The deal with Cloud and Sephiroth

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

I have to admit, as much as I love this side story in the series, it confuses me to no end trying to piece together how it works in the KH universe. Some things I can follow like Sephiroth being a being that represents the Darkness in Cloud's heart, possibly in a similar vein to Vanitas, but then there are a few things that feel like grey areas to me. Like with Tiffa, I used to just think that she was just another character, and I was fine with that. But now I'm suddenly seeing this theory tossed around that she's not really "there" at all, that's she's a manifestation of the Light in Cloud's heart, opposite to Sephiroth. Ok, the Sephiroth thing I could buy, but..WHAT!?

 

What makes it more confusing is that everyone claims that what supports this theory is that aside from Sora, Donald, Goofy, Sephiroth, and Cloud, no one else acknowledges her. Um, EXCUSE ME? I'm pretty sure Leon noticed her barging in and lifting a painting, etc. And furthermore, would Cloud really need a Light doppleganger anyway? The impression I was getting was that it was supposed to be him fighting his Darkness with Light, they're the only ones who are ever fighting half the time so the idea that they are polar opposites yet two halves of the same whole made sense from a storytelling standpoint. Why would anyone try to complicate that by throwing in a separate "Light half" and leave Cloud a questionable blank sleight? I mean, the idea that he has to make a choice is interesting, I guess, but with something that only get's probably a total 30 minutes of coverage out of a 10,000+ hour total series (all games' stories combined), making something so complex and keeping it hidden in the shadows doesn't really do you any favors. Unless they just plan on concluding and explaining everything in KH3, which with FF VII's recent revival hype as of late is more than likely to happen. Then in that case I would just shut up and enjoy the fireworks.

 

But really the main problem I have with the whole thing is this:

 

When you see Cloud again for the first time in KH2, Donald remarks that Cloud looks different. His clothes? Hair? Well, yeah I guess he has gone through the most significant change. But then Cloud says that "If I do, it's his (Sephiroth's) fault." Now what the hell is that supposed to mean? I've heard talk that it was actually his face that Donald was referring to, that now his face model is similar looking to that of Sephiroths', similar to how Roxas's new model in KH2 HD is made to match Sora's face a bit better as his Nobody. But is there any proof of this? I mean, it would make sense I guess, seeing as how they were supposedly the same being at one point, and if Ven's actions could affect Vanitas' appearance, then I guess it's fair to say the reversal could be true, especially if the influence of Darkness over Cloud's heart is a strong one. It would also kind of work as a callback to the plot point of him being a "clone" of Sephiroth in FF VII, only the nature here is kind of reversed, with Sephiroth being a byproduct of Cloud (though they kind of touched upon that in Advent Children, with him claiming to be alive because Cloud couldn't let go). But while I can see it with Roxas in KH2 HD, it's not as obvious or apparent to me with Cloud, if it is true.

 

Can anyone confirm this for me, or possibly shed some insight? Because if it turns out that it isn't the case and Donald was literally talking about Cloud's new style, I'm seriously going to be scratching my head, because changing your look just because you hate someone is kind of a weird and lame excuse to make such a dramatic difference. I mean, if it represents how he feels like in Advent Children that's fine, but I don't see how "my new hair and clothes are all Sephiroth's fault" is a legitimate excuse. So, anyone care to enlighten me?

[Ajexmi 446]

The thing with theories is that theories are all they are without confirmation from Nomura. Tifa was defintiely in Radiant Garden as far as I'm concerned - in Advent Children she was always wondering where he was and supported him in the build up to his confrontation with Sephiroth. 

 

In terms of his likeness changing (as well as his gear), I'd say that's homage to the the connection they share, or the Mako stigma or whatever. Also, how long can he walk around in Soldier gear after leaving Shinra? Come on! haha - It becomes more of a question of when in the timeline in VII series these characters have walked out of. What makes less sense is Aeris being alive!!!!!

 

In honesty, I think they subbed out Mako for darkness to make it fit into the concepts for KH titles. Personally, I think it's not worth over complicating these values, but good luck on your quest for closure on this

[rikunobodyxiii 700]

Enlighten? No. Add another wrinkle to this conundrum? Yes.

Zack. We meet up with Zack on Olympus in BBS, and he appears to be a native. In the ending credits for that game, we see him disappear, with only a black feather left. While saying the feather was Sephiroth's is an assumption at this point, I do believe it is a safe assumption. So, how does he fit in the Cloud and Sephiroth side story? Is Zack the Somebody, Cloud the Nobody, and Sephiroth the Heartless?

[Philip Ellwell 5,487]

I always took it to be a direct reference from FF7, with Seph being the Darkness in Cloud, and Tiffa the Light.

Then Zack came along in BBS and f-d my idea up

To be honest, I think it's just FF callbacks for the fans, and there's no real direct purpose behind it. FF isn't on the same wavelength as KH, because Aerith is dead in FF, and alive and well in KH. Same for Zack (you can assume), and a few others. 

And Seph is toned down a lot from FF. (On a slightly off topic point, so is Seifer)

As for Donald, it was more than likely his clothing he was talking about, and a slight in-joke on the game's part due to Cloud's facial remodel. 

Edited December 11, 2015 by Jack Vladimir Frost

[Dave 5,715]

The line about his new duds being Sephiroth's fault isn't really literal so much as it is the JRPG trope of trying to make sure that everyone knows your hero is angsty by making all of his dialogue needlessly directed towards that angst. 

 

As for Tifa being a figment of Cloud's imagination, I'm not really seeing it outside of people wanting to take circumstantial evidence (her only appearing in Cloud and Sora's scenes) and making it into something else entirely.

[Headphone Jack 1,147]

i never really gave much thought to this little subplot in the series. i wrote it off as mindless fan service. 

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

I thought that line about Cloud looking different was because the stress of chasing and fighting Sephiroth was showing in his face.As for Tifa being Cloud's light half, I doubt it. I think they need to tie Zack's story from BbS to Cloud's story for it to fully make sense. Something similar to his actual story, only with Aerith being alive.

Enlighten? No. Add another wrinkle to this conundrum? Yes.Zack. We meet up with Zack on Olympus in BBS, and he appears to be a native. In the ending credits for that game, we see him disappear, with only a black feather left. While saying the feather was Sephiroth's is an assumption at this point, I do believe it is a safe assumption. So, how does he fit in the Cloud and Sephiroth side story? Is Zack the Somebody, Cloud the Nobody, and Sephiroth the Heartless?

Possibly, but I see some problems with this. First, I believe Nomura said Radiant Garden is Cloud's home world. Nobodies don have home worlds, though I suppose that could just be the world he rematerialized in. But second, Nobodies look almost exactly like their somebodies except in the case of interference from another heart or body. Cloud and Zack don't look like twins. Edited December 11, 2015 by Isamu_Kuno

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

The thing with theories is that theories are all they are without confirmation from Nomura. Tifa was defintiely in Radiant Garden as far as I'm concerned - in Advent Children she was always wondering where he was and supported him in the build up to his confrontation with Sephiroth. 

 

In terms of his likeness changing (as well as his gear), I'd say that's homage to the the connection they share, or the Mako stigma or whatever. Also, how long can he walk around in Soldier gear after leaving Shinra? Come on! haha - It becomes more of a question of when in the timeline in VII series these characters have walked out of. What makes less sense is Aeris being alive!!!!!

 

In honesty, I think they subbed out Mako for darkness to make it fit into the concepts for KH titles. Personally, I think it's not worth over complicating these values, but good luck on your quest for closure on this

Except they don't come from the FF VII we know of, they're "new" versions of these characters that exist in the KH universe. They all came from Radiant Garden (I'm even willing to bet that Zack originally came from RG and just traveled to Olympus Coliseum, the art style of his model just being a stylistic choice. Nomura never said he never came from RG, so there's no reason to suspect that he was born on OC until directly stated) and their pasts are mostly different. Squall lived with Aerith, Yuffie, Cid, and presumably Cloud, and that clearly isn't the case in either VII or VIII. Not to mention that the only other VIII characters exist in completely separate worlds, SEED and SOLDIER do not exist, therefore Mako doesn't exist, and Shinra doesn't exist either. Aerith never died because that story never happened. Since they were all likely kids or very young teens or tweens by that point, whatever issue involving Sephiroth didn't occur until right before or directly after the Heartless incident (Maleficent invading the world with Heartless). Zack is another point to consider as well, as the fact that presumably Sephiroth did...something to him that causes us not to see Zack anymore implies that there is at least some kind of connection between them and Cloud. Also, Nomura explains that when Zack says that Terra looks like what he pictured a hero to be, his frame of reference was Sephiroth, so he at least knows of him. But since we are led to believe that Sephiroth IS Cloud, we have even less idea as to how everything adds up.

 

The point here though is that the events of VII, Advent Children, and Crisis Core have nothing to do with KH, other than being a frame of reference to compare against the events in the KH universe involving these characters. Maybe events SIMILAR to those games happened within the KH universe, but one thing is clear, NONE of the VII characters seen here come from Gaia, they come from either Radiant Garden or literally anywhere else in the KH universe. They are kind of homages for the most part, but they are not just something that can be written off as fan service without any thought put into it. Considering how VII is Nomura's first baby, I'm pretty certain that he does have a definitive end to that side story in mind, otherwise there would be no other reason to include it in these games other than "hey, this would be kind of cool".

 

I thought that line about Cloud looking different was because the stress of chasing and fighting Sephiroth was showing in his face.As for Tifa being Cloud's light half, I doubt it. I think they need to tie Zack's story from BbS to Cloud's story for it to fully make sense. Something similar to his actual story, only with Aerith being alive.Possibly, but I see some problems with this. First, I believe Nomura said Radiant Garden is Cloud's home world. Nobodies don have home worlds, though I suppose that could just be the world he rematerialized in. But second, Nobodies look almost exactly like their somebodies except in the case of interference from another heart or body. Cloud and Zack don't look like twins.

 

Maybe that could be a way of interpreting it, but I still want some kind of visual comparison between Cloud's faces and Sephiroth's just so I can put that theory to rest.

 

And yeah, I really doubt it's something as straightforward as Heartless and Nobody mechanics. I'm willing to buy the whole "fractured heart/person" theory, where Sephiroth is the dark half of Cloud similar to Vanitas. But the fact that Zack would have considered him a hero at some point would suggest that he had to exist as his own person though...I don't know, maybe there was a real Sephiroth, he was a hero, stuff happened to make Sephiroth evil, KH version of Crisis happened, Sephiroth died, it messed up Cloud, his dark half became real and took on the persona of Sephiroth when it's really just Cloud's darkness, did something to Zack, Radiant Garden got destroyed, Cloud got separated or went a way to find Sephiroth, the whole chase and Olympus Coliseum story happened, he came back to Radiant Garden, stuck around, helped out, fought Heartless, fought Sephiroth, and they disappeared...somewhere, and then hopefully we get a close on that story in KH3...or at some point.

 

About as far-fetched as any of the other theories I came across, but at least it makes sense to me.

[rikunobodyxiii 700]

I thought that line about Cloud looking different was because the stress of chasing and fighting Sephiroth was showing in his face.As for Tifa being Cloud's light half, I doubt it. I think they need to tie Zack's story from BbS to Cloud's story for it to fully make sense. Something similar to his actual story, only with Aerith being alive.Possibly, but I see some problems with this. First, I believe Nomura said Radiant Garden is Cloud's home world. Nobodies don have home worlds, though I suppose that could just be the world he rematerialized in. But second, Nobodies look almost exactly like their somebodies except in the case of interference from another heart or body. Cloud and Zack don't look like twins.

agreed. While it would be interesting to have them in that state, it doesn't work with how Somebodies and Nobodies are suppose to be without other weird circumstances. I mainly mentioned that possibility as a way to get people thinking on how Zack factors in.

[outbackjim21 83]

Tifa Does not in any way shape or form represent cloud's light. Tifa's light simply burns too brightly for cloud, watch the fight where tifa steps in and tries to fight sephiroth, cloud is shielding his eyes because of tifa's light. As much as KH tries not do draw upon the origins from the FF games its safe to assume that sephiroth still represents cloud's failures and inadequacy or his "darkness" whether this is in relation to zach due to all three characters first appearing in the colisuem who knows, but cloud's struggle with sephiroth will always be about overcoming his past failures in both ff7 and KH