Hoping worlds aren't so linear

[Ghost 1,857]

and more populated. Be nice to see an assload of NPCs in the worlds because one of the biggest things that bothered me were empty worlds. so  lonely! also if the worlds werent so linear in this game, thatd be nice. would be more work 

[Dave 5,715]

I definitely agree. I really don't want another round of having about six or so stages to a world than involve beating up the enemies in one room, then moving on to the next mob.

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

...define "linear", as we are talking about rooms that you can explore in various ways, with usually two entrances/exits that, depending on their area, will either be really huge, really long, really short, or really narrow, or might be a mish-mash of all sorts of things. I mean, having more NPCs is one thing, I can understand that, I'd personally like more signs of life myself, maybe even have some people run and hide when Heartless show up in populated areas. But "linear"? When people say "I really hope this game isn't linear" they tend to be referring to the plot, and KH has been in that kind of style for quite some time now, so I doubt that will ever change. When they speak about levels, like say a Sonic the Hedgehog level, they mean that they want there to be multiple paths or routes towards the same destination or goal, not being forced to be on one path all the time, but having different ways of getting there. So how exactly would a KH stage be any different? The series has been getting progressively more and more expansive with each new entry, the stages have been getting huger and huger to compensate for all the mobility you acquire. KH3 you're probably supposed to be the most mobile and agile you've ever been, even more than DDD. So how, after seeing all this footage, would the game ever have stages or worlds that are "linear"? I'm just not getting it.

[Forever 3,550]

I thought that the reason NPCs aren't put into Worlds is because the "emptiness" is supposed to reflect how stealthy the Keyblade Wielders are. ( Considering they are supposed to be a group of people not many know about. )

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

I thought that the reason NPCs aren't put into Worlds is because the "emptiness" is supposed to reflect how stealthy the Keyblade Wielders are. ( Considering they are supposed to be a group of people not many know about. )

And yet the first few games centered around a trio of colorfully clothed goofballs carrying a giant Key fighting shadowy monsters by shouting out loud battle cries while making huge explosions that shake whole areas.

 

Then again, no one was caught. X)

[Ghost 1,857]

...define "linear", as we are talking about rooms that you can explore in various ways, with usually two entrances/exits that, depending on their area, will either be really huge, really long, really short, or really narrow, or might be a mish-mash of all sorts of things. I mean, having more NPCs is one thing, I can understand that, I'd personally like more signs of life myself, maybe even have some people run and hide when Heartless show up in populated areas. But "linear"? When people say "I really hope this game isn't linear" they tend to be referring to the plot, and KH has been in that kind of style for quite some time now, so I doubt that will ever change. When they speak about levels, like say a Sonic the Hedgehog level, they mean that they want there to be multiple paths or routes towards the same destination or goal, not being forced to be on one path all the time, but having different ways of getting there. So how exactly would a KH stage be any different? The series has been getting progressively more and more expansive with each new entry, the stages have been getting huger and huger to compensate for all the mobility you acquire. KH3 you're probably supposed to be the most mobile and agile you've ever been, even more than DDD. So how, after seeing all this footage, would the game ever have stages or worlds that are "linear"? I'm just not getting it.

 

 

by "linear" i meant the map/world setup

 

 theres not much to explore compared to most games tbh. the map's basically just one large straight line as if theres arrows pointing and telling you where to go. some no room for error, no clues to explore to figure out what to do next. like i know the games aimed at a younger audience but it literally feels like a straight line.

 

wasnt talking about the story (i dont think its linear) but my bad, i should have elaborated 

I thought that the reason NPCs aren't put into Worlds is because the "emptiness" is supposed to reflect how stealthy the Keyblade Wielders are. ( Considering they are supposed to be a group of people not many know about. )

 or *cough*laziness*cough*

 

there is NO reason for bustling places like agrabah, halloweentown, twilight town etc. to be DEAD empty. not a single soul roaming the streets is slightly more unbelievable than a talking mouse for president or smacking people with a key

 

but tats just my opinion 

[BlankShell 638]

Populated, sure, but the worlds never struck me as super linear, especially when you revisit and explore new parts and go back and forth between other ones. Only the final levels have ever been straight lines.

[Ghost 1,857]

Populated, sure, but the worlds never struck me as super linear, especially when you revisit and explore new parts and go back and forth between other ones. Only the final levels have ever been straight lines.

i mean i was saying compared to the kinds of games i play. kh is like the only jrpg (???) series i enjoy so its different for me, which is why it just feels like walking in a straaight line or having someone hold my hand as i play the game :x 

 

idk if kh3 doesnt have populated worlds ima be mega pissed 

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

by "linear" i meant the map/world setup

 

 theres not much to explore compared to most games tbh. the map's basically just one large straight line as if theres arrows pointing and telling you where to go. some no room for error, no clues to explore to figure out what to do next. like i know the games aimed at a younger audience but it literally feels like a straight line.

 

wasnt talking about the story (i dont think its linear) but my bad, i should have elaborated 

 or *cough*laziness*cough*

 

there is NO reason for bustling places like agrabah, halloweentown, twilight town etc. to be DEAD empty. not a single soul roaming the streets is slightly more unbelievable than a talking mouse for president or smacking people with a key

 

but tats just my opinion 

..................But every stage in is filled with obstacles and treasure chests and some can even get to be miles high! Have you not SEEN the rooms in Dream Drop Distance!? They're the largest rooms in the entire series, they're filled to the brim with exploration! And how exactly can you have a room "not go in a line"? You have a point A and you have a point B. You can twist and turn it in whatever way you like, but you still have to move from THIS side of the room to THAT side of the room. The logic of what you're saying makes no sense to me. Do you want to go more up, more down? Diagonal? Have the door be a little to the left or right of the first door? Do you want the rooms to be a million stories higher or 2 thousand leagues deeper? Do you want more things standing in your way, more hidden secret rooms, passages, shortcuts, treasure chests? More volume?

Edited November 9, 2015 by WakelessDream

[Green Sparrow 795]

I definitely want NPCs, but only where they should be. For example, in the forest for the Tangled world, there is no reason to run into any NPCs. But if you have to compete in another tournament in the Olympus Coliseum world, the stadium better be PACKED!

[Drake'ro 11]

I completely agree, I think that nobody wanna see an abandoned Fransokyo while we'll play in that world.

[Hearts Creed 142]

Yeah, it should definitely have more NPCs, but I never thought of KH games as linear.

[GroovingOnUp 163]

Linearity/lack of exploration has already been resolved with DDD.

 

I'm not even sure if they're aware of the complaints of dead/empty worlds as i have never seen them mention it.But yeah a major complaint for the series for me,especially when you see how lively the Disney movies are while the kh counterparts are just lifeless.

 

It really takes the charm and enjoyment out of a world when they do that.

Edited November 7, 2015 by GroovingOnUp

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

Well, supposedly the worlds in KH3 consist of one, big, giant room.

[Col.Random 3,683]

it can be linear as long as they remove the ridiculousness of being told that "the crowd is cheering for you" or "the people are being scared/attacked" only to see ABSOLUTELY NO ONE in the surrounding areas.I don't see why they can't add more npcs

[HeartlessAqua 38]

KH1, although kinda clunky, had some nice worlds with little secrets here and there and sometimes several different ways of exploring the same room. I liked those worlds better than most of the worlds in other KH games. Would be great if more worlds in the sequels could have this kind of detail, and gameplay that improves upon what the first game set up.

 

But the other games aren't entirely devoid of such exploration. Maybe not to the same extent as KH1 sadly, but there's a little bit of it in BBS, and a LOT of it in KH3D, which had fantastically huge worlds full of secrets and extra rooms and corridors.

 

Judging by the trailers, I assume KH3 will do what KH3D did. Huge maps with lots of little side areas in them.

 

As for idle NPCs, I don't think they're necessary. I'd love them of course, but I don't think we need them a whole lot. The only time I actually cringed from the lack of NPCs was in The Hunchback of Notre Dame world, with a Festival of four people at most and a Gypsy population of one. Made Frollo look kinda goofy ranting and hating people who seemingly didn't exist.

Edited November 7, 2015 by HeartlessAqua

[Forever 3,550]

And yet the first few games centered around a trio of colorfully clothed goofballs carrying a giant Key fighting shadowy monsters by shouting out loud battle cries while making huge explosions that shake whole areas.

 

Then again, no one was caught. X)

 

i mean i was saying compared to the kinds of games i play. kh is like the only jrpg (???) series i enjoy so its different for me, which is why it just feels like walking in a straaight line or having someone hold my hand as i play the game :x 

 

idk if kh3 doesnt have populated worlds ima be mega pissed 

 

 

NOMURALOGIC!

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

i mean i was saying compared to the kinds of games i play. kh is like the only jrpg (???) series i enjoy so its different for me, which is why it just feels like walking in a straaight line or having someone hold my hand as i play the game :x 

 

idk if kh3 doesnt have populated worlds ima be mega pissed 

I don't understand. Exactly HOW does it feel like "walking in a straight line" or like it's "someone holding your hand" to you? I honestly don't see where you're coming from on this.

[Ghost 1,857]

I don't understand. Exactly HOW does it feel like "walking in a straight line" or like it's "someone holding your hand" to you? I honestly don't see where you're coming from on this.

 well then i guess i cant explain it to you then i legit cannot get any simpler than that

Edited November 9, 2015 by WakelessDream

[velvetlovetts 10]

The mail room in traverse town on KHDDD is super awesome.

 

To me, Kingdom Hearts 3 only has to add a few NPC's, and give me big worlds like on DDD. (Which has already been promised.) I understand people's logic in wanting NPC's, but I don't think it's a huge deal. Kingdom Hearts offers loads of other luxuries like swift combat, excellent character costumes, and exploration as a whole. Think about Twilight town on KH2. That world has a lot of people you can talk to, but we forget to give square credit for when they DID add the NPCs.

Edited November 8, 2015 by velvetlovetts

[Ghost 1,857]

The mail room in traverse town on KHDDD is super awesome.To me, Kingdom Hearts 3 only has to add a few NPC's, and give me big worlds like on DDD. (Which has already been promised.) I understand people's logic in wanting NPC's, but I don't think it's a huge deal. Kingdom Hearts offers loads of other luxuries like swift combat, excellent character costumes, and exploration as a whole. Think about Twilight town on KH2. That world has a lot of propel you can talk to, but we forget to give square credit for when they DID add the NPCs.

 

Sometimes it's just the little things. For me, it's having the worlds not be so empty.

[Exiblade7 1,917]

I don't really care if the worlds are linear or not because it doesn't really bother me at all. I prefer more linear games anyways and seeing more opened worlds in kh3 is between an okay and a meh

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

well then i guess i cant explain it to you then i legit cannot get any simpler than that

I'm sorry if I sound too intense, I'm just literally having a hard time understanding what your basis is for all this. Were you expecting this to be like a platformer where there are different routes to reach the same area or something like that? Because if so, I'm not sure a JRPG is exactly your best avenue for that. Otherwise, what I'm fuzzy on is this. When you say, moving in a linear fashion, it may sound simple: move from this door straight to that door over there. But there are other ways to go about that. You could start a door on level ground, but then have the other door be waaaaay below ground or waaaaay above ground. There is clearly a more complex and complicated way to get there. And yet in a manner of speaking you are still making the gradual "straight line" of progression from THIS door to THAT door, overall. But what if you had a door directly above or below the first door on the same wall. You'd still have to work your way up or down but from a bird's eye perspective it's almost as if you didn't go anywhere, but you clearly moved around.

 

Or maybe I'm being way too philosophical and what you are talking about is waaaay simpler than that.

 

Either way though, I'm sad to say that your logic behind it really confuses me. First you say that everything is like a straight line when clearly not every room is the case, Monstro in KH being a very apparent example of how some worlds aren't as straight-forward as others. Then you say that there is almost no room to explore. Again I ask, have you not played Dream Drop DIstance (or if so, how have you been playing it exactly?)? Because that game has so many nooks and crannies to look through and discover that you could very well miss up to 10 abilities if you aren't diligent enough. And KH2 had a lot of exploration in it too, and Birth by Sleeps added dimension into it's areas made certain abilities or unlockables only accessable after you earn certain abilities, or at least they invite you to be creative with how you obtain them early. And between those three games alone, you have A LOT of stuff to explore, find, and discover. And lastly the whole concept of getting from one end of the room to the next is a relatively simple concept already, there's not much you can do to surprise someone, unless you did something like put the next door below or above the first door, being the last places you would naturally look.

 

And by map what are you referring to? The room itself or the actual little map icon that's up at the top corner of the screen that tells you where to go? Because if it's that, then...yeah, it's supposed to be simple. Maybe the little map/compass thing isn't for everybody, but it's certainly not killing anyone's experiences, and often times I find that the maps in the later games get so large and complex that I need to look back every now and then to get a good idea of where I'm trying to go anyway, so it's not exactly some kind of "training wheels" for younger players. It's meant to help people out, not hold their hand.

Edited November 9, 2015 by WakelessDream

[Dave 5,715]

I'm sorry if I sound too intense, I'm just literally having a hard time understanding what your basis is for all this. Were you expecting this to be like a platformer where there are different routes to reach the same area or something like that? Because if so, I'm not sure a JRPG is exactly your best avenue for that. Otherwise, what I'm fuzzy on is this. When you say, moving in a linear fashion, it may sound simple: move from this door straight to that door over there. But there are other ways to go about that. You could start a door on level ground, but then have the other door be waaaaay below ground or waaaaay above ground. There is clearly a more complex and complicated way to get there. And yet in a manner of speaking you are still making the gradual "straight line" of progression from THIS door to THAT door, overall. But what if you had a door directly above or below the first door on the same wall. You'd still have to work your way up or down but from a bird's eye perspective it's almost as if you didn't go anywhere, but you clearly moved around.

 

 

 

My own take on the idea of the level construction being linear is that while, yes, there will always be an element of getting from Point A to Point B in most game design, there's a difference between making it like a hallway as opposed to making several facets to explore and go down. The level design for much of Kingdom Hearts, at least since KH2, has been to have the world consisting primarily of one stage at a time, with exactly one entrance and one exit, which leads to and from other similarly designed stages. Those individual stages might be bigger or smaller depending on what's in them, but there's still not a ton of variation in how to go about navigating them. Using DDD as an example, those stages might be exponentially bigger, and there might be more treasure chests here and there in them, but there's still ultimately only one way and one way only that you can proceed through them, with one entrance and one exit.

 

A good counter-example to discuss how to NOT do linear level design is actually KH1. Places like Wonderland, Monstro, and the Deep Jungle (to name a few) had a number of ways to navigate in between areas and getting from place to place. A far greater example, on an overall game design level, would be Dark Souls, in which a great many of the places and levels of the game are interwoven, offering access from numerous angles and giving the player more options as to how they navigate through the adventure.

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

My own take on the idea of the level construction being linear is that while, yes, there will always be an element of getting from Point A to Point B in most game design, there's a difference between making it like a hallway as opposed to making several facets to explore and go down. The level design for much of Kingdom Hearts, at least since KH2, has been to have the world consisting primarily of one stage at a time, with exactly one entrance and one exit, which leads to and from other similarly designed stages. Those individual stages might be bigger or smaller depending on what's in them, but there's still not a ton of variation in how to go about navigating them. Using DDD as an example, those stages might be exponentially bigger, and there might be more treasure chests here and there in them, but there's still ultimately only one way and one way only that you can proceed through them, with one entrance and one exit.

 

A good counter-example to discuss how to NOT do linear level design is actually KH1. Places like Wonderland, Monstro, and the Deep Jungle (to name a few) had a number of ways to navigate in between areas and getting from place to place. A far greater example, on an overall game design level, would be Dark Souls, in which a great many of the places and levels of the game are interwoven, offering access from numerous angles and giving the player more options as to how they navigate through the adventure.

Well that makes a lot more sense, I feel that does a far better job of explaining it than what I said.

 

I guess ultimately when you get right down to it, it's all about what your tastes are. Personally I think the way KH has been doing it so far has been fine, it doesn't feel like that big of an issue with me and it doesn't bug me that much. And no matter what, it looks like KH3 is going to satisfy everybody's tastes anyway as they will have a general "get to there from here" mentality while still offering many ways to approach the goal (if Mount Olympus is any indication, what with the being able to jump off ridges to get to other or previous sections or areas). And since the whole worlds are supposed to be more seamless in their transitions from area to area (or if they really are to become just one large "room") then that would suggest that in order to traverse such a huge world there must be creative ways to get around and back to previous areas.

 

But again, sometimes the approach also depends on the world. Wonderland's approach in KH made sense since Wonderland itself is a crazy place that rarely ever makes sense, so the fact that there are bizarre methods of getting to different areas through different means fits the world perfectly. With a world like, say Monstro from DDD, the set up of that map makes more sense than the KH version does, as it follows the traditional rules of a digestive system, being that everything is meant to follow one direction and not take detours anywhere else (I mean it's supposed to go "down" but this is a whale so maybe it has to go "forward" for anything to work, and it's certainly better than "up"). Different worlds will have different natures, so the set up of the map should follow those natures a bit more closely rather than just trying to stick with just one kind of method of progression. Have a strange world with bizarre rules? Give multiple passageways or routes to the same and different areas to capture that peculiarity. Have a world that has a set order to it, like a building with hallways or even yet another trip into a whale? Then make everything really directional and straightforward like you would expect, with very few or no detours or shortcuts whatsoever. Or if you're just going for a world that has a more varied or realistic approach in terms of nature? Then it would apply best to the areas that it fit in. Like say if you went to Agrabah again, there could be multiple different types of areas that could have various natures to them. If you were in the city streets, there could be multiple pathways, avenues, archways, etc. that could get you to various places in different ways. In theory this would allow you to reach an area like the palace in a number of different directions and angles. But if you were in a temple such as the Cave of Wonders or whatever the place from the third movie was called, everything would be designed with the very intent of making sure you don't get to the center or treasure room until you pass through each room one at a time. So logically it would make more sense to have those kinds of areas be very straightforward and not allow you the same free reign that an open city might give you.

 

There's lots of ways to go about it. Thanks for the insight Dave, I think this might have helped me understand Ghost's point a little bit better.