart from that, she didn't really "die" either, she returned to Sora, from whom she was created. Even after being being physically destroyed, she was still had a presence, and was even able to influence Riku. Her final words even imply, that though she's physically gone, she is not truly gone.

 

As for the Disney characters, I think you're really stretching to make your point. Maleficent is a witch, a powerful witch at that. It makes sense that she could easily revive, and have power over death. Look at her minions, if they aren't some form of demons, I don't know what is. Hell Freddy Krueger, one of the most beloved horror icons of all time, revives in the exact same fashion, so it's not unheard of. Also Ursula wasn't dead in Dream Drop Distance, remember Sora and Riku went back in time to before they left Destiny Islands. So she wasn't dead yet.

 

Overall, I think the concept of death is something Nomura has always been careful about. It's one of the few consistencies of the series. Changing it now would be senseless, and ruin the story that he's trying to tell. There is zero point and building up a story about saving and reuniting those who have been lost, then destroying it by senselessly killing off characters.

 

 

 

 

 

Death doesn't stay permanent because they keep beating up Hades, so he can't do his job and make sure all of the souls stay where they are.

 

If we don't want people to come back, we should stop beating up the God of the Dead.

Lol, this so true. Hades is my favorite Disney Villain too lol.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Robbie the Wise

[Elfdemon_ 695]

It's a Disney game I expect nonetheless.

 

People die in Disney movies all the time, so why would a Disney game be any different?

I've always expected for them to come back since the moment they died. Everything else would be dissapointing, because their story is not finished yet. Everyone who says it's because of Disney or fan service, they never understood what KH is about tbh.

 

Just my opinion.

 

What was the point of them dying then? When characters die in stories, it's to get an emotional response out of the audience. If we know that characters can all just come back, then there is no point to characters dying. It's terrible writing.

[The 13th Kenpachi 4,279]

People die in Disney movies all the time, so why would a Disney game be any different?

My bad I kind of slipped up there

[Elfdemon_ 695]

To be honest it doesn't really bother me too much.

 

What I will say however is if you're gonna bring all these chracters back for fanservice you might as well dial it up to 100. As long as I can see the epic grand battle between all these characters at the climax of KH3 I don't care how they bring characters back, just make it awesome.

 

Besides I think some of these characters kinda deserve a happy ending.

 

Having things happen simply for fanservice is terrible writing. There needs to be a PURPOSE to things happening. There needs to be a purpose for characters dying. If they all just come back, then there was no purpose for their deaths.

Well, when they first were killed off/disappeared, we had no idea they were coming back so it didn't ruin the impact. I still don't think it does. Those events still happen, it's just that there's a possibility that they can come back. It's not like very many of them actually "died" per say. Roxas and Namine fused back with Sora and Kairi, so there was still an aspect of them left alive, doesn't seem fair that they can't be their own people when they're still there technically. Hell, even Xion fused back with Roxas, so her existence was still there. It also made a lot of sense that nobodies become themselves again when both their heartless and nobodies are defeated.  The only ones that seemingly had a real death were Riku Replica, who I doubt we'll see, and Eraqus, who may or may not come back due to the heart imprint thing, although I'm betting he won't come back, at least not in full. Doesn't mean those "deaths" aren't still depressing in a sense. Terra, Aqua, and Ven never died, but people still call their story depressing, and Roxas, Xion, and Namine are trapped in a similar way.

 

It not being fair and them not having happy endings is what made it so great. The point of dying in stories is to get an emotional response out of your audience. Emotional responses = being more attached to the story and loving it more because it's impacted you. The point of death is that it's sad! Death is tragic. Death isn't a happy ending. That's what makes it good.

No.

 

Wow. Edgy, much?

 

As I've stated before in a different thread: "Death is not a complete consequence in this universe. There are other ways to spawn conflict or drama."

 

That can apply even to a series like DragonBall too. So many people forget how often the DragonBalls are often rendered inactive so that they can't be used to solve a particular conflict.

 

 

And undercut the entire point of making them part of "Those Who Must Be Saved?" Do you really want to throw such a giant plot point away (one that the characters in question obviously want instead of just fading away into nonexistence) just to satisfy a death quota? 

 

Yes, there are other ways to spawn conflict or drama. Since this is the case, then why do they even have characters die in this series? There is no point to it. They act like we should be sad about it. They act like they're emotional moments, but they aren't since we know they can just come back. It's terrible writing.

 

You're acting like the whole plot point of "Those Who Must Be Saved" has been around the entire time. It hasn't. Dream Drop Distance implemented it. We thought Roxas, Xion, Namine, Axel, etc. were all dead for good before DDD came along!

But they don't want that. They want hearts.

 

 

 

You say that like it's a bad thing... I mean, uh, I don't have a weird man crush on Jesse McCartney, you do!

 

... I should stop talking.

 

They didn't want hearts until DDD said that they did. They had a happy ending in KH2. The whole point of that scene when Roxas and Namine formed back together with Sora and Kairi was to show that they got a happy ending. They get to be together whenever Sora and Kairi are together. They were happy. They had a happy ending, until DDD said that they didn't. 

Edited August 23, 2016 by Elfdemon_