KHBbS What is "Will"?

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

After playing through Terra's story for the third time (second on 2.5) I find myself wondering. We where told in KH2 that a person is made up of 3 things, heart, body and soul. where does "will" play into that? Clearly its a separate entity from any of those, as Lingering Will is able to operate autonomously after Xehanort invaded Terra's heart and took over his body and soul.We can also assume that Lingering Sentiment is a similar entity, a being made up of something Vanitas left behind. "Will" is also mentioned in regards to Nobodies. So I'm wondering, what role does the "will" play in a complete person?

 

Also, did anyone else encounter a KH2 style Reaction Command sequence in the battle between Terra and Master Xehanort? Because this is the first time it's ever happened to me.

 

Oops, I just realized I put this under 1.5 rather than 2.5, could a mod move it for me please?

Edited January 4, 2016 by Isamu_Kuno

[outbackjim21 83]

I don't know why everyone fights me on this subject, buts it's pretty obvious this point in the franchise that will, mind, and soul are interchangeable in context. Every time xehanort talked about the three components especially at the final fight between LW and terranort he uses the word mind not soul, later in 3D xigbar talks about filling the true 13 with the same heart and mind. I mean come on, thematically it makes sense in that in KH3 we will see how these two concepts work seeing as in each numbered title has talked about the three components in relation to the heart. In KH 1 it's about simply defining the heart,in 2 it was about the body in relation to heart, so in 3 we most likely will see how the mind/soul/will relates to the heart, which makes sense since both constructs are metaphysical in nature

Also,with 3D literally being a prologue to 3, and with the concept of the mind being thrown around every other scene, I think that backs up my theory of the mind playing a significant role next title,only thing we are missing are xehanort/ansem reports to back it up.

Edited January 4, 2016 by outbackjim21

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

I don't know why everyone fights me on this subject, buts it's pretty obvious this point in the franchise that will, mind, and soul are interchangeable in context. Every time xehanort talked about the three components especially at the final fight between LW and terranort he uses the word mind not soul, later in 3D xigbar talks about filling the true 13 with the same heart and mind. I mean come on, thematically it makes sense in that in KH3 we will see how these two concepts work seeing as in each numbered title has talked about the three components in relation to the heart. In KH 1 it's about simply defining the heart,in 2 it was about the body in relation to heart, so in 3 we most likely will see how the mind/soul/will relates to the heart, which makes sense since both constructs are metaphysical in nature

But if Terra's soul left his body top inhabit his armor, his body would have died, leaving both Xehanort's and Terra's hearts trapped in a corpse, unable to move and carry out Xehanort's plans. "When the soul leaves the body, life gives way to death, but what about when the heart leaves?" The soul doesn't travel with the heart, it stays with the body as because that's what Nobodies are, the body and soul left behind. Will/mind must be a separate entity from the other three if it can exist independently.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Isamu_Kuno

[outbackjim21 83]

But if that was Terra's soul, he would be dead. "When the soul leaves the body, life gives way to death, but what about when the heart leaves?" The soul doesn't travel with the heart, it stays with the body as because that's when Nobodies are, the body and soul left behind. Will/mind must be a separate entity from the other three if it can exist independently.

if xehanort can split his heart amongst 13 different people there's nothing stopping the soul from being split up as well, ansem speaks in reference to when a person loses his heart unwillingly, but he is confused by the concept of keeping your ego when you give it up willingly, just like how that wasn't explained until 2, same can be said for if the soul does have more things to offer in 3. And let's not forget, ansem has been wrong before, mostly due to retcons, but he has been wrong.And if anything, lingering will is a perverted version of a nobody in that the soul was kicked out of the original body and went into something it was familiar with and due the intense rage that terra had when this happened, lingering will grew a heart almost instantly, which is why it was able to use a keyblade at the same effiency as a master seeing as only those with hearts can use keyblades. But we won't really know jack about the mind or soul until 3 at this point. Edited January 4, 2016 by outbackjim21

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

if xehanort can split his heart amongst 13 different people there's nothing stopping the soul from being split up as well, ansem speaks in reference to when a person loses his heart unwillingly, but he is confused by the concept of keeping your ego when you give it up willingly, just like how that wasn't explained until 2, same can be said for if the soul does have more things to offer in 3. And if anything, lingering will is a perverted version of a nobody in that the soul was kicked out of the original body and went into something it was familiar with and due the intense rage that terra had when this happened, lingering will grew a heart almost instantly, which is why it was able to use a keyblade at the same effiency as a master seeing as only those with hearts can use keyblades. But we won't really know jack about the mind or soul until 3 at this point.

the problem is if anyone soul left their body, they'd be dead. If Xehnaort transferred his soul along with his heart, his original body would have died, not just disappeared.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Isamu_Kuno

[outbackjim21 83]

the problem is if anyone soul left their body, they'd be dead. If Xehnaort transferred his soul along with his heart, his original body would have died, not just disappeared.

death doesn't formally exist in the KHnuniverse though, we have never legitimately seen anyone "die" they simply "go to sleep" and wait to be awaken by sora. Nomura has gone on record to say that. Either he means we will never see a character die, or what I just mentioned being equivalent to death, but as I just suggested is that xehanort split his soul or maybe even terra split his soul to be put into LW to fight back, either way, someone, or maybe both, split it and there are currently no rules saying you can't.

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

death doesn't formally exist in the KHnuniverse though, we have never legitimately seen anyone "die" they simply "go to sleep" and wait to be awaken by sora. Nomura has gone on record to say that. Either he means we will never see a character die, or what I just mentioned being equivalent to death, but as I just suggested is that xehanort split his soul or maybe even terra split his soul to be put into LW to fight back, either way, someone, or maybe both, split it and there are currently no rules saying you can't.

That's because only the heart has ever left, not the soul. Again, "When the soul leaves the body, life gives way to death" Also, the Underworld exists and Auron is dead.The fact that no one has ever died means that their soul has never left their body, which means Will/mind is a different thing. And in Terra's case, Xehanort didn't split his heart, he removed the whole thing and transferred it to Terra, if he did the same with his soul, his body would be dead. He would have had to transfer his heart while only splitting his soul for him and Terra not to be and we have absolutely no indication whatsoever that the Keyblade is capable of affecting the soul in any way.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Isamu_Kuno

[outbackjim21 83]

That's because only the heart has ever left, not the soul. Again, "When the soul leaves the body, life gives way to death" The fact that no one has ever died means that their soul has never left their body.

that simply means there is no precedent not that it can't be done. like I said,until 3 comes out and explains how all of this works with reports or journals, it's all speculation at this point, but in a way, we have seen this universe version of death, prime examples being ventus and kairi(in not going to discuss kairi because of so many retcons at this point) the circumstances as to why ventus' heart left the body are profoundly different than any we have experienced but his heart did leave the body, yet why isn't he a nobody? He is a keyblade wielder so the prime factor in becoming a nobody, a strong heart, is there, but why is he comatose? Possibly because his mind/soul isn't there? As far as we have seen ventus was only able to talk to sora when his body was comatose. They have been connected since sora'sbirth, but can only communicate complex ideas, not just feelings when ventus is comatose, meaning that when the soul/mind travels with the heart that it leaves the body comatose, but allows you to communicate heart to heart with more than just feelings and memories, but your actual will and thoughts. Another example that I think is viable is the whole connection between sora, roxas, namine,and xion. Sora, after hollow bastion and before KH2 was simply a heart given form, but as we have been told hearts are driven by instinct and cannot really think, so why was sora able to do so if not for the soul being split between him namine and roxas, if you can explain how 2 bodies originated from one without the soul being able to be split I will delete my account on this website and never formulate another theory again. With that being said, I think the soul traveling with heart is the thing that allows roxas, and ventus, and somewhat xion the ability to communicate with sora and actually talk within the heart, seeing as roxas and xion no longer have bodies it only makes sense that perhaps the soul went with the heart back to sora, especially since ansem most likely refers to the death of the body,mane not the soul itself. And honestly, if people want to insult this theory yet jump on the reincarnation bandwagon... Then I don't know what to say.

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

that simply means there is no precedent not that it can't be done. like I said,until 3 comes out and explains how all of this works with reports or journals, it's all speculation at this point, but in a way, we have seen this universe version of death, prime examples being ventus and kairi(in not going to discuss kairi because of so many retcons at this point) the circumstances as to why ventus' heart left the body are profoundly different than any we have experienced but his heart did leave the body, yet why isn't he a nobody? He is a keyblade wielder so the prime factor in becoming a nobody, a strong heart, is there, but why is he comatose? Possibly because his mind/soul isn't there? As far as we have seen ventus was only able to talk to sora when his body was comatose. They have been connected since sora'sbirth, but can only communicate complex ideas, not just feelings when ventus is comatose, meaning that when the soul/mind travels with the heart that it leaves the body comatose, but allows you to communicate heart to heart with more than just feelings and memories, but your actual will and thoughts. Another example that I think is viable is the whole connection between sora, roxas, namine,and xion. Sora, after hollow bastion and before KH2 was simply a heart given form, but as we have been told hearts are driven by instinct and cannot really think, so why was sora able to do so if not for the soul being split between him namine and roxas, if you can explain how 2 bodies originated from one without the soul being able to be split I will delete my account on this website and never formulate another theory again. With that being said, I think the soul traveling with heart is the thing that allows roxas, and ventus, and somewhat xion the ability to communicate with sora and actually talk within the heart, seeing as roxas and xion no longer have bodies it only makes sense that perhaps the soul went with the heart back to sora, especially since ansem most likely refers to the death of the body,mane not the soul itself. And honestly, if people want to insult this theory yet jump on the reincarnation bandwagon... Then I don't know what to say.

He's comatose for the same reason Kairi was, no darkness. When he destroyed Vanitas, he destroyed his own darkness and with no darkness, the body doesn't disappear when the heart leaves.

In regards to Sora, it is said Heartless, not actual hearts are driven by instinct, that my be splitting hairs but let me explain. darkness is born from emotions often viewed as negative, hate, anger, fear. "What else is darkness but hate and rage?" " Fear leads to obsession with power, and obsession beckons the darkness" These are base emotions that can easily run wild if not kept in check and heartless are hearts that have been overrun by these dark emotions, thereby loosing reason and intelligence in the process. It makes sense then that Light would be derived from positive emotions, love, friendship, compassion. It seems to me that as long as Light is present, a heart on it's own would rely less on instinct than a heartless and be more reasonable and logical.But as for Roxas and Namine, that does make sense it also means the body can be split. But still death, true death, must be a real thing in Kingdom Hearts, otherwise the existence of the Underworld makes no sense. It seems like when a person dies, regardless of what world they're from, their soul goes to the underworld. 

As for the Reincarnation theory, the only problem I see is Kairi. The soul, as stated, is merely the bodies power source, where the heart is responsible for emotions, memories and even goes so far as to dictate a person's physical appearance. We also know hearts are eternal because the Xehanort Reports state that by continuously transferring the heart to another vessel, a person effectively becomes immortal. So unless the PoH actually did exist prior the to Keyblade war, but where just normal people that the fragments of light somehow found their way into, Kairi can not be Ava's reincarnation.

Now I'm wondering about Back Cover. We know the traitor will be revealed, will the real names of the other Foretellrrs also be revealed? Will their faces? Now I'm just more excited for 2.8

Edited January 4, 2016 by Isamu_Kuno

[outbackjim21 83]

He's comatose for the same reason Kairi was, no darkness. When he destroyed Vanitas, he destroyed his own darkness and with no darkness, the body doesn't disappear when the heart leaves. But as for Roxas and Namine, that does make sense it also means the body can be split. But still death, true death, must be a real thing in Kingdom Hearts, otherwise the existence of the Underworld makes no sense. It seems like when a person dies, regardless of what world they're from, their soul goes to the underworld. As for the Reincarnation theory, the only problem I see is Kairi. The soul, as stated, is merely the bodies power source, where the heart is responsible for emotions, memories and even goes so far as to dictate a person's physical appearance. We also know hearts are eternal because the Xehanort Reports state that by continuously transferring the heart to another vessel, a person effectively becomes immortal. So unless the PoH actually did exist prior the to Keyblade war, but where just normal people that the fragments of light somehow found their way into, Kairi can not be Ava's reincarnation.Now I'm wondering about Back Cover. We know the traitor will be revealed, will the real names of the other Foretellrrs also be revealed? Will their faces? Now I'm just more excited for 2.8

I'm not entirely sure on vanitas' "death" though the fusion was incomplete (maybe, the only reason we were told it was incomplete was because the x-blade was incomplete, but as 3D has shown us, the x-blade could never truly be completed in that scenario to begin with so the one "fact" that lead us to believe that is gone) vanitas is obivously alive and I wouldn't doubt that maybe the fusion was a success at least in the sense that ven's heart was restored yet still needed to mend,but I'll concede that point for now, but your point on how the bodies are split, if that's true then namine should be "born" dead seeing as if the soul can not split as well then there is no point in the body being able to. And as for underworld, each world has different rules, much like how it has different flows of time, I mean we could try explain how pirates of the Caribbean work seeing as the pirates are the dead come alive pretty much in that they can't die or even be touched by the keyblade in no cursed form. Same an he said for underworld just different rules that doesn't speak for the entiretyofthe KH universe.As for chi, I had to stop following that mess after two games were released neither of them even being announced for western release date and the fact that bothgames are separate yet equal, seeing as they take place in "separate dimensions" you have to play both now which means more chance of fans paying money and the series being milked, I wouldn't mind it if they were little less obivous about it, though I am still excited for 2.8

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

I'm not entirely sure on vanitas' "death" though the fusion was incomplete (maybe, the only reason we were told it was incomplete was because the x-blade was incomplete, but as 3D has shown us, the x-blade could never truly be completed in that scenario to begin with so the one "fact" that lead us to believe that is gone) vanitas is obivously alive and I wouldn't doubt that maybe the fusion was a success at least in the sense that ven's heart was restored yet still needed to mend,but I'll concede that point for now, but your point on how the bodies are split, if that's true then namine should be "born" dead seeing as if the soul can not split as well then there is no point in the body being able to. And as for underworld, each world has different rules, much like how it has different flows of time, I mean we could try explain how pirates of the Caribbean work seeing as the pirates are the dead come alive pretty much in that they can't die or even be touched by the keyblade in no cursed form. Same an he said for underworld just different rules that doesn't speak for the entiretyofthe KH universe.As for chi, I had to stop following that mess after two games were released neither of them even being announced for western release date and the fact that bothgames are separate yet equal, seeing as they take place in "separate dimensions" you have to play both now which means more chance of fans paying money and the series being milked, I wouldn't mind it if they were little less obivous about it, though I am still excited for 2.8

Auron doesn't look to be from Olympus Colisseum thouhg, so it seems that the Underwordls is where all departed souls go.

 

I was saying that you have a point about Roxas and Namine hinting that the soul can be split. I just added that it says the same for the body too.

 

Umm...you realize both versions of x are free right? The only version we're paying anything for is Back Cover.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Isamu_Kuno

[outbackjim21 83]

Auron doesn't look to be from Olympus Colisseum thouhg, so it seems that the Underwordls is where all departed souls go. I was saying that you have a point about Roxas and Namine hinting that the soul can be split. I just added that it says the same for the body too. Umm...you realize both versions of x are free right? The only version we're paying anything for is Back Cover.

But FF characters have been shown to travel there, maybe "dieing" in that world subjects you to its rules and if we were to go by actual movie canon, when a person dies in Hercules they become a ghoulish soul swimming in a pit, that wasn't the case with Auron meaning that maybe because he doesn't originate from that world then he isn't effected 100% by its rules. And with X being F2P, do you realize that in order to keep those types of games going it essentially needs micro transactions, that was what I meant by it being milked, once a franchise goes micro is when the company says let's take the entire fanbase's wallets for a joyride which I'm sure many are spending money on both titles.

[Ultima Spark 753]

The "will" (probably better translated as thoughts) is not the soul, even the Japanese differentiates the two (思念 shinen for will, 魂 tamashii for soul/spirit). The Vanitas Remnant (ヴァニタスの思念) is a type of creature akin to the Lingering Will (留まりし思念), made more clear in its journal entry ("A physical manifestation of what remained of Vanitas's powerful thoughts and feelings.") and JP name.

[KingdomHearts3 2,591]

The will is the soul. That's it. "Lingering spirit", "sentiment", "mind", and "lingering remnant" are four different names of the same thing. The lingering sentiment, or will, is Terra's soul infused into his armor. It will return back to Terra once Master Xehanort is booted out of Terra's heart and body.

[luka 23]

The will is the soul. That's it. "Lingering spirit", "sentiment", "mind", and "lingering remnant" are four different names of the same thing. The lingering sentiment, or will, is Terra's soul infused into his armor. It will return back to Terra once Master Xehanort is booted out of Terra's heart and body.

Actually it is not his soul = the soul does not leave the body because it is it's life force basically. It's his thoughts manifested.Nomura:13: What is the true form of Lingering Spirit?After Terra lost his body, his thoughts gathered into his armor. At the end of Terra’s scenario, Master Xehanort had commandeered his
 body, so his thoughts took control of his armor. Afterward, the armor 
stayed in the Keyblade Graveyard, until KHIIFM where “Lingering
 Spirit” went up against Sora. Because he saw that it was not his chosen
 one, Riku, using a Keyblade, but Sora, he grew suspicious and thought he
 had something to do with Master Xehanort and attacked him. After fighting him, LS feels Ventus inside of Sora.

[outbackjim21 83]

Actually it is not his soul = the soul does not leave the body because it is it's life force basically. It's his thoughts manifested.Nomura:13: What is the true form of Lingering Spirit?After Terra lost his body, his thoughts gathered into his armor. At the end of Terra’s scenario, Master Xehanort had commandeered his
 body, so his thoughts took control of his armor. Afterward, the armor 
stayed in the Keyblade Graveyard, until KHIIFM where “Lingering
 Spirit” went up against Sora. Because he saw that it was not his chosen
 one, Riku, using a Keyblade, but Sora, he grew suspicious and thought he
 had something to do with Master Xehanort and attacked him. After fighting him, LS feels Ventus inside of Sora.

I already thoroughly explained how the soul and mind can be interchangeable, and have provided key proof into the ability of the soul also being able to be split up just like the heart, thoughts=will and if the soul is what keeps the body alive and moving then what's stopping someone from calling the soul the "will to live". There is nothing stopping the possibility of Terra's mind to be split and have some it go into LW. But honestly, everyone is using the definition of the heart soul and body from KH 1, a time when ingame characters (even more Nomura) had no idea how all of the elements worked together, apprentice xehanort knew nothing of nobodies only speciulated (or maybe pretended not to divulge the information, but that's unlikely since there have been no hints that he left those reports to be found by the protagonist) and ansem the wise was adamant that nobodies could not have hearts, both of these characters either knew nothing about how the components of a somebody worked interdependently/independently or were completely wrong. Edited January 5, 2016 by outbackjim21

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

The "will" (probably better translated as thoughts) is not the soul, even the Japanese differentiates the two (思念 shinen for will, 魂 tamashii for soul/spirit). The Vanitas Remnant (ヴァニタスの思念) is a type of creature akin to the Lingering Will (留まりし思念), made more clear in its journal entry ("A physical manifestation of what remained of Vanitas's powerful thoughts and feelings.") and JP name.

Yep!

 

 

I already thoroughly explained how the soul and mind can be interchangeable, and have provided key proof into the ability of the soul also being able to be split up just like the heart, thoughts=will and if the soul is what keeps the body alive and moving then what's stopping someone from calling the soul the "will to live". There is nothing stopping the possibility of Terra's mind to be split and have some it go into LW. But honestly, everyone is using the definition of the heart soul and body from KH 1, a time when ingame characters (even more Nomura) had no idea how all of the elements worked together, apprentice xehanort knew nothing of nobodies only speciulated (or maybe pretended not to divulge the information, but that's unlikely since there have been no hints that he left those reports to be found by the protagonist) and ansem the wise was adamant that nobodies could not have hearts, both of these characters either knew nothing about how the components of a somebody worked interdependently/independently or were completely wrong.

 

 

Actually you have provided no proof whatsoever they are interchangeable. Namine, Roxas, and Xion do not separately share a soul with Sora per se. Namine used Sora's body and soul's darkness to form her already proclaimed anomaly. But it was from her heart leaving using his bodies darkness since Kairi's heart was pure and cannot make a nobody without darkness. She did not actually have a body herself once formed. No where does it say she shares his body and soul once born to exist. She is an anomoly as stated by AtW. Roxas used Sora's actual body and therefore his soul. Sora could still exist as a walking heart until reunited with Roxas( his physical body and soul) because nobodies are directly tied to their hearts at all times and Sora's walking heart existence was caused by Kairi purifying him. If she had not he would've remained a heartless shadow and the same rules would apply. Sora even mentions he felt his conscious self slip away until Kairi saved him by purifying him and giving him human form. Xion did not share anything from Sora body and soul wise but his memories of Kairi she was based off. She had a replica body. What makes them their own separate beings? Their own separate hearts they grew. Xehanort can control his vessels through his heart pieces he implanted as confirmed also by Nomura. When Terra and Xehanort had their conversation inside Terra in the end of BBS it was their HEARTS talking.The heart is the theme of the series and Nomura has never given any indication the soul has ever meant anything other than the life source of the body. Until he does I'll go with his words and explanations not some fans made up 'theory' when he has straight up given us a definition.

 

Also nobodies do not have hearts so they were not wrong. However, they can grow new ones if the conditions are right and proper nurturing takes place as explained by Xemnas in DDD. The body will attempt to replace it as stated by Xemnas as well. This does not mean however that all nobodies grew their hearts back- just the ones who had the viable conditions to do so.

 

Also Ultima Sparks Japanese interpretation backs this up. So no, I do not buy your 'theory.' It has no factual basis. I'll stick with Nomura's canon words and also facts already presented to us in game and in reports like what I mentioned above. We have already argued in circles before in other threads that your theory has no factual basis so quit trying to force it on others as anything other than theory you made up. Don't bother responding to me 

[KingdomHearts3 2,591]

I already thoroughly explained how the soul and mind can be interchangeable, and have provided key proof into the ability of the soul also being able to be split up just like the heart, thoughts=will and if the soul is what keeps the body alive and moving then what's stopping someone from calling the soul the "will to live". There is nothing stopping the possibility of Terra's mind to be split and have some it go into LW. But honestly, everyone is using the definition of the heart soul and body from KH 1, a time when ingame characters (even more Nomura) had no idea how all of the elements worked together, apprentice xehanort knew nothing of nobodies only speciulated (or maybe pretended not to divulge the information, but that's unlikely since there have been no hints that he left those reports to be found by the protagonist) and ansem the wise was adamant that nobodies could not have hearts, both of these characters either knew nothing about how the components of a somebody worked interdependently/independently or were completely wrong.

I am glad someone else answered for me because the explanation I got made no sense. "A spirit is not a soul". Then what is it?! 

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

I am glad someone else answered for me because the explanation I got made no sense. "A spirit is not a soul". Then what is it?! 

 

The "will" (probably better translated as thoughts) is not the soul, even the Japanese differentiates the two (思念 shinen for will, 魂 tamashii for soul/spirit). The Vanitas Remnant (ヴァニタスの思念) is a type of creature akin to the Lingering Will (留まりし思念), made more clear in its journal entry ("A physical manifestation of what remained of Vanitas's powerful thoughts and feelings.") and JP name.

 

This answers what the Japanese interpretation of it is in Ultimas post. A lot of themes in KH are japanese inspired themes not western.

 

Luka's post gave Nomura's direct definition:

 

 

Actually it is not his soul = the soul does not leave the body because it is it's life force basically. It's his thoughts manifested.Nomura:13: What is the true form of Lingering Spirit?After Terra lost his body, his thoughts gathered into his armor. At the end of Terra’s scenario, Master Xehanort had commandeered his
 body, so his thoughts took control of his armor. Afterward, the armor 
stayed in the Keyblade Graveyard, until KHIIFM where “Lingering
 Spirit” went up against Sora. Because he saw that it was not his chosen
 one, Riku, using a Keyblade, but Sora, he grew suspicious and thought he
 had something to do with Master Xehanort and attacked him. After fighting him, LS feels Ventus inside of Sora.