Why new VAs don't invalidate the Rebirth Theory

[ladydualwieldin 212]

So you may have seen me post about this on tumblr, or touch on it briefly in the recent news post, so forgive my laziness for just copy/pasting some of it here. But since Leopardos' and (possibly) Anguis' VAs were confirmed, I've seen an increase in hostility from anti-rebirth theory fans (and disappointment from supporters) claiming that this kills the theory.

 

 

On the contrary, I think this bit of news actually supports it just as well.

 

This is gonna get a bit lengthy, SO let's begin:

 

There are two versions of the theory that I know of: A) that the modern day characters are literally the foretellers reincarnated, and B) they’re the foretellers’ blood descendants and have little to do with the foretellers themselves. For the sake of this discussion, and because I’ve always thought it more likely, I’m going to concentrate on the former option.

 

First off, there’s one very important factor to consider: reincarnation does not equal copy/paste. In some cases, yes, but there are instances in other media where a reincarnated soul and their ancestor are not identical. I think the biggest example is the Legend of Zelda series; even without the graphical differences between games, we know that not all Links and Zeldas look totally alike (different hair colors being the most obvious factor), and they don’t all have the same VAs. On a simpler scale, think of Kagome and Kikyou from Inuyasha. Different voices, different faces, just very similar to one another. (Someone else also brought up Avatar the Last Airbender as an example, but since I'm unfamiliar with it, I'll have to take her word for it. )

 

THAT SAID

 

If the reincarnation bit regarding the foretellers is true, I’m willing to bet that their faces aren’t totally identical to the modern characters’. Rather, they might have their own unique, individual appearances that simply have very striking similarities to the modern characters, which would make their ties obvious without taking the easiest route (I personally like this idea better, since it gives a bigger sense of individuality and avoids a third Ven/Roxas situation but hey, that’s just me).

 

ADDITIONALLY

 

With regards to their VAs, there were a number of people (myself included) who thought Anguis and Leo might be Willa and Jesse putting on different voices. Heck, I still think Vulpes sounds pretty close to Hayden. Also, we know that KH has this trend of using either obscure, rising live actors (Jason Dohring, etc) or big-name live actors (Mark Hamill) as opposed to the super popular, run-of-the-mill VAs that you find in a lot of anime and games (Troy Baker, Yuri Lowenthal, etc). If you look up Anguis’ and Leo’s VAs, Karissa and Kevin, you’ll see that they fall in the obscure category.

 

What’s this mean? It means that KH intentionally went out of its way to scour out some no-name actors (no offense to them) who bear a very close resemblance to the actors they already have.

 

Again, what’s this mean? This goes back to the idea that the foretellers are unique individuals, with their own faces and voices, and that the modern characters – again, IF the theory is true – are not copy-pasted versions, but just very physically similar.

 

This would also suggest that, rather than, say, Anguis simply being “recycled” as an amnesiac in Aqua (as many anti-rebirth theory fans seem to feel), they’re actually both unique characters with their own hearts, minds, memories, etc. Since reincarnation is the basis here, they may share a soul, but this doesn’t make them the same person. It might influence them to be similar, but again, going back to the Legend of Zelda example, this does not make them the same exact person. They’re still influenced by their circumstances, friends, enemies, successes, failures, all that, and they have their own personalities. Each is her own person. In that regard, it’s almost more along the lines of the “descendant” option if you want to look at it that way.

 

So yes, that's my two cents. To sum it up, I think the introduction of new-but-similar-sounding-actors is actually a step towards the rebirth theory being true, if only because it adds a layer of complication that Nomura is pretty famous for by now, and cleverly sidesteps both the issue of their VAs being instantly recognized and their identities spoiled and is more original than having the foretellers and modern characters as carbon copies of one another, and we all know KH is very much about originality.

 

Or, at the very most, we may never receive direct confirmation that reincarnation was a factor, but simply be left to draw that conclusion ourselves based on the similarities between the characters (because making fans speculate is another thing Nomura loves to do, as he's admitted a few times).

 

#things to think about until December

Edited June 29, 2016 by ladydualwieldin

[gingienator 278]

Excellent findings on this!

You make a good point on the whole reincarnation theory.

 

When it comes to the theory, it does sound better for the Foretellers to look more distinguishable from the modern characters

cus like you said, having a third Ven/Roxas person would be really weird and out of place

 

It would be better if they had different features like that one myth where somewhere around the world, there is always someone who would look like you but not exactly identical.

 

And yes, some people might make misinterpretations about the idea of "rebirth" or "reincarnation" because being reborn in another era doesn't mean you'll be a huge copy/paste thing from the original person. Like you said, the person who was "reborn" will share soul but will have completely different memories or ambitions. I was surprised how SE got new actors that are not only different, but, have that hint of similarity with the actors we know for Aqua, Ven, etc. It would be better to go for this direction rather than the Foretellers being a direct copy/paste thing.

[ladydualwieldin 212]

  On 6/29/2016 at 7:15 PM, gingienator said:

Excellent findings on this!You make a good point on the whole reincarnation theory.When it comes to the theory, it does sound better for the Foretellers to look more distinguishable from the modern characters :)cus like you said, having a third Ven/Roxas person would be really weird and out of place xDIt would be better if they had different features like that one myth where somewhere around the world, there is always someone who would look like you but not exactly identical.And yes, some people might make misinterpretations about the idea of "rebirth" or "reincarnation" because being reborn in another era doesn't mean you'll be a huge copy/paste thing from the original person. Like you said, the person who was "reborn" will share soul but will have completely different memories or ambitions. I was surprised how SE got new actors that are not only different, but, have that hint of similarity with the actors we know for Aqua, Ven, etc. It would be better to go for this direction rather than the Foretellers being a direct copy/paste thing.

 

Thanks! Haha, I've built up this idea so much now that I'm really fond of it, so if they do look just like them, I may be a little disappointed. (Although I've been a fan of this theory since I first heard of it, so more facetwins won't be a deal-breaker for me.)

 

And agreed! After Roxas and Ven, especially, (and Kairi/Xion/Namine) I would think it's obvious that Nomura doesn't just "duplicate" characters out of laziness or easy fanservice (whether they're literal physical copies or just something close). It's always plot relevant, so I'm not sure where all the misunderstanding and negativity about this theory come from.

[Nero Kunivas 3,046]

I'm going to be frank: Why? Just, why?

 

I like a good theory just as much as the next bloke, but when they're threatened with being proven wrong or invalid, the grasping at straws reaches: "Taking the piss" levels of straw grasping. I don't think Square give two shits about the idea of the Foretellers being the Ascendants of the Protagonists, especially since it would be a retcon of epic proportions for them to say this.

 

And we all know how everyone feels about retcons and potential retcons in THIS series...

 

Although, in retrospect, I wouldn't put it past Nomura to do this. Makes things more confusing. (The Nobodies Twist was one of his best because, well, it was simple enough: They did have Hearts/the capability to grow them after all.)

[ladydualwieldin 212]

  On 6/29/2016 at 8:28 PM, SuperiorKunivas said:

I'm going to be frank: Why? Just, why?

 

I like a good theory just as much as the next bloke, but when they're threatened with being proven wrong or invalid, the grasping at straws reaches: "Taking the piss" levels of straw grasping. I don't think Square give two shits about the idea of the Foretellers being the Ascendants of the Protagonists, especially since it would be a retcon of epic proportions for them to say this.

 

And we all know how everyone feels about retcons and potential retcons in THIS series...

 

Although, in retrospect, I wouldn't put it past Nomura to do this. Makes things more confusing. (The Nobodies Twist was one of his best because, well, it was simple enough: They did have Hearts/the capability to grow them after all.)

 

We don't know the entire X story, so it's a bit of a stretch to say anything's "grasping" at this point. We don't know all the details or how it'll turn out, so it's equally unfair to assume Square does or doesn't care, especially when this whole plot is very much Nomura's baby and he's spent 12 games and 15 years leading up to this conclusion. Every plot element he introduces has had a point, or presumably will in KH3, and I doubt the undeniable similarities between the Foretellers and modern characters are a coincidence. There ARE no coincidences in this series, although of course that doesn't automatically point to reincarnation, as I said above.

 

And I'm honestly curious, how is this theory retconning anything? I see a lot of complaints about Nomura's past "retcons," but I don't know of any (except the time he said that Nobodies don't age and then took that back later, but to be fair he said that in an interview, so it was technically never canonly stated).

Edited June 29, 2016 by ladydualwieldin

[Nero Kunivas 3,046]

  On 6/29/2016 at 8:42 PM, ladydualwieldin said:

We don't know the entire X story, so it's a bit of a stretch to say anything's "grasping" at this point. We don't know all the details or how it'll turn out, so it's equally unfair to assume Square does or doesn't care, especially when this whole plot is very much Nomura's baby and he's spent 12 games and 15 years leading up to this conclusion. Every plot element he introduces has had a point, or presumably will in KH3.

 

And I'm honestly curious, how is this theory retconning anything? I see a lot of complaints about Nomura's past "retcons," but I don't know of any (except the time he said that Nobodies don't age and then took that back later, but to be fair he said that in an interview, so it was technically never canonly stated).

If anything, I'm mostly questioning the fact that there needs to be topics like this to prevent everyone from losing their shit. I mean, it's a Theory. They're possibilities, it's in the word's definition. If they're proven wrong, unfortunate but there's always others. If proven right, happy days.

 

Nothing until recently has pointed to the heroes having ancestors that could potentially be related to or be the Foretellers themselves, so many might see it as yet another retcon. It's not a personal belief of mine, but many hold that belief, especially due to the...*Sigh*, infamous Ansem twist. People cried to the skies that it was a retcon and that Nomura had no talent etc etc etc. I still hear it to this day.

 

Frankly, it's all a bit mad and I feel that this Topic embodies that madness with it's existence. Truth be told, I like this theory, hell I love it because it sounds brilliant, but it just strikes me as odd that topics that reassure supporters of the theory that it's still plausible at least need to exist.

[ladydualwieldin 212]

  On 6/29/2016 at 8:48 PM, SuperiorKunivas said:

If anything, I'm mostly questioning the fact that there needs to be topics like this to prevent everyone from losing their shit. I mean, it's a Theory. They're possibilities, it's in the word's definition. If they're proven wrong, unfortunate but there's always others. If proven right, happy days.

 

Nothing until recently has pointed to the heroes having ancestors that could potentially be related to or be the Foretellers themselves, so many might see it as yet another retcon. It's not a personal belief of mine, but many hold that belief, especially due to the...*Sigh*, infamous Ansem twist. People cried to the skies that it was a retcon and that Nomura had no talent etc etc etc. I still hear it to this day.

 

Frankly, it's all a bit mad and I feel that this Topic embodies that madness with it's existence. Truth be told, I like this theory, hell I love it because it sounds brilliant, but it just strikes me as odd that topics that reassure supporters of the theory that it's still plausible at least need to exist.

 

If it's any consolation, I didn't make the post to "calm people down" or reassure anybody (although even if I did, I don't see why this should bug anyone). I made it because I thought it was an interesting twist that may very well happen and I was curious if anyone had any points to add, or even any legitimate rebuttals. Even if it's NOT canon in the end, I still enjoy discussing these possibilities because it's fun, and I'm now really fond of this possibility.

 

Also, let's break this retcon business down, as defined by Google:

 

retcon: a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.

 

Just because nothing has pointed to the characters having relations to the Foretellers doesn't mean it's a retcon. A retcon would be if something previously said that they are NOT related to the Foretellers in any way, or if some piece of information existed against which this theory could be contrasted to say "oh, look! this is a contradiction!" The theory isn't a contradiction, it's a plot development. The word "retcon" is used much too loosely these days and rarely in the right context. The Ansem thing can't be a retcon, either, IMO, because there's nothing in earlier canon to contradict it; it was a development.

[Nero Kunivas 3,046]

  On 6/29/2016 at 8:57 PM, ladydualwieldin said:

If it's any consolation, I didn't make the post to "calm people down" or reassure anybody (although even if I did, I don't see why this should bug anyone). I made it because I thought it was an interesting twist that may very well happen and I was curious if anyone had any points to add, or even any legitimate rebuttals. Even if it's NOT canon in the end, I still enjoy discussing these possibilities because it's fun, and I'm now really fond of this possibility.

 

Also, let's break this retcon business down, as defined by Google:

 

retcon: a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.

 

Just because nothing has pointed to the characters having relations to the Foretellers doesn't mean it's a retcon. A retcon would be if something previously said that they are NOT related to the Foretellers in any way, or if some piece of information existed against which this theory could be contrasted to say "oh, look! this is a contradiction!" The theory isn't a contradiction, it's a plot development. The word "retcon" is used much too loosely these days and rarely in the right context. The Ansem thing can't be a retcon, either, IMO, because there's nothing in earlier canon to contradict it; it was a development.

That's fair enough. It just bugged me a little, not sure why, but I felt it had to be said at the time.

 

And I agree completely about the term retcon being so thrown about needlessly, but if the KH Fanbase as an entity has proven anything is that it's unreasonable, inconsiderate and quick to rage. I'm not saying that applies to you, me or anyone here, but there are many bad examples.

 

Plus, the Ansem Twist was popularized as a "bad retcon" by Joshua Burner, aka: joshscorcher, who while I love him as a YouTuber, I utterly disagree with him on that, even that he's flat out wrong.

[ladydualwieldin 212]

  On 6/29/2016 at 9:39 PM, SuperiorKunivas said:

 if the KH Fanbase as an entity has proven anything is that it's unreasonable, inconsiderate and quick to rage. I'm not saying that applies to you, me or anyone here, but there are many bad examples.

 

I can agree with that wholeheartedly. It's not the fandom as a whole, but I've been raged at plenty of times for simple opinions. it's a sad thing.

[gingienator 278]

  On 6/29/2016 at 8:06 PM, ladydualwieldin said:

Thanks! Haha, I've built up this idea so much now that I'm really fond of it, so if they do look just like them, I may be a little disappointed. (Although I've been a fan of this theory since I first heard of it, so more facetwins won't be a deal-breaker for me.)

 

And agreed! After Roxas and Ven, especially, (and Kairi/Xion/Namine) I would think it's obvious that Nomura doesn't just "duplicate" characters out of laziness or easy fanservice (whether they're literal physical copies or just something close). It's always plot relevant, so I'm not sure where all the misunderstanding and negativity about this theory come from.

 

ahaha same

I love the theory too!

 

and yes! Roxas and Ven look identical but they have some small distinguishable features from each other. {Like their faces and dem eyebrows ( e u e )}

and for Kairi, Namine, and Xion, they look identical but they have obvious different aspects.

It should definitely be plot relevant if the Foretellers end up looking like everybody

 

Really great addition to the theory tho! ; u ;

[ladydualwieldin 212]

  On 6/30/2016 at 12:38 AM, gingienator said:

ahaha same

I love the theory too!

 

and yes! Roxas and Ven look identical but they have some small distinguishable features from each other. {Like their faces and dem eyebrows ( e u e )}

and for Kairi, Namine, and Xion, they look identical but they have obvious different aspects.

It should definitely be plot relevant if the Foretellers end up looking like everybody

 

Really great addition to the theory tho! ; u ;

 

Definitely! And if the plot finds a way for the Foretellers to still be alive somehow or return from the dead via ~heart shenanigans~, that would be doubly interesting. :|a (I'm not counting on that, personally, but WHO KNOWS...)

 

thank you! :> 

[gingienator 278]

  On 6/30/2016 at 2:01 AM, ladydualwieldin said:

Definitely! And if the plot finds a way for the Foretellers to still be alive somehow or return from the dead via ~heart shenanigans~, that would be doubly interesting. :|a (I'm not counting on that, personally, but WHO KNOWS...) thank you! :>

yup! still feel like they're alive somehowthat old mansion with the unicorn statues looks like it's got some significanceand your welcome