Continuing down this rabbit hole (KH Rebirth theory)

[Kaweebo 3,617]

To recap, the KH Rebirth theory posits the idea that each member of the Foretellers is a version of characters we know and love from the KH series based on their respective color schemes and designs. From top to bottom, Unicornus is Riku, Ursus Terra, Anguis Aqua, Leopardos Ventus and Vulpes Kairi. Obviously, there's a very important character that's been left out of this: Sora! In a previous thread, I figured that maybe Sora is the character known as Ephemera. Obviously, that leaves out a few other characters but Ephemera and the Foretellers seem to be the most important ones (along with the mysterious man in the black robes)

 

As is obvious from the fact that each of the Foretellers' names come from the seven deadly sins, if they are indeed versions of characters we already know, then they are also darker versions of characters we already know. Which means they're put in situations that are similar to what we've seen, but under much more hostile circumstances.

 

Now, the most poignant line that leads to this subversion of character that I've seen is the Ursus Foreteller's - from now on, 'Aced' - line: 

 

"We need to defy the Master's teachings to protect the world!" 

 

Now, whatever 'the Master's teachings' are, it's not a stretch to assume that means they must protect (and collect) the light. Also known as 'lux'. After all, that's what we've been doing in the Unchained X game, right? They've gathered Keyblade wielders together in order to collect it. However, much like Terra before him, it may be that Aced believes that collecting and protecting light isn't good enough - they need the power of darkness in order to save the world. He seems very intent on this position, even going so far as to incapacitate (if not outright murder) the Leopardos Foreteller, Gula. 

 

To the other Foretellers, Aced is the instigator. The one straying away from the path. Much like how Aqua and Master Eraqus were not sure if Terra wasn't succumbing to his desire for darkness. Obviously, the situations differ in each respective character's demeanor. Terra felt the pull of darkness, but every time he used it, he felt terrible for defying Eraqus. However, Aced believes he is justified in rebelling against his Master's teachings.

 

Another aspect of that confrontation with Gula is that it mirrors that of the struggle between Ventus and Terra, though obviously more violently. Ventus, too, was afraid Terra would fall to darkness in BBS. It's possible that Gula suspected the same of Aced (given his demeanor) and found him doing something wrong, resulting in a fight that leaves him injured.

 

Seeing this is Ava, the Vulpes Foreteller. She seems distraught by all the fighting as it is and watching two of her fellows killing each other must be horrifying. Ava is also, so far, the only Foreteller to ever interact with the regular Keyblade wielder, Ephemera. Is it possible that their interactions here set the stage for the eventual relationship between Sora and Kairi, even if barely?

 

The Unicornus Foreteller, Ira, through it all, appears to be trying to find more information from whatever source he can. His copy of the Book of Prophecies and even a mysterious hooded man. Much like how Aced could possibly be swaying from the path through coercion (perhaps he's meeting with the same man) it's possible that Ira is conversing with him too, though more for informational purposes than anything else.

 

Which, of course, leads us to the idea that the hooded man is some form of Xehanort. It makes sense, the coat is a symbol of the Organization and of him. It's possible the hooded man is playing sides, trying to turn everyone against each other for his own purposes, much like how Master Xehanort (and Ansem, SoD) played on Terra and Riku's feelings and turning them slowly to darkness.

 

There isn't much we know about Invi, the Anguis Foreteller, but she seems responsible just like Aqua and most of her scenes involve interacting with Aced.(Though she's there when Ira is reading from the Book) Much like how Terra and Aqua clash in BBS, so too do their other versions in Chi. 

 

To sum up, I think the events that lead up to the Keyblade War are an amalgamation of events concerning our main characters in the games. I think the hooded man is playing everybody and has convinced Aced to turn his back on his Master's teachings and fooling Ira into believing he must embrace war because it's 'not possible' to stop it. Invi and Gula both fight with Aced, though only Gula loses so far as we know, either injured or dead. (similar to Ventus's fate at the end of BBS) And Ava, the Kairi representation, is trying to find alternatives to war and asking the people of her Union to flee. Everybody dies and are reincarnated into more hopeful incarnations. 

 

Or this could all be bullcrap and none of it matters. 

[AzureAce 544]

I have a way to completely discredit this theory, sorry to burst your bubble.

 

But if we were going by rebirth theory, it would mean all characters are the same as their future selves. And if that is the case, they should have the same voice actor/actress. Meaning Anguis should be voice by Willa, Leopardos by Jesse, Unicornis by David, Vulpeus by Hayden and Ursus by Jason. Which not a single one of them voice the Foretellers. Completely disproving the theory. I see where you're going with it, and it would have been very likely if they had the same voice actors/actresses, but they don't. And that is ultimately the downfall of the theory.

[Shimmy 458]

I fancy/agree with the idea towards the end of your post that the traitor prophecy is bs. The more I played the pc version the more it occurred to me that the paranoia is the main source of excitement in the game. In the game we see the suspicion the foretellers have, heck the suspicion we have. The trailer does a good job showing just how much the paranoia between the foretellers is tearing them apart. I rarely have an opinion on much of anything, but honestly, I highly suspect the prophecy of being garbage at this point. 

 

Regarding the actual /rebirth/ part. I'm still a bit hesitant to say this is a case of resurrection. To be perfectly honest, thus far the parallels with the foretellers and their respective resurrection (ie. Terra vs Aqua/Aced vs. Invi etc) is very reminiscent to... the parallels between trios. So basically standard Kingdom Hearts parallelism. That being said the relationship between the trios is usually beyond simply coincidence, and there's often a spiritual connection between the characters. What I mean by this rambling mess is that I'm inclined to believe these parallels are intentional and are fine evidence, but I don't necessarily believe that it means downright resurrection.

I have a way to completely discredit this theory, sorry to burst your bubble.

 

But if we were going by rebirth theory, it would mean all characters are the same as their future selves. And if that is the case, they should have the same voice actor/actress. Meaning Anguis should be voice by Willa, Leopardos by Jesse, Unicornis by David, Vulpeus by Hayden and Ursus by Jason. Which not a single one of them voice the Foretellers. Completely disproving the theory. I see where you're going with it, and it would have been very likely if they had the same voice actors/actresses, but they don't. And that is ultimately the downfall of the theory.

I would by no means think of myself as an avid supporter of this theory, but admittedly I feel as if discrediting this theory purely through voice actors is a bit rash. Xemnas is- for the most part- Terra. But alas Xemnas's ridiculously deep voice is pretty far from Terra's own. Of course there's complications via Xehanort influence (and probably casting decisions because if Terra sounded like that in bbs I probably would have lost my shit), but I still argue that different voices haven't destroyed connections between characters in the past. That being said this is resurrection which is it's whole new monster. I don't know the rules it has to follow nor do I claim to. And there are a lot of other arguments against this theory too. I'm just spouting nonsense by this point lol

[AzureAce 544]

I would by no means think of myself as an avid supporter of this theory, but admittedly I feel as if discrediting this theory purely through voice actors is a bit rash. Xemnas is- for the most part- Terra. But alas Xemnas's ridiculously deep voice is pretty far from Terra's own. Of course there's complications via Xehanort influence (and probably casting decisions because if Terra sounded like that in bbs I probably would have lost my shit), but I still argue that different voices haven't destroyed connections between characters in the past. That being said this is resurrection which is it's whole new monster. I don't know the rules it has to follow nor do I claim to. And there are a lot of other arguments against this theory too. I'm just spouting nonsense by this point lol

And thereinlies the problem with the theory. Xehanort is supposed to have multiple vessels and thus voice actors. The whole premise behind the rebirth theory is that the characters we know now once existed as Foretellers. And by that logic, them existing in the past as Foretellers would mean they have the same look and voice. So until we actually get to see their faces, I'm in no way believing this theory because of that massive gaping hole in its logic.

[Shimmy 458]

And thereinlies the problem with the theory. Xehanort is supposed to have multiple vessels and thus voice actors. The whole premise behind the rebirth theory is that the characters we know now once existed as Foretellers. And by that logic, them existing in the past as Foretellers would mean they have the same look and voice. So until we actually get to see their faces, I'm in no way believing this theory because of that massive gaping hole in its logic.

There are loads of problems with this theory. But I try to open minded. And admittedly if Kingdom Hearts ever did do resurrection/something similar (which the series has done stuff similar to resurrection or rather a spiritual successor via Sora, Ventus, and Roxas), I would stray from the theory in the sense that they don't have to be the same damn person. I wasn't arguing that them having different voices doesn't completely discredit resurrection (I don't exactly know how resurrection would be implemented), I was arguing that them having different voices doesn't completely discredit connection. 

 

I consider myself indifferent to rebirth because I don't think that these similarities necessarily guarantee past lives. I also don't consider myself an avid rebirth theory critic because I don't think these similarities are completely coincidental. The parallels are there and Kingdom Hearts loves it's parallels. 

I just feel as if there's multiple ways then just pro-rebirth or anti-rebirth to look at the situation to be honest. 

Edited June 8, 2016 by Shimmy

[Kaweebo 3,617]

And if that is the case, they should have the same voice actor/actress. 

No, they shouldn't. They're not exact copies, just reincarnations, which can mean anything. As long as they share traits, it still works. It still doesn't discredit the design similarities or now the similarities in their personalities. (Aced is brash like Terra, Ava more peaceable, Invi responsible, etc.)

 

I consider myself indifferent to rebirth because I don't think that these similarities necessarily guarantee past lives. I also don't consider myself avid rebirth theory critic because I don't think these similarities are completely coincidental. The parallels are there and Kingdom Hearts loves it's parallels. 

I just feel as if there's multiple ways then just pro-rebirth or anti-rebirth to look at the situation to be honest. 

 

I don't believe the Rebirth theory is 100% exactly like it looks to me. I refuse to believe the way they look is all coincidence, however. There's some correlation between the Foretellers and our main characters and reincarnation seems the most likely option. It could mean anything, though. I just think it's fun to speculate.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Kaweebo

[Valhite 168]

Is it just me, or the Hooded Man sounds and acts like, Xigbar/Braig ? Is this his true goal?

Edited June 8, 2016 by Valhite

[Kaweebo 3,617]

Is it just me, or the Hooded Man sounds and acts like, Xigbar/Braig ? Is this his true goal?

He does remind me of Braig/Xigbar a little bit. 

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

I say this on every thread about this. Even if the rebirth theory is true, Sora is not part of it, or at least he's not the reincarnation of anyone special, because Sora is always supposed to represent the normal boy. That's why he wasn't made a Master in 3D (but of course then the fanbase got angry and Nomura decided to make him one by the time of KH3) Being a Master I think is fine, because it doesn't make him any less of a normal boy, as literally anyone can become an expert in their field with enough practice, hard work and dedication, but if he was someone special like a Keyblade Weilder in a past life, that, for me, would completly subvert the Normal Boy image they're going for.Though I have to admit, Gula did sound an awful lot like Jesse McCartny trying to hide his voice.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Isamu_Kuno

[Kaweebo 3,617]

but if he was someone special like a Keyblade Weilder in a past life, that, for me, would completly subvert the Normal Boy image they're going for.Though I have to admit, Gula did sound an awful lot like Jesse McCartny trying to hide his voice.

Everybody was a Keyblade wielder in the past, though. If Sora is Ephemera (or really, anybody from the past) he'd still be 'normal' because everybody had one. The only difference is he'd get one in this new life as well by the same virtue of just being in the right place at the right time. 

[SkyEmerald 73]

If not their past lives then the foretellers could also be their descendants. With Ava being either Kairi's Grandmother who somehow managed to live a long time, or an even farther back ancestor.

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

Everybody was a Keyblade wielder in the past, though. If Sora is Ephemera (or really, anybody from the past) he'd still be 'normal' because everybody had one. The only difference is he'd get one in this new life as well by the same virtue of just being in the right place at the right time. 

Not everybody. Keyblade weilders where more common yes, but not every single person was one. Granted we havn't seen many non-weilders, but it's highly unlikly every person had a strong enough heart. The fact that they use the term Keyblade Weilder shows that there are some who can't weild becaus eif everyone was one, why not just say "Person" or "someone"?

Edited June 9, 2016 by Isamu_Kuno

[Kaweebo 3,617]

Not everybody. Keyblade weilders where more common yes, but not every single person was one. Granted we havn't seen many non-weilders, but it's highly unlikly every person had a strong enough heart. The fact that they use the term Keyblade Weilder shows that there are some who can't weild becaus eif everyone was one, why not just say "Person" or "someone"?

They were common enough to the point that there was a war featuring thousands upon thousands of wielders. I'd say that'd make Ephemera pretty common considering we don't know how many people exist in the 'world' of KHchi. Even if there were plenty of non-wielding people (and I don't doubt there probably were), that still doesn't mean Sora comes from anybody important. Ephemera is just some kid who decides to investigate what's going on of his own volition, just like how Sora is just a kid who happens to get swept up in an adventure that sees him saving the universe, twice.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Kaweebo

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

They were common enough to the point that there was a war featuring thousands upon thousands of wielders. I'd say that'd make Ephemera pretty common considering we don't know how many people exist in the 'world' of KHchi. Even if there were plenty of non-wielding people (and I don't doubt there probably were), that still doesn't mean Sora comes from anybody important. Ephemera is just some kid who decides to investigate what's going on of his own volition, just like how Sora is just a kid who happens to get swept up in an adventure that sees him saving the universe, twice.

Yeah, but even if Weilders where more common thant normal people, that fits with Sora too, becasue what makes his special is the fact that he's not. Compared to the other main characters, he's the oddity, a normal boy surrounded by specal people.

[Guest]

I say this on every thread about this. Even if the rebirth theory is true, Sora is not part of it, or at least he's not the reincarnation of anyone special, because Sora is always supposed to represent the normal boy. That's why he wasn't made a Master in 3D (but of course then the fanbase got angry and Nomura decided to make him one by the time of KH3) Being a Master I think is fine, because it doesn't make him any less of a normal boy, as literally anyone can become an expert in their field with enough practice, hard work and dedication, but if he was someone special like a Keyblade Weilder in a past life, that, for me, would completly subvert the Normal Boy image they're going for.Though I have to admit, Gula did sound an awful lot like Jesse McCartny trying to hide his voice.

 

But isn't Ephemera normal too? he's represented as a "player character". He's no destined key, Keyblade master or special boy. He's just as ordinary as Sora is.

 

But with the rebirth/reincarnation theory, I still believe in it... partially. I just don't believe that they're direct associations with the hero characters, rather, the hero characters develop traits and mannerisms associated with said Fortellers. Like the similarities between Ursus and Terra's betrayal with their comrades.

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

But isn't Ephemera normal too? he's represented as a "player character". He's no destined key, Keyblade master or special boy. He's just as ordinary as Sora is.

 

But with the rebirth/reincarnation theory, I still believe in it... partially. I just don't believe that they're direct associations with the hero characters, rather, the hero characters develop traits and mannerisms associated with said Fortellers. Like the similarities between Ursus and Terra's betrayal with their comrades.

Actually, no, the fact that he's "one of the chosen" means he is special, just like any other wilder besides Sora, rather than someone who just fell into it. It seems liek eveyone else was born with the potential already inside them, where sora had to develop his heart in order to keep it.. All of the weilders in x are special by virtue of beign chosen by the Keyblade, where as Sora had to earn it. Sora represents a paraox wherein beign normal is what makes him special. He's abnormally normal, extroardinarily ordinary, 

Edited June 9, 2016 by Isamu_Kuno

[Guest]

Actually, no, the fact that he's "one of the chosen" mean he is special, like Terra Aqua or Ven, rather than someone who just fell into it like Sora. All of the weilders in x are special by virtue of beign chosen by the Keyblade, where as Sora had to earn it.

 

Sora is a character who harbor's the heart of Ventus. A previous Keyblade Wielder who was labelled as the X-Blade by Master Xehanort. That's special, but despite that, that didn't really change Sora's circumstance of gaining the Keyblade. Just because Sora has an affiliation with Ephemera doesn't really mean he's not any less ordinary. He has connections to a bunch of characters anyway.

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

Sora is a character who harbor's the heart of Ventus. A previous Keyblade Wielder who was labelled as the X-Blade by Master Xehanort. That's special, but despite that, that didn't really change Sora's circumstance of gaining the Keyblade. Just because Sora has an affiliation with Ephemera doesn't really mean he's not any less ordinary. He has connections to a bunch of characters anyway.

Everyone else seems to be born with the potential to wield, hell, the Keyblade recognized Riku's potential when he was just 5 years old. It recognized Kairi's when she was 4! Butr in Sora's case, the Keyblade wasn't reacting to him at first, it was reactign to Ventus and Sora had to prove his worth. If the rebirth theory is proven true, that makes it likely that the others where born with that potential due to being weilders in their past lives. If Sora shares that same trait, it does change the circumstances of gaining a Keyblade, at making Sora special will take away what makes him, well, special.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Isamu_Kuno

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

Everyone else seems to be born with the potential to wield, hell, the Keyblade recognized Riku's potential when he was just 5 years old. It recognized Kairi's when she was 4! Butr in Sora's case, the Keyblade wasn't reacting to him at first, it was reactign to Ventus and Sora had to prove his worth. If the rebirth theory is proven true, that makes it likely that the others where born with that potential due to being weilders in their past lives. If Sora shares that same trait, it does change the circumstances of gaining a Keyblade, at making Sora special will take away what makes him, well, special.

Ventus was a non factor when it came to Sora getting the Keyblade. The Keyblade in question was called forth by Riku's heart, but the Keyblade saw that Riku had given in to the darkness. As such the Keyblade passed instead to Sora because it recognized he already had the necessary qualities to wield it. The only effect Ventus' heart had on Sora is that it allowed him to dual wield. Sora was never officially chosen, but he was always going to get a Keyblade.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Robbie the Wise

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

Ventus was a non factor when it came to Sora getting the Keyblade. The Keyblade in question was called forth by Riku's heart, but the Keyblade saw that Riku had given in to the darkness. As such the Keyblade passed instead to Sora because it recognized he already had the necessary qualities to wield it. The only effect Ventus' heart had on Sora is that it allowed him to dual wield. Sora was never officially chosen, but he was always going to get a Keyblade.

Ven's heart was the only reason Sora could even hold a Keyblade in the first place. Had he not have had Ven's heart inside him at the time, he would have never been able to use the Keyblade, and thus, never earned the right to keep it. Without Ven's heart the Kingdom Key would have dematerialized within seconds of Sora touching it, just like it does with every non-wielder. Sora did not have the qualifications at first, he earned the right to it by strengthening his heart through all the friends he made and experirances he had duing his journey, Whereas Riku weakened his heart by abandoning those same things in favor of darkness.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Isamu_Kuno

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

Vens heart was the only reason Sora could even hold a Keyblade in the first place. Had he not have had Ven's heart inside him at the time, we would have never been able to use the Kyblade, and thus, never earned the right to kep it.

 

Nope, Sora's ability to wield came from his own natural qualities. He held all the necessary qualities to wield the Keyblade and that's why he was able to use it. Nomura has confirmed multiple times that Sora's abilities were not inherited from anyone.

 

Does not the Keyblade itself choose its owner?

Nomura: The Keyblade reacts to the rightful owner’s heart and appears to them. Even though it was definitely Riku who called the Keyblade towards him, the reason why Sora was able to wield it was because he also had the right qualities too.

 

So, it’s not that “once Sora’s story is over the story of a new hero will begin”, but that the series will always have Sora as the hero, isn’t it? 

 

Nomura: Yeah. One of the concepts of the series is that the hero Sora isn’t some special being, but a normal boy. Sure, his heart is connected to Ventus and the others, but other than that, he’s a normal kid that could have come from anywhere, that hasn’t inherited anything from anyone. I want to make Sora a character that will give the player the feeling that “even if I’m not some special being, I have the possibility buried inside of connecting with many others to accomplish things”.

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

Nope, Sora's ability to wield came from his own natural qualities. He held all the necessary qualities to wield the Keyblade and that's why he was able to use it. Nomura has confirmed multiple times that Sora's abilities were not inherited from anyone.

 

Does not the Keyblade itself choose its owner?[/size]Nomura[/size]: The Keyblade reacts to the rightful owner’s heart and appears to them. Even though it was definitely Riku who called the Keyblade towards him, the reason why Sora was able to wield it was because he also had the right qualities too.[/size]

 

So, it’s not that “once Sora’s story is over the story of a new hero will begin”, but that the series will always have Sora as the hero, isn’t it? Nomura: Yeah. One of the concepts of the series is that the hero Sora isn’t some special being, but a normal boy. Sure, his heart is connected to Ventus and the others, but other than that, he’s a normal kid that could have come from anywhere, that hasn’t inherited anything from anyone. I want to make Sora a character that will give the player the feeling that “even if I’m not some special being, I have the possibility buried inside of connecting with many others to accomplish things”.

Not what I'm saying. I,m saying he built up the qualities that allow him to weild over time rather than having the from the onset, not that he got them from someone else. But at DI, he didn't have those qualities, he gained them throughout his quest. Edited June 9, 2016 by Isamu_Kuno

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

Not what I'm saying. Im saying he built up those qualities over time rather than having the from the onset

This quote is referencing when he first obtained the Keyblade. Meaning that he already had the right qualities to wield the Keyblade from the first time we are introduced to Sora. Sora did have to earn the right to keep the Keyblade, that is true. But that's because that particular Keyblade did not belong to him at the time. But as far as being able to wield it, he already had the qualities necessary to do so.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Robbie the Wise

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

This quote is referencing when he first obtained the Keyblade. Meaning that he already had the right qualities to wield the Keyblade from the first time we are introduced to Sora. Sora did have to earn the right to keep the Keyblade, that is true. But that's because that particular Keyblade did not belong to him at the time. But as far as being able to wield it, he already had the qualities necessary to do so.

Well, I have to accept Nomura's word. But that brings into question how exactly Sora is a normal boy when he always had the exact same qualities all these "special" people have? "He's just a normal kid that could have come from anywhere" how does this not also apply to Riku, Terra Aqua Ven, or even Eraqus? They could have all been regular kids before getting keyblades.Also, it seems liek Nomura wrote himself a "get out of jail free" card here in regards to dual wileding. Who's to say that, because Sora had the right qualities from the get go, he'd be able to Dual wield even without ven by sommoning both the Kingdom Key, and the Keyblade called by his own heart.

[ladydualwieldin 212]

And thereinlies the problem with the theory. Xehanort is supposed to have multiple vessels and thus voice actors. The whole premise behind the rebirth theory is that the characters we know now once existed as Foretellers. And by that logic, them existing in the past as Foretellers would mean they have the same look and voice. So until we actually get to see their faces, I'm in no way believing this theory because of that massive gaping hole in its logic.

 

Ah, see, I thought Anguis and Ava definitely sounded like Willa (just with a higher pitch) and Hayden, respectively. Also--

 

Though I have to admit, Gula did sound an awful lot like Jesse McCartny trying to hide his voice.

 

^this. If you listen to Jesse's role as Robin in Young Justice, Gula isn't much of a stretch. As for Ira and Aced, we simply don't know how David Gallagher and Jason Dohring sound when they deepen their voices, so it could very well be them (the difference between Sora and Vanitas, anyone?).

 

Additionally, if you watch the Japanese trailer, the VAs do seem to match up with the Rebirth Theory (although I wouldn't bet my life on it since I'm not Japanese and I can't distinguish voices as well as I could in my native language), so it doesn't make sense that they would cast Willa, Hayden, and Jesse only to skip over the other two, especially when Jason was already there voicing Terra.

 

Or there may be another reason for switching VAs, but I agree that different voices don't kill the theory. Aced and Ira could just be older than their rebirth counterparts and thus needed more mature sounding voices, even.