Turn-based\Active-Time Battle systems in RPGs ARE NOT BAD

[Dio Brando 5,810]

 

Seriously I'm sick and tired of hearing the both video game companies and critics alike dissing it,thinking it's shitty and it no longer sells for some reason and the straw that broke the camel's back for me was all the arguments regarding the battle system for the FFVII remake

 

 

People say it doesn't sell eh?Well how about the fact that Pokemon since Gen 1's release in the mid-90s has sold over 250 million copies and is the best selling RPG of all time and the second best selling franchise right behind the Mario franchise

 

Bravely Default sold very well on the 3DS despite Square Enix's old claims that the turn-based system is dated and no longer sell

 

 

People say it's shitty eh?Then how about the fact that games like Persona 4(especially P4 Golden),Shin Megami Tensei 4,Bravely Default and most mainline Pokemon games are critically acclaimed and heavily praised by many?There is a reason why people keep going back to the classic Final Fantasy games from 1 to 10 again and again after all those years.

 

The system itself is fine,the genre is fine,it's just the industry that randomly decided that Turn-basedActive-Time combat is shitty and is not flashy and "cool" enough to be the eye-candy that they want the general populace to demand 

[Hero of Winds 2,576]

Regardless of what many believe, it is a dying genre of combat. It still sticks around in games like Pokemon, but very few use the system. Hyperdimension Neptunia isn't positively the greatest game out there, but it uses a turn based system, but when it's your turn, you have a limit on how much you attack for your turn, but it's a real-time combat system at point. I'm think that's how VII is gonna work out with the remake, considering Kitase said it wasn't gonna be purely real-time.

[Veemon 1,540]

Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII had pretty good ATB-style combat. You would wait for a few seconds, then you could string together a huge combo of attacks, or hold your guard for longer depending on how much ATB gauge you had. And that's not nothin'!

 

 

Rock on!

[AngelTheWeirdStranger 504]

For me, when I play on a big screen of a "powerful" console, I prefer a more "free" and action style video game. Because in a game console that can sustain fast paced gameplay and high definition, I expect to play games that are not slow and turn-based.

In my portable small game console, however, where I do not have the need to get fully engrossed and my expectations on gameplay are lower, I do not mind games which contain turn-based and leisurely gameplay.

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

Um, I don't really recall anyone saying that it's "bad" or "shitty" as you put it. The worst I hear is just that it's an "old-fashioned" way of playing, which I can kind of see why, it was a huge staple for Japanese originated games back in the 80's and 90's. It was actually successful enough to help guide the industry out of the game crash, and despite how complex, daunting, and intimidating it may seem, it is actually pretty fun and intuitive once you get the hang of it. It's just a new way to play, and that's what most games should be, offering new interesting ways to play something that still work. I think most people who are looking for quicker and faster feedback in their actions probably look at turn-based styles and are afraid that they might have to do things like keep a character fact sheet, roll 50-sided dice, and look back and forth between the screen and a game manual after each battle. Point being, they might see it as being an unnecessarily complicated method of playing a video game, something that's supposed to be a simple way to spend your free time. That said, what gameplay style you prefer, like, or even see value in depends on your personality entirely. It's been a while since I played FF VII (I'm not even all the way done with it yet) so I'm afraid I'm going to be very rusty with my skills by the time I pick it up again, but I do remember that while I was playing it I had a fun time, with only a few minor annoyances with the play style. It's still something that holds up pretty well, if for no other reason than having that fun nostalgic retro experience, and I am all for the retro (Max Goof shades, why do you allude me...? T3T"").

 

Now with that in mind, I come again to my point that I think the actual general consensus here is that the game industry and people don't think turn-based/active time (never understood the "active time" phrase, isn't there a lot of inactive time between character and enemy movements...?) is necessarily "bad" or anything, they just think that it's "old" or "outdated". That mostly comes from the fact that since they were such a staple back in the 80's and 90's they tend to be associated with that era, they become a product of those times. Now that technology has moved on to being able to do things bigger, better, and more flashy, people expect to see those capabilities shown off in any way they can be and game companies intend to do that in order to win more people over.There's more of an energy going into faster and higher-paced battles and gameplay that get your blood pumping, and as fun as turn-based is, you got to admit that it requires A LOT of patience (especially when those damn enemies cast Slow on you and you don't have a freaking Haste spell on you yet, mguusfguhfdhsujfdsjafsdj.....), something that we have less of nowadays now that technology has advanced as far as it has. And it certainly helps when you see later games like Kingdom Hearts try to break the mold a little bit while still evolving the formula it got it's roots from, showing that you can still use the same concept but adapt it to fit the tastes and style of the times. You can still have the elements of an RPG while still being able to have full complete dynamic movement of your character, which is what I think a lot of people were really looking for. The game industry is just kind of taking note of what the general public is leaning towards in terms of gaming and they also realize that in today's age that faster movement is what sells more, especially if you're trying to wow people.

 

Turn-based systems aren't bad, and they aren't "dying" either, they're simply evolving into a newer form. We've seen it start with Kingdom Hearts, we saw it continue in other ways with FF XIII and games that came after it, and we're seeing it now with games like FF XV and FF VII Remake. A form that combines both dynamic and complete control and action of the character with the multilayered battle options of traditional turn-based RPGs, taking the best of both styles and making something that truly fits in with the time they are in now, the time of innovation. Again, I don't think I've been as exposed to the negativity towards this style as you have, but I can say for a fact that there's more reason as to why traditional RPG franchises and companies are moving away from such traditions than simply because of a lack of interest.

[A Heartless Nobody 120]

Here we go again.

[Headphone Jack 1,147]

yea i never got the hate for turn based combat. i've played games like FFIX and the Persona series and never had a problem with the gameplay. I actually had lots of fun with the combat. There was something about the turn based gameplay in FFIX and P3/P4 that felt so satisfying to execute. I wanna say it was the battle music. Selecting attacks and performing them to the music gave things an extra bit of fun. 

 

it's fine if developers want to use different combat styles but i wish they wouldn't' bash turn based gameplay. it's still a good form of combat, when done correctly. reminds me of a group of businessmen trying to relate to kids today. "Turn based is too slow man! Kids today like things fast and in your face! Real time action packed explosive combat!"

[Trece the Xam ( ▀ ͜͞ʖ▀) 3,859]

Turned based and active time are terrible, yeah, that's why Final Fantasy and Pokémon never got to sell much, exactly, yeah. And also Fire Emblem, yeah, and Bravely Default, those are all terrible games that haven't sold at all, yeah, they just did multiple parts to make sure they were terrible, and Golden Sun was terrible too, yeah, basically all of the games that had turn based system were terrible, especially those that had no action time bar, like Final Fantasy X (how did it get to 10 is still mysterious...).

 

 

 

All of above was sarcastic, now this is the serious part: 

I agree with you completely, I love turned based games, Golden Sun, Final Fantasy, Pokémon, etc., and I think it's a real shame that now no one sees how good that system is due to how strategic it is, and how you have to think before taking action. It's ceirtanly underrated nowadays.

 

[Isaix 924]

Yeah I don't get it either,this mentallity that turn-based RPGs are archaic and action-RPGs is the futur of RPGs makes no sense,its like saying 2D Mario games shouldn't exist on consoles anymore because 3D Mario is the evolution of Mario and thus 2D Mario is boring and archaic.Both can exist at the same time because they are completly different types of games and like the guy said Bravely Default was a succes and Pokemon is like the best selling RPG of all-time so surely people still like turn-based RPGs.They are fun to play for different reasons.

 

I prefer Action-RPG over Turn-base but that doesn't mean they should go away from consoles

[Exiblade7 1,917]

Who ever said that turn based battle systems were bad? I just prefer action rpgs over turn based rpgs. I really just find action rpgs so much better then turn based rpgs. 

[Shulk 8,623]

I think the issue is that a lot of gamers these days just aren't patient enough, and need something flashy and fast. Personally, I never got the complaints about turn-based. It's a little slower, yes, but it makes you think about your next move a lot more than any Action RPG does. ARPGs are fine too, but most of them are missing that strategy element that I find to be so fun. I'm getting to a point where I'm kind of burned out on Action RPGs because a lot of them feel similar and don't make me plan out my attacks as much as turn-based RPGs do. Turn-based games feel like they have a lot more depth to them, and that's why I love them. Balancing my team, choosing the right skills and spells, and racing against the clock in an ATB-style game is a lot of fun, and I've missed having so many options in that genre. Thankfully, Dragon Quest is still carrying on that legacy with XI, so I'm really excited for that.

[Sorarocks93 678]

Devs saying that it's a dying breed because they themselves are killing it. 

 

E.g. Konami stopped making 2D Castlevania games because "people don't like it".  Meanwhile Bloodstained was one of the most succesful Kickstarted games in the history of Kickstarter. 

 

The thing is, we should have both. Right now we are overflowing with Action RPGs instead of Turned Based.

 

I hope FFXVI will be turn based/ATB but I know it's false hope, cuz square.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Sorarocks93

[The 13th Kenpachi 4,279]

There a lot of people who love turned based games, Boogie from Youtube stated in his reaction to the FF7 Remake trailer, that he loves turned based games. I LOVE FF10, it's my 2nd favourite game behind the KH games. I adore the battle system and grinding in that game was a lot of fun. If it's turned based, it should be a fast type of turned based game, i don't mind waiting my turn as long as I'm not waiting forever and ever. 

 

FF7 REMAKE has become real time because it is more appealing. Mainly due to the impact of the KH series, a lot of KH fans are put off by the turned based gameplay of final fantasy, but with the KH series Square have realised that real time battle systems are more appealing and having completely new gameplay that is very similar to one of SE's best selling and received IP's-Kingdom Hearts, it will attract more KH fans and attract more people. Look at FFXV, a lot of KH fans have been clamoring for that game because it has a battle system similar to one of their favourite games.

 

It's more of a business decision, the new FF7 is a REMAKE. Nomura has said this previously "if you want the original FF7 on PS4 then you should play the port" (Not as bluntly of course). This is a remake, not FF7 with XV graphics. This game is going to sell a lot no matter what, Square are trying to milk as much money as they can out of FF7 Remake and if I was in their position I'd do the same. 

 

[DragonMaster 1,166]

I really like turn based battle systems like Persona, Pokemon, and Bravely Default. I've always found them to be fun. Sure they can get boring if I play a bunch of long turn-based games back to back, but I just mix it up with something different.

 

I must admit, though, I've never found any ATB battle system to be fun. I've tried Xenoblade, FF12, & FF13, and got bored. Pretty much anything with an auto-attack mechanic just turns me off. Either give me pure turn based or pure action, this weird in between combat isn't for me...

 

That's not to say that I think ATB is objectively terrible, it just isn't for me.

[neil98 313]

Action oriented titles are more appealing than turn based to the general audience nowadays, thus resulting in a larger amount of sales for a game. Don't hate me though, i really much like turn based games, but i prefer action ones.

[MythrilMagician 6,963]

I don't have anything against turn based, but if there is constant random encounters, then that's when it gets annoying.

Edited December 14, 2015 by MythrilMagician

[The Transcendent Key 12,109]

As an RPG gamer myself, I personally think that the turn based system of old has always been a fun gameplay style for me!  A lot of people I know don't like it because they're like: "But why do you have to wait a turn to attack?" and other such questions.  I can understand that turn based gameplay isn't for everyone, but for those who do have the affection for it, good for them!  I don't think turn based combat sucks, because with this system, you have to carefully think what actions you'll take in order to secure victory!  Be too hasty, and my party dies.  Think a bit more, and I can eventually survive a few more turns!  It adds a sense of thrill, ya know? Games like FFIV, The Lord Of The Rings: The Third Age, Pokemon, etc. are great examples of how turn based combat excels!  But yeah, most people today just want fast and flashy! 

 

Don't get me wrong, though, I also love fast paced combat!  Kingdom Hearts is one of those RPG series that greatly excels at this type of combat, and I find it to be fun and engaging!  But anyways, what I'm getting at here is that there can be room for both styles of play, ya know?  Turn based combat doesn't have to go away, because many people still love that style, such as myself!

 

But yeah, that's just my two cents on all this.

[Minato arisato 253]

add&autoplay=1

 

While i don't agree with everything that is said in this video, i do think turn based games haven't lost their touch it's something we sort of mindset that we made about it.

[Lulcielid 159]

I dont agree with Jim at all.

I think jrpgs has way too many games with turn based gameplay that, it's becoming tiresome for me.

[Minato arisato 253]

I dont agree with Jim at all.I think jrpgs has way too many games with turn based gameplay that, it's becoming tiresome for me.

It's fine if it's not your cup of tea but it's a genre in itself, people can't decide that its dead

[Lulcielid 159]

It's fine if it's not your cup of tea but it's a genre in itself, people can't decide that its dead

But they cant decide that turn base should be only gameplay jrpgs (or FF for example) can & should have.

[Headphone Jack 1,147]

i think Smash Mega Koopa already made a thread with the same video, if im not mistaken

[Minato arisato 253]

But they cant decide that turn base should be only gameplay jrpgs (or FF for example) can & should have.

Jim does state that console rpgs and even square's own return to rig gameplay is still successful, so why try to change things drastically to action? so far it doesn't seem slightly strategic

i think Smash Mega Koopa already made a thread with the same video, if im not mistaken

 

oh shit, i guess he beat me to it ):

To those who point out Smash Mega Koopa did this topic, i just got informed but i'll let this topic stay up

[Lulcielid 159]

Jim does state that console rpgs and even square's own return to rig gameplay is still successful, so why try to change things drastically to action? so far it doesn't seem slightly strategic oh shit, i guess he beat me to it ):To those who point out Smash Mega Koopa did this topic, i just got informed but i'll let this topic stay up

Maybe because the developers started to get boring of using the same gameplay over and over again ? As a creator and artist you eventually get bore of repeating the same.

[Minato arisato 253]

Maybe because the developers started to get boring of using the same gameplay over and over again ? As a creator and artist you eventually get bore of repeating the same.

That can be also redirected to shooters and other genres, each project and title mix things up or add variety to the spectrum of Media