Why did Sora turn into a Shadow?

[Felixx 6,646]

In KH1 Sora released his own heart in order to save Kairi, whose heart was in Sora. Because of this, Sora turned into a Heartless, that's obvious.

But why was it a Shadow? A Shadow is the lowest Heartless in the KH universe, I mean there exist literally millions or even billions of them, because every ordinary guy who loses his heart to the darkness turns into a Shadow.

But Sora is no ordinary boy (even though Nomura tries to convince us otherwise), he's a Keyblade wielder and he has a strong heart, or else Roxas wouldn't exist, that's proof enough that his heart is strong.

For example, Xehanort's Heartless is the only one with a human form, because he had such a strong will and heart. I'm not saying that Sora's Heartless should have a human form too, since he was not nearly as strong as Xehanort at that moment, but it should be at least a stronger Heartless.

So why a Shadow?

[Master Eraqus 1,340]

Why a Shadow? Him turning into a Shadow shows that Sora didn't/doesn't have a lot of darkness in his heart.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

The strength of the heartless is determined by how much darkness is in your heart. Sora did not have a lot of darkness nor do most people.

[HeyMouseSayCheese 1,133]

The strength of the heartless is determined by how much darkness is in your heart. Sora did not have a lot of darkness nor do most people.

 

Yeah, Sora is too nice to become a cool Heartless. Xehanort was full of a firetruck-ton of darkness, so of course he became a super Heartless.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Yeah, Sora is too nice to become a cool Heartless. Xehanort was full of a firetruck-ton of darkness, so of course he became a super Heartless.

 

Yep and the fact he willingly chose to do that gave him a more human form. He still needed to steal Riku's body to look his finest teehee. I wonder what he looked like under that cloak.

[Felixx 6,646]

The strength of the heartless is determined by how much darkness is in your heart. Sora did not have a lot of darkness nor do most people.

 

I always thought it's determined by how strong the person is, not how much darkness his heart has. But I have to say this makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clarifying that to me

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

I always thought it's determined by how strong the person is, not how much darkness his heart has. But I have to say this makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clarifying that to me

 

Now you know

[Ultima Spark 753]

I wonder what he looked like under that cloak.

 

Incorporeal? So probably just a sapient dark mist cloud or something. (The reports do note that he didn't instantly take that form, though.)

Edited October 3, 2015 by Ultima Spark

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Incorporeal? So probably just a sapient dark mist cloud or something. (The reports do note that he didn't instantly take that form, though.)

 

I know but I have always wondered what was under that cloak lol. There was a reason why he needed a body. Sora and he were able to keep their sense of self and thought process and thus be more human bc as was previously said- they willingly gave up their heart.

[KeybladeLordCheeseCurd 1,542]

I know but I have always wondered what was under that cloak lol. There was a reason why he needed a body. Sora and he were able to keep their sense of self and thought process and thus be more human bc as was previously said- they willingly gave up their heart.

I'll tell you what was under that brown cloak. JOHN CENA!!!

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

Because the level of Heartless you are depends on how much Darkness is in your heart. People with higher levels of Darkness become more monstrous looking, the highest could even retain their human form if their overall power is huge. People with lower levels of Darkness however become weaker or more common Heartless. Sora turned into a Shadow because although he does have Darkness in his heart like everyone else, he doesn't have that much of it. His light is much more powerful than his Darkness is. It's not to say that it couldn't be strengthened in some way, as Dream Drop Distance has shown that outside influences can cause someone's Darkness to become enough to consume them in sleep. And the sheer fact that he has been a pseudo-Heartless for about a whole year and has acquired Anti Form as a penalty form probably suggests that perhaps his Darkness has strengthened a little bit. But nonetheless his Darkness is still too weak to produce a formidable enough Heartless.

 

Although if Data-Sora's Heartless is indication enough, perhaps it could be said that Hearless on their own could have the potential to strengthen and evolve over time, as we have seen that at least one Heartless was able to grow itself by cannibalistically devouring other Heartless, and Data-Sora's Heartless was able to evolve in the Datascape by absorbing the minds or evil intentions of the felled Data-Heartless in the digital world. This would suggest that Heartless can evolve either by feeding off of more Darkness or even simply by feeding off of it's own kind. So if Data-Sora's Heartless was able to grow and evolve that much through the Datascape, perhaps there is a chance that if Sora's Heartless was given a similar opportunity or ambition it could have been able to evolve in a similar manner as well.

 

But such possibility is irrelevant as Sora's Heartless still held onto his feelings as a human and didn't exist as a Heartless long enough to even feel his natural instincts, let alone discover any desire to grow more powerful. The fact is he was a lowly Shadow because he had a very small amount of Darkness in his heart. Whether he is special or not, if you don't have that much Darkness in you then you aren't going to become that special of a Heartless. And the rules with Nobodies is that you must have a strong Heart and Will, not Darkness. Sora had a weak Darkness but had a strong heart and will, so he was able to produce a more human Nobody despite his weak Heartless. Both Sora and Xehanort are interesting exceptions to a lot of the rules of heart-related afterlife, but for different reasons and in different ways. They just keep finding newer ways to bend the rules while still following most of them. And while I will say that for the most part Sora is inherently "normal", he is noteworthy in that he is currently holding onto somebody's heart and has a natural tendency to be connected to anyone he meets. So whether this just has to do with his open heart and personality being just part of his nature (thus him just being "normal" or "natural") or it is simply a statement that ANYONE could do those kinds of things if they opened their heart, either way it shows that Sora doesn't have to have been destined for something like Riku or Xehanort have. That's the way in which he is special, he couldn't have been a factor at all, he could have never been involed in any of this, the sheer fact that he is affecting things so much already is an anomaly in itself. The reason he is so impossible is because he is so normal, so unlikely.

 

Or if you were to look at it through a Dragon Ball Z fan's perspective, "normality is bull$#!*."

 

I know but I have always wondered what was under that cloak lol. There was a reason why he needed a body. Sora and he were able to keep their sense of self and thought process and thus be more human bc as was previously said- they willingly gave up their heart.

Probably just a floating heart. Young Xehanort said himself that when Ansem first encountered him, he was "reduced to just a heart". This would imply that whether he had a human Heartless form or not upon forming, he gave that body up in order to travel through time. The fact that a Heartess is just a heart consumed by Darkness however probably helped in his ability to live on without a "body" to speak of, so the robe was likely just part of his "non-body body", or his heart giving a makeshift form to roam the land of the living in as minimalist a way as possible. It can't do much, but it's enough to do what he had to. I'd imagine that it would look kind of similar to how the Phantom Heartless worked in that there is just a floating orb hidden away inside there, unless that's just his whole heart disguised as a robe. In either case, the whole idea of the design is for it to look like there's nothing in there, or at least little more than a heart. The fact that it just looks like an animated article of clothing is enough of a giveaway.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Hero of Light XIV

[Felixx 6,646]

Because the level of Heartless you are depends on how much Darkness is in your heart. People with higher levels of Darkness become more monstrous looking, the highest could even retain their human form if their overall power is huge. People with lower levels of Darkness however become weaker or more common Heartless. Sora turned into a Shadow because although he does have Darkness in his heart like everyone else, he doesn't have that much of it. His light is much more powerful than his Darkness is. It's not to say that it couldn't be strengthened in some way, as Dream Drop Distance has shown that outside influences can cause someone's Darkness to become enough to consume them in sleep. And the sheer fact that he has been a pseudo-Heartless for about a whole year and has acquired Anti Form as a penalty form probably suggests that perhaps his Darkness has strengthened a little bit. But nonetheless his Darkness is still too weak to produce a formidable enough Heartless. Although if Data-Sora's Heartless is indication enough, perhaps it could be said that Hearless on their own could have the potential to strengthen and evolve over time, as we have seen that at least one Heartless was able to grow itself by cannibalistically devouring other Heartless, and Data-Sora's Heartless was able to evolve in the Datascape by absorbing the minds or evil intentions of the felled Data-Heartless in the digital world. This would suggest that Heartless can evolve either by feeding off of more Darkness or even simply by feeding off of it's own kind. So if Data-Sora's Heartless was able to grow and evolve that much through the Datascape, perhaps there is a chance that if Sora's Heartless was given a similar opportunity or ambition it could have been able to evolve in a similar manner as well. But such possibility is irrelevant as Sora's Heartless still held onto his feelings as a human and didn't exist as a Heartless long enough to even feel his natural instincts, let alone discover any desire to grow more powerful. The fact is he was a lowly Shadow because he had a very small amount of Darkness in his heart. Whether he is special or not, if you don't have that much Darkness in you then you aren't going to become that special of a Heartless. And the rules with Nobodies is that you must have a strong Heart and Will, not Darkness. Sora had a weak Darkness but had a strong heart and will, so he was able to produce a more human Nobody despite his weak Heartless. Both Sora and Xehanort are interesting exceptions to a lot of the rules of heart-related afterlife, but for different reasons and in different ways. They just keep finding newer ways to bend the rules while still following most of them. And while I will say that for the most part Sora is inherently "normal", he is noteworthy in that he is currently holding onto somebody's heart and has a natural tendency to be connected to anyone he meets. So whether this just has to do with his open heart and personality being just part of his nature (thus him just being "normal" or "natural") or it is simply a statement that ANYONE could do those kinds of things if they opened their heart, either way it shows that Sora doesn't have to have been destined for something like Riku or Xehanort have. That's the way in which he is special, he couldn't have been a factor at all, he could have never been involed in any of this, the sheer fact that he is affecting things so much already is an anomaly in itself. The reason he is so impossible is because he is so normal, so unlikely. Or if you were to look at it through a Dragon Ball Z fan's perspective, "normality is bull$#!*." Probably just a floating heart. Young Xehanort said himself that when Ansem first encountered him, he was "reduced to just a heart". This would imply that whether he had a human Heartless form or not upon forming, he gave that body up in order to travel through time. The fact that a Heartess is just a heart consumed by Darkness however probably helped in his ability to live on without a "body" to speak of, so the robe was likely just part of his "non-body body", or his heart giving a makeshift form to roam the land of the living in as minimalist a way as possible. It can't do much, but it's enough to do what he had to. I'd imagine that it would look kind of similar to how the Phantom Heartless worked in that there is just a floating orb hidden away inside there, unless that's just his whole heart disguised as a robe. In either case, the whole idea of the design is for it to look like there's nothing in there, or at least little more than a heart. The fact that it just looks like an animated article of clothing is enough of a giveaway.

Thank you man for taking your time to write such a long answer. I really appreciate it

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

 

 

Probably just a floating heart. Young Xehanort said himself that when Ansem first encountered him, he was "reduced to just a heart". This would imply that whether he had a human Heartless form or not upon forming, he gave that body up in order to travel through time. The fact that a Heartess is just a heart consumed by Darkness however probably helped in his ability to live on without a "body" to speak of, so the robe was likely just part of his "non-body body", or his heart giving a makeshift form to roam the land of the living in as minimalist a way as possible. It can't do much, but it's enough to do what he had to. I'd imagine that it would look kind of similar to how the Phantom Heartless worked in that there is just a floating orb hidden away inside there, unless that's just his whole heart disguised as a robe. In either case, the whole idea of the design is for it to look like there's nothing in there, or at least little more than a heart. The fact that it just looks like an animated article of clothing is enough of a giveaway.

 

 

He meant that he was a heartless. This says nothing of his actual form or shape. Secondly if he had a human shaped heart body and all like Sora had after Kairi purified him and gave him a body like shell this still means he had no 'physical body". So therefore regardless he would have no actual body to shed to time travel since he still wasn't a real physical body. He was just still a heartless. A heartless is not a physical body. It's a physical manifestation of the darkness in ones heart. That's why he needed Riku's body in the first place and after he was in Riku it was said he then could no longer TT.

 

Personally that cloaked figure looked like a hunched over deformed person or form.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Flaming Lea

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

Thank you man for taking your time to write such a long answer. I really appreciate it

Hey no problem! I typically tend to type this long anyways. :D"

 

He meant that he was a heartless. This says nothing of his actual form or shape. Secondly if he had a human shaped heart body and all like Sora had after Kairi purified him and gave him a body like shell this still means he had no 'physical body". So therefore regardless he would have no actual body to shed to time travel since he still wasn't a real physical body. He was just still a heartless. A heartless is not a physical body. It's a physical manifestation of the darkness in ones heart. That's why he needed Riku's body in the first place and after he was in Riku it was said he then could no longer TT.

 

Personally that cloaked figure looked like a hunched over deformed person or form.

I'm not sure if that's all he meant. But maybe being a Heartless is a kind of loophole into meeting the requirements for Time Travel. I always thought of it that way. Perhaps it was part of the overall plan that by turning into a Heartless he was giving up his body, so only his bodyless self, i.e. Ansem, could hold onto the power to Time Travel. So maybe instead of having a human form as a Heartless to give up, the sheer act of Terranort giving up his body gave Ansem the ability to TT. Maybe as a side effect it rendered him without a Heartless-y looking form and reduced him to a simple form of a cloak. And I'm pretty sure there's not meant to be much hiding under that thing aside from a heart since there is no shown proof of any limbs or parts underneath that coat. Unless he was the size of a kid or something and can't get his arms out of the sleeves, but that would be ridiculous. Regardless though, the look is supposed to look foreboding, so maybe it doesn't really matter what's under there, we just know that that is his Hearless form after time traveling and before possessing Riku so maybe that is enough.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Hey no problem! I typically tend to type this long anyways. :D"

 

I'm not sure if that's all he meant. But maybe being a Heartless is a kind of loophole into meeting the requirements for Time Travel. I always thought of it that way. Perhaps it was part of the overall plan that by turning into a Heartless he was giving up his body, so only his bodyless self, i.e. Ansem, could hold onto the power to Time Travel. So maybe instead of having a human form as a Heartless to give up, the sheer act of Terranort giving up his body gave Ansem the ability to TT. Maybe as a side effect it rendered him without a Heartless-y looking form and reduced him to a simple form of a cloak. And I'm pretty sure there's not meant to be much hiding under that thing aside from a heart since there is no shown proof of any limbs or parts underneath that coat. Unless he was the size of a kid or something and can't get his arms out of the sleeves, but that would be ridiculous. Regardless though, the look is supposed to look foreboding, so maybe it doesn't really matter what's under there, we just know that that is his Hearless form after time traveling and before possessing Riku so maybe that is enough.

 

That's exactly what he meant- even Nomura refers to Ansem as just a heart as much as hes called him a heartless bc technically he's both. All heartless are are hearts that captured by the darkness. Ansem got the power as a heartless bc he had no physical body. He went back in time and transferred the TT power to YMX so he would not need to shed his body to TT. This was all explained in game and by Nomura in interviews.

 

As for the cloaked figure he had a hood and sleeves that were filled with something not to mention a hunched like back. There was something under that cloak. Just because you don't see his hands doesn't mean there was nothing in those sleeves or the hood.

 

There is a definitive shape there otherwise it would be like throwing a blanket over an orb and it doesn't look like that does it?

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

That's exactly what he meant- even Nomura refers to Ansem as just a heart as much as hes called him a heartless bc technically he's both. All heartless are are hearts that captured by the darkness. Ansem got the power as a heartless bc he had no physical body. He went back in time and transferred the TT power to YMX so he would not need to shed his body to TT. This was all explained in game and by Nomura in interviews.

 

As for the cloaked figure he had a hood and sleeves that were filled with something not to mention a hunched like back. There was something under that cloak. Just because you don't see his hands doesn't mean there was nothing in those sleeves or the hood.

 

There is a definitive shape there otherwise it would be like throwing a blanket over an orb and it doesn't look like that does it?

Let's not forget that we're trying to apply real world logic and physics to a world where talking dogs exist alongside domesticated pet dogs, magic comes naturally to everyone, everybody speaks the exact same language, nobody dies from falling from thousands of feet, and clothes that aren't there underneath a simple black coat suddenly appear out of nowhere once it's removed. At this point, I don't think it's that far of a stretch to assume that this could simply be just a coat with nothing but a heart inside and it's just animated into the shape of a disfigured hunched up person. It also makes more sense artistically speaking, alluding to the fact that the being is empty and mysterious, fragile and frail, as if there was practically nothing there. If there was to be any actual mass underneath that thing, I wouldn't imagine anything more filling than a skeleton. This is just how my headcanon is working, so as long as what Ansem actually looks like under there doesn't become a significant plot point I don't think it matters if either of us are wrong or not.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Let's not forget that we're trying to apply real world logic and physics to a world where talking dogs exist alongside domesticated pet dogs, magic comes naturally to everyone, everybody speaks the exact same language, nobody dies from falling from thousands of feet, and clothes that aren't there underneath a simple black coat suddenly appear out of nowhere once it's removed. At this point, I don't think it's that far of a stretch to assume that this could simply be just a coat with nothing but a heart inside and it's just animated into the shape of a disfigured hunched up person. It also makes more sense artistically speaking, alluding to the fact that the being is empty and mysterious, fragile and frail, as if there was practically nothing there. If there was to be any actual mass underneath that thing, I wouldn't imagine anything more filling than a skeleton. This is just how my headcanon is working, so as long as what Ansem actually looks like under there doesn't become a significant plot point I don't think it matters if either of us are wrong or not.

 

See you are going at an angle right now of who is right or wrong over something I stated had no answer in the first place considering that's why I wondered in the first place. 

 

My point is to me I am curious to what is under the cloak. It could be anything so how could either one of us be right? My point is you said it had no form when that pic I posted shows him holding up a sleeve and filling out a hood and even having an overall shape. This suggests it has a form. Which you say it does not. It also was said as fact he kept human like qualities due to willingly giving up his heart. We don't know how much that extends to. Either way it doesn't matter it is just something I wondered about while we were on the topic. I mean, like , look at MX's guardian he has human like qualities too and that's very curious.

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

 

Because the level of Heartless you are depends on how much Darkness is in your heart. People with higher levels of Darkness become more monstrous looking, the highest could even retain their human form if their overall power is huge. People with lower levels of Darkness however become weaker or more common Heartless. Sora turned into a Shadow because although he does have Darkness in his heart like everyone else, he doesn't have that much of it. His light is much more powerful than his Darkness is. It's not to say that it couldn't be strengthened in some way, as Dream Drop Distance has shown that outside influences can cause someone's Darkness to become enough to consume them in sleep. And the sheer fact that he has been a pseudo-Heartless for about a whole year and has acquired Anti Form as a penalty form probably suggests that perhaps his Darkness has strengthened a little bit. But nonetheless his Darkness is still too weak to produce a formidable enough Heartless.

 

Sora wasn't a pseudo Heartless after Kairi purified him he was a literal walking heart. A Heartless is darkness taking physical form after capturing and taking over the heart. Anti Form was the result of Sora's time as a Heartless and  there isn't anything too suggest that it the result of Sora's darkness.

 

 

 

 

Although if Data-Sora's Heartless is indication enough, perhaps it could be said that Hearless on their own could have the potential to strengthen and evolve over time, as we have seen that at least one Heartless was able to grow itself by cannibalistically devouring other Heartless, and Data-Sora's Heartless was able to evolve in the Datascape by absorbing the minds or evil intentions of the felled Data-Heartless in the digital world. This would suggest that Heartless can evolve either by feeding off of more Darkness or even simply by feeding off of it's own kind. So if Data-Sora's Heartless was able to grow and evolve that much through the Datascape, perhaps there is a chance that if Sora's Heartless was given a similar opportunity or ambition it could have been able to evolve in a similar manner as well.

 

 

 

Sora's Heartless in ReCoded is an exception to the rule because it was within the datascape. As Xemnas explained in the data world everything is capable of being manipulated and changed. Data-Sora's Heartless was able to consume the data of the Data Heartless and add it to it's own power something not done by Heartless. Actual Heartless (with the exception of Sora, and Ansem) act purely on instinct. They don't think, plan or have any type of thought process. They are driven by their instinct to capture hearts. 

 

 

Let's not forget that we're trying to apply real world logic and physics to a world where talking dogs exist alongside domesticated pet dogs, magic comes naturally to everyone, everybody speaks the exact same language, nobody dies from falling from thousands of feet, and clothes that aren't there underneath a simple black coat suddenly appear out of nowhere once it's removed. At this point, I don't think it's that far of a stretch to assume that this could simply be just a coat with nothing but a heart inside and it's just animated into the shape of a disfigured hunched up person. It also makes more sense artistically speaking, alluding to the fact that the being is empty and mysterious, fragile and frail, as if there was practically nothing there. If there was to be any actual mass underneath that thing, I wouldn't imagine anything more filling than a skeleton. This is just how my headcanon is working, so as long as what Ansem actually looks like under there doesn't become a significant plot point I don't think it matters if either of us are wrong or not.

But at the end of the day Ansem is a Heartless which by literal definition is a physical manifestation of darkness that has taken over the heart. Ansem is not like post- purification Sora who was a walking heart with a shell/pseudo body. Underneath that hood is some sort of physical form as to what that form takes is a mystery. 

[Oli 1,679]

I wonder what he looked like under that cloak.

 

Like Steve Buscemi, obviously

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

See you are going at an angle right now of who is right or wrong over something I stated had no answer in the first place considering that's why I wondered in the first place. 

 

My point is to me I am curious to what is under the cloak. It could be anything so how could either one of us be right? My point is you said it had no form when that pic I posted shows him holding up a sleeve and filling out a hood and even having an overall shape. This suggests it has a form. Which you say it does not. It also was said as fact he kept human like qualities due to willingly giving up his heart. We don't know how much that extends to. Either way it doesn't matter it is just something I wondered about while we were on the topic. I mean, like , look at MX's guardian he has human like qualities too and that's very curious.

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to go for that kind of angle.

 

And I'm not saying that there is simply nothing under there, I'm just saying that it could be in the style of an animated coat that simulates the form of a wearer despite not having any visible wearer. Or think of it more like a ghost or an invisible man. I've seen this kind of thing done before in fantasy and sci fi, I could easily see it apply here. I'm not saying it couldn't be an actual physical form under there, I'm just saying that due to the supernatural nature of KH's universe I would believe it to be just as plausible that the coat is the form itself, phantom-like where it's both there and not there at the same time. And that's just the theory I'm going with, and you're right it doesn't really matter. It's just how I answer that question when it comes to how I see it, yours could work too.

 

In regards to Xehanort's Guardian I've been a bit curious about that too. Someone offered a theory that maybe the Guardian came from Terra's heart, like his Darkness forcibly pulled out by Master Xehanort into a stand-like familiar (STAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRR GUARDIAAAAAAN!!!). Someone else theorizes that it might be Terra himself, or at least what's left of him or a piece of him left over. While there hasn't been too much to support this theory other than the Guardian disappearing after Xehanort stabbed himself to get rid of Terra's influence, the Guardian seemingly transports Aqua to a mindscape where she can try to rescue Terra (while still trying to stop her....well, can't all be winners), and curiously the way it reaches out towards Riku in 3D after Ansem's defeat and later subsiding before disappearing with Ansem after exchanging a look with Riku. Now granted those could have nothing to do with that theory, in fact they could all easily be seen as adversarial actions, simply disappearing because Master Xehanort locked away a bunch of his and Terra's memories and powers like a jackass and sending them into Darkness by accident, simply trying to restrain Aqua so Terranort can finish her off and trying to prevent Aqua from liberating Terra, and simply trying to get one last chance to finish off Riku before inevitably fading away with Ansem. It could likely be like that, it's just nothing but an extension of Xehanort's power, but interestingly the meaning and nature of all of those aforementioned moments feel entirely different when you look at them that way. It would be interesting to see if Nomura plans on expanding on that possibility with KH3, because if it does have something to do with Terra, it might help in figuring out just what the heck happened to him, because as far as things have been going, it seems to be suggested that the guy has pieces of himself everywhere (what with the Lingering Will, Terranort, Ansem, possibly Ansem's Guardian, Xemnas).

Sora wasn't a pseudo Heartless after Kairi purified him he was a literal walking heart. A Heartless is darkness taking physical form after capturing and taking over the heart. Anti Form was the result of Sora's time as a Heartless and  there isn't anything too suggest that it the result of Sora's darkness.

 

 

Sora's Heartless in ReCoded is an exception to the rule because it was within the datascape. As Xemnas explained in the data world everything is capable of being manipulated and changed. Data-Sora's Heartless was able to consume the data of the Data Heartless and add it to it's own power something not done by Heartless. Actual Heartless (with the exception of Sora, and Ansem) act purely on instinct. They don't think, plan or have any type of thought process. They are driven by their instinct to capture hearts. 

 

 

But at the end of the day Ansem is a Heartless which by literal definition is a physical manifestation of darkness that has taken over the heart. Ansem is not like post- purification Sora who was a walking heart with a shell/pseudo body. Underneath that hood is some sort of physical form as to what that form takes is a mystery. 

Except Nomura literally stated in an interview that between Hollow Bastion visit 1 and the end of Roxas' 7 days in the digital Twilight Town Sora could be considered "a sort of 'pseudo Heartless'". And he even hinted that Sora's time as a Heartless may have had some hand in the Anti Form penalty.

 

Except in-game they literally say "their minds". Whether or not a Heartless plans, schemes, or even has logic in it's nature, it has a mind. You don't have instinct without a mind to draw upon. Without a mind a body is pretty much like a zombie, which it's only motivation left is to preserve it's functions by consuming other creatures. While Heartless seem to mindlessly seek out hearts to devour, they don't have that as their soul objective. They also wish to grow their species and make more Heartless, as well as having an ultimate goal, devouring the world's heart. While you could argue that some types of zombies do this sort of thing too, that really depends on what is your reference point, most depicted zombies don't care one way or another if they are creating more of themselves, they're pretty much concerned with feeding. And since the Heartless are directly stated in-game as well as by Nomura to have a more animal-like instinct, this is supported by their instincts to survive by feeding AND further the production of their own kind. They still have a mind, a sense of being, but it only functions to focus the Heartless on basic survival instincts. They don't exactly have a hierarchy like the Nobodies do, although they are attracted to or intimidated by those who hold more Darkness or power, similar to how most animal packs work with an alpha. Just because they don't have complex cognitive abilities doesn't mean they have any minds to use. It IS a thought process, just a very very VERY simple one. As far as Data-Sora's Heartless being an exception, he's only an exception as far as a record of a Heartless becoming just as dangerous as a real Heartless. And as I pointed out, a similar behavior is seen in the Leechgrave from Days. Instead of minds however, it literally consumes the Heartless, possibly growing from the hearts they are made of or captured. This shows that should what had happened with Data-Sora's Heartless have happened in the real world, the same results probably would have happened, just instead of their minds it would be growing from their hearts. 

 

There's been nothing to prove or disprove that there is a physical form under there. All we have are just visual observations. There is just as much chance of magical nothing being underneath that hood as there is of some kind of physical form. It probably doesn't really matter though since it doesn't seem like a major plot point that needs revealing.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Hero of Light XIV

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to go for that kind of angle.

 

And I'm not saying that there is simply nothing under there, I'm just saying that it could be in the style of an animated coat that simulates the form of a wearer despite not having any visible wearer. Or think of it more like a ghost or an invisible man. I've seen this kind of thing done before in fantasy and sci fi, I could easily see it apply here. I'm not saying it couldn't be an actual physical form under there, I'm just saying that due to the supernatural nature of KH's universe I would believe it to be just as plausible that the coat is the form itself, phantom-like where it's both there and not there at the same time. And that's just the theory I'm going with, and you're right it doesn't really matter. It's just how I answer that question when it comes to how I see it, yours could work too.

 

In regards to Xehanort's Guardian I've been a bit curious about that too. Someone offered a theory that maybe the Guardian came from Terra's heart, like his Darkness forcibly pulled out by Master Xehanort into a stand-like familiar (STAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRR GUARDIAAAAAAN!!!). Someone else theorizes that it might be Terra himself, or at least what's left of him or a piece of him left over. While there hasn't been too much to support this theory other than the Guardian disappearing after Xehanort stabbed himself to get rid of Terra's influence, the Guardian seemingly transports Aqua to a mindscape where she can try to rescue Terra (while still trying to stop her....well, can't all be winners), and curiously the way it reaches out towards Riku in 3D after Ansem's defeat and later subsiding before disappearing with Ansem after exchanging a look with Riku. Now granted those could have nothing to do with that theory, in fact they could all easily be seen as adversarial actions, simply disappearing because Master Xehanort locked away a bunch of his and Terra's memories and powers like a jackass and sending them into Darkness by accident, simply trying to restrain Aqua so Terranort can finish her off and trying to prevent Aqua from liberating Terra, and simply trying to get one last chance to finish off Riku before inevitably fading away with Ansem. It could likely be like that, it's just nothing but an extension of Xehanort's power, but interestingly the meaning and nature of all of those aforementioned moments feel entirely different when you look at them that way. It would be interesting to see if Nomura plans on expanding on that possibility with KH3, because if it does have something to do with Terra, it might help in figuring out just what the heck happened to him, because as far as things have been going, it seems to be suggested that the guy has pieces of himself everywhere (what with the Lingering Will, Terranort, Ansem, possibly Ansem's Guardian, Xemnas).

 

 

Ok I see what you mean - you think the cloak might be his form. Maybe or maybe not who knows lol

 

As for Terra and the guardian - remember how Aqua and Terra can perform a dual limit on him together? This kinda eliminates the guardian being Terra. Most theories on the Guardian have flaws or are discredited by other facts so I have yet to hear a solid theory on it that I can buy into. I would go into more details on that but I do not want to go off topic here

 

As for "pseudo heartless" I think you missed what Nomura was saying. He's directly referring to the fact that Sora was literally a walking heart but since he was purified by Kairi and given a shell like 'body' he wasn't a heartless anymore either per se.

 

As for heartless what robbie was saying was heartless generally do not have a plan or a thought process they just go around consuming hearts on impulse with no real plan or thought process as to what they are doing. They just do. They have no memories of who they were or their past identity and exist on impulse. Even when they steal hearts it's instinctual and with no real intent in mind other than to consume more hearts. Ansem was the exception to this rule and by extention so was Sora but for very different circumstances involving Kairi intervening and purifying him in time before he completely lost himself and thus making him a walking heart instead of a heartless per se.

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

 

Except Nomura literally stated in an interview that between Hollow Bastion visit 1 and the end of Roxas' 7 days in the digital Twilight Town Sora could be considered "a sort of 'pseudo Heartless'". And he even hinted that Sora's time as a Heartless may have had some hand in the Anti Form penalty.

 

You're taking that way too literal they draw the comparison because like a Heartless Sora became a heart that had taken physical form. However Sora is not classified Heartless as he was stated to be a walking heart even by Nomura. Also Sora's clothes were designed to draw out his unused potential drawing out his full capacity of power. It makes perfect sense to include the darkness within him as part of that power which manifests as Anti-Form when he draws too much power. You're trying to draw a line of connection between two things that have nothing to do with each other. After Kairi purified him he was no longer considered a Heartless as he was now purified. His time as a Heartless is exclusive to the time he spent as a Shadow. This was even the given reason as to why Roxas was born with none of Sora's memories because of the fact that Sora's time as a Heartless was so short.

 

 

 

Except in-game they literally say "their minds". Whether or not a Heartless plans, schemes, or even has logic in it's nature, it has a mind. You don't have instinct without a mind to draw upon. Without a mind a body is pretty much like a zombie, which it's only motivation left is to preserve it's functions by consuming other creatures. While Heartless seem to mindlessly seek out hearts to devour, they don't have that as their soul objective. They also wish to grow their species and make more Heartless, as well as having an ultimate goal, devouring the world's heart. While you could argue that some types of zombies do this sort of thing too, that really depends on what is your reference point, most depicted zombies don't care one way or another if they are creating more of themselves, they're pretty much concerned with feeding. And since the Heartless are directly stated in-game as well as by Nomura to have a more animal-like instinct, this is supported by their instincts to survive by feeding AND further the production of their own kind. They still have a mind, a sense of being, but it only functions to focus the Heartless on basic survival instincts. They don't exactly have a hierarchy like the Nobodies do, although they are attracted to or intimidated by those who hold more Darkness or power, similar to how most animal packs work with an alpha. Just because they don't have complex cognitive abilities doesn't mean they have any minds to use. It IS a thought process, just a very very VERY simple one. As far as Data-Sora's Heartless being an exception, he's only an exception as far as a record of a Heartless becoming just as dangerous as a real Heartless. And as I pointed out, a similar behavior is seen in the Leechgrave from Days. Instead of minds however, it literally consumes the Heartless, possibly growing from the hearts they are made of or captured. This shows that should what had happened with Data-Sora's Heartless have happened in the real world, the same results probably would have happened, just instead of their minds it would be growing from their hearts. 

 

There's been nothing to prove or disprove that there is a physical form under there. All we have are just visual observations. There is just as much chance of magical nothing being underneath that hood as there is of some kind of physical form. It probably doesn't really matter though since it doesn't seem like a major plot point that needs revealing.

This completely contradicts what you're trying to argue before you're trying to argue that Heartless were capable of ambition and planning  then argue the opposite in this post. The Heartless are purely instinctual plain and simple. This means they don't consume hearts as a means of survival especially considering that consuming hearts does nothing for their survival. Basic instinct is not something that has to be thought about it is just done. The Heartless have an innate yearning for hearts and act solely on that that yearning.  Everything they do is to satisfy that yearning and the results of their actions in the attempt is mere byproduct of it. 

 

In this realm, where all existence has been disintegrated, I have just barely managed to preserve my sense of self by continuing to think and to write.It is a place where even time has lost all meaning. Eternity is as but a moment here.I must make haste. Certainly their plans are already underway.The Heartless must be the key to unraveling this mystery.The six traitors were operating a laboratory that churned out those cursed shadows.Not only did they generate "pureblood" Heartless from living hearts, but they then used those Heartless to synthesize artificial versions of the creatures as well.These synthetic Heartless bore insignias and were called "Emblems."Pureblood or Emblem, these Heartless act only to fulfill their instinctive needs. They single-mindedly detect hearts and swarm around them.A human's commands would be ineffective: the Heartless would easily steal the human's heart and use it to increase their own ranks.But what if an even stronger Heartless was giving the orders?If he cast aside his own soul and body and became a Heartless, wouldn't he be able to control the otherwise intractable Heartless?Furthermore, wouldn't he be planning to make use of the creatures' instincts? If the heart-seeking Heartless have their sights set on a larger, more powerful heart, their ultimate goal is crystal-clear.The largest heart in existence—the heart of the world.This is all conjecture, but it would seem he is utilizing the Heartless in his search for a path leading to the heart of the world.

 

No Data-Sora's Heartless is an exception because it's in it's own category. Unlike a normal Heartless Sora's Heartless had a sense of self. It was able to actively  think and plan. He actively made himself stronger with the goal of becoming strong enough to cross into the real world. He was not instinctual and operated according to his own plans. Xehanort's Heartless was the same as Ansem was clearly had his own schemes and actively used the others to further his own schemes. Data-Sora's Heartless is also different from the real Sora's Heartless because within Datascape it was able become it's own entity free from Sora's influence despite being a part of him. It was able to choose it's own role with the journal in the same way Roxas was able to choose his own role.

[Gwynbleidd 551]

Ok I see what you mean - you think the cloak might be his form. Maybe or maybe not who knows lol

 

As for Terra and the guardian - remember how Aqua and Terra can perform a dual limit on him together? This kinda eliminates the guardian being Terra. Most theories on the Guardian have flaws or are discredited by other facts so I have yet to hear a solid theory on it that I can buy into. I would go into more details on that but I do not want to go off topic here

 

As for "pseudo heartless" I think you missed what Nomura was saying. He's directly referring to the fact that Sora was literally a walking heart but since he was purified by Kairi and given a shell like 'body' he wasn't a heartless anymore either per se.

 

As for heartless what robbie was saying was heartless generally do not have a plan or a thought process they just go around consuming hearts on impulse with no real plan or thought process as to what they are doing. They just do. They have no memories of who they were or their past identity and exist on impulse. Even when they steal hearts it's instinctual and with no real intent in mind other than to consume more hearts. Ansem was the exception to this rule and by extention so was Sora but for very different circumstances involving Kairi intervening and purifying him in time before he completely lost himself and thus making him a walking heart instead of a heartless per se.

 

Well said, Lea. I loved that boss fight and like you mentioned, it discredits the whole Terra being the guardian theory.

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

Ok I see what you mean - you think the cloak might be his form. Maybe or maybe not who knows lol

 

As for Terra and the guardian - remember how Aqua and Terra can perform a dual limit on him together? This kinda eliminates the guardian being Terra. Most theories on the Guardian have flaws or are discredited by other facts so I have yet to hear a solid theory on it that I can buy into. I would go into more details on that but I do not want to go off topic here

 

As for "pseudo heartless" I think you missed what Nomura was saying. He's directly referring to the fact that Sora was literally a walking heart but since he was purified by Kairi and given a shell like 'body' he wasn't a heartless anymore either per se.

 

As for heartless what robbie was saying was heartless generally do not have a plan or a thought process they just go around consuming hearts on impulse with no real plan or thought process as to what they are doing. They just do. They have no memories of who they were or their past identity and exist on impulse. Even when they steal hearts it's instinctual and with no real intent in mind other than to consume more hearts. Ansem was the exception to this rule and by extention so was Sora but for very different circumstances involving Kairi intervening and purifying him in time before he completely lost himself and thus making him a walking heart instead of a heartless per se.

Well either way it was put pretty vaguely. My only other frame of reference is Ansem, who was a Heartless AND a walking Heart, so it's only natural to assume that Sora was a pseudo-Heartless the whole time. And it's not like it's an incorrect term either way, pseudo is used to mean fake, not genuine, sham. With that in mind, it's not entirely wrong to call him that because at that point he is a NOT-Heartless but at the same time he isn't a complete being. He's physiologically similar to a Heartless, except his form isn't made of Darkness anymore and his mind is still present. This doesn't mean that I literally see him as nothing more than a Shadow that happens to have a more humany appearance, it just means that categorically speaking I see him as somewhere more in between Heartless/disembodied heart and full complete person.

 

And yeah, I find some issues with the Guardian theory as well, I even pointed out a flaw or two. I can still see why it's a popular theory though, as there are signs that could be interpreted as evidence towards that and it would make Terra's story a touch more tragic than it already is. Plus, if it was his Darkness and not him per-say, it would kind of make more sense, it's a powerful Darkness that can be easily manipulated by Xehanort, yet it's soul goal is towards protecting it's master. The sheer fact that it only exists to protect someone kind of gives off a Terra-y vibe. And if it is just his Darkness then it could still fit in the theory since it would both be able to work against Terra and his friends while still being an extension of himself. But that really depends on how far Nomura is willing to go with all of this, it could very well be that a few of us are just injecting a connection that isn't really there. It IS an interesting thing to consider though, that's all I'm saying.

 

And yeah, that's what I have been saying about my view on the Robed Man/Ansem as a Heart the whole time. The robe itself could be seen as the form, as well as a metaphor for the fact that a physical form is like an article of clothing that the heart may wear. It may wish to remain in it's familiar favorite garbs, but it has the potential to wear other "clothes". Xehanort certainly likes to adjust his "fashion" a lot, lol.

 

You're taking that way too literal they draw the comparison because like a Heartless Sora became a heart that had taken physical form. However Sora is not classified Heartless as he was stated to be a walking heart even by Nomura. Also Sora's clothes were designed to draw out his unused potential drawing out his full capacity of power. It makes perfect sense to include the darkness within him as part of that power which manifests as Anti-Form when he draws too much power. You're trying to draw a line of connection between two things that have nothing to do with each other. After Kairi purified him he was no longer considered a Heartless as he was now purified. His time as a Heartless is exclusive to the time he spent as a Shadow. This was even the given reason as to why Roxas was born with none of Sora's memories because of the fact that Sora's time as a Heartless was so short.

 

 

This completely contradicts what you're trying to argue before you're trying to argue that Heartless were capable of ambition and planning  then argue the opposite in this post. The Heartless are purely instinctual plain and simple. This means they don't consume hearts as a means of survival especially considering that consuming hearts does nothing for their survival. Basic instinct is not something that has to be thought about it is just done. The Heartless have an innate yearning for hearts and act solely on that that yearning.  Everything they do is to satisfy that yearning and the results of their actions in the attempt is mere byproduct of it. 

 

In this realm, where all existence has been disintegrated, I have just barely managed to preserve my sense of self by continuing to think and to write.It is a place where even time has lost all meaning. Eternity is as but a moment here.I must make haste. Certainly their plans are already underway.The Heartless must be the key to unraveling this mystery.The six traitors were operating a laboratory that churned out those cursed shadows.Not only did they generate "pureblood" Heartless from living hearts, but they then used those Heartless to synthesize artificial versions of the creatures as well.These synthetic Heartless bore insignias and were called "Emblems."Pureblood or Emblem, these Heartless act only to fulfill their instinctive needs. They single-mindedly detect hearts and swarm around them.A human's commands would be ineffective: the Heartless would easily steal the human's heart and use it to increase their own ranks.But what if an even stronger Heartless was giving the orders?If he cast aside his own soul and body and became a Heartless, wouldn't he be able to control the otherwise intractable Heartless?Furthermore, wouldn't he be planning to make use of the creatures' instincts? If the heart-seeking Heartless have their sights set on a larger, more powerful heart, their ultimate goal is crystal-clear.The largest heart in existence—the heart of the world.This is all conjecture, but it would seem he is utilizing the Heartless in his search for a path leading to the heart of the world.

 

No Data-Sora's Heartless is an exception because it's in it's own category. Unlike a normal Heartless Sora's Heartless had a sense of self. It was able to actively  think and plan. He actively made himself stronger with the goal of becoming strong enough to cross into the real world. He was not instinctual and operated according to his own plans. Xehanort's Heartless was the same as Ansem was clearly had his own schemes and actively used the others to further his own schemes. Data-Sora's Heartless is also different from the real Sora's Heartless because within Datascape it was able become it's own entity free from Sora's influence despite being a part of him. It was able to choose it's own role with the journal in the same way Roxas was able to choose his own role.

Maybe I am taking things a little too literally, but there is still something to what I'm saying. I just listed my reasoning behind the whole "pseudo naming thing", so I'm not going to dive deep into that again. I will say though that categorically speaking, Sora between KH1-KH2 as a "walking heart" seems to be more something in between a Heartless and a whole person, as he lacks a body but is not made up of pure Darkness anymore and has kept his thoughts, feelings, and personality.

 

I wasn't trying to infer that they strategize or have ambitions, but if it came off that way then I must have done a terrible job explaining my point and I apologize for that. What my main point was that instincts are a lesser form of thinking. They aren't something that you think about, consider, or toss around in your head, but they are notions that your mind makes up on the spot that you follow or are inclined to follow without question, the most primordial of these being survival (be it through consuming or attacking) and perpetuating your genes. My point with bringing zombies into this is that when you take the mind away there's even fewer instincts left over, so only the survival through consuming things instinct is left over, as that is the only thing the body cares about. I would feel more inclined to liken the Heartless to zombies as they seem to care mostly about feeding as you have pointed out, if it weren't for the fact that they are already likened to animals (at least, I could have sworn I saw it said somewhere in an official source...hmmmm). They don't have any huge "ambitions" or "plans", but they are described as having desires and goals. They are still very simple in nature, find and take the heart. World's heart = bigger heart, bigger heart = better heart. I see it less as them thinking "this would be more worth my time" and more like how an animal sees some giant shiny object or senses a larger collection of food somewhere nearby and just naturally goes there without considering anything. And a bigger sign of them being more animal like than zombie like is that while they don't have a social hierarchy like Nobodies do, they still do follow leadership under more powerful beings, typically stronger Heartless, like how a pack follows an alpha. And like most animals, should they detect even the slightest hint of weakness, they will instantly turn on them. They don't have any cognitive thought processes, just a very simple set of instincts that ensure that they stay alive. It doesn't mean that they consider their existence or have a sense of self or anything. They just know they are alive and they must do what they are compelled to do. It's not a lack of thinking, it's a very simplified lesser form of thinking, that's what I meant.

 

You keep leaving out my Leachgrave example. It shows that if compelled to for whatever reason, a Heartless could start feeding off of the hearts that other Heartless are made of, growing in size and power. While Sora's Heartless might not have retained a sense of self if it followed that path, it still would have grown into something as formidable and dangerous if it had been left unchecked. Data-Sora's Heartless was an exception in that as recorded it maintained its sense of self, being able to think and plan and grow as Data-Sora did in the Datascape. It still wasn't as noteworthy as a Nobody in terms of strategy and personality, but it still had an ambition of its own and a determination to meet that ambition. That's the only thing I think sets it apart from the Leachgrave, it maintained a sense of self and had plans it wished to meet, while the Leachgrave was just following the same instincts any other Heartless would follow, just acting more cannibalistic than most other Heartless would. If Sora's Heartless had the same opportunity, it would have been like the Leachgrave, just furthering the drives given to it by its instincts, not having a set ambition. Data-Sora's Heartless is an exception, just only in the sense that it had a sense of self and big plans that it strove to meet and that Heartless in the Datascape work differently than Heartless in the real world. I'm not saying that it's exactly like how it would work in the real world. Sorry if it came across that way.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Well either way it was put pretty vaguely. My only other frame of reference is Ansem, who was a Heartless AND a walking Heart, so it's only natural to assume that Sora was a pseudo-Heartless the whole time. And it's not like it's an incorrect term either way, pseudo is used to mean fake, not genuine, sham. With that in mind, it's not entirely wrong to call him that because at that point he is a NOT-Heartless but at the same time he isn't a complete being. He's physiologically similar to a Heartless, except his form isn't made of Darkness anymore and his mind is still present. This doesn't mean that I literally see him as nothing more than a Shadow that happens to have a more humany appearance, it just means that categorically speaking I see him as somewhere more in between Heartless/disembodied heart and full complete person.

 

And yeah, I find some issues with the Guardian theory as well, I even pointed out a flaw or two. I can still see why it's a popular theory though, as there are signs that could be interpreted as evidence towards that and it would make Terra's story a touch more tragic than it already is. Plus, if it was his Darkness and not him per-say, it would kind of make more sense, it's a powerful Darkness that can be easily manipulated by Xehanort, yet it's soul goal is towards protecting it's master. The sheer fact that it only exists to protect someone kind of gives off a Terra-y vibe. And if it is just his Darkness then it could still fit in the theory since it would both be able to work against Terra and his friends while still being an extension of himself. But that really depends on how far Nomura is willing to go with all of this, it could very well be that a few of us are just injecting a connection that isn't really there. It IS an interesting thing to consider though, that's all I'm saying.

 

And yeah, that's what I have been saying about my view on the Robed Man/Ansem as a Heart the whole time. The robe itself could be seen as the form, as well as a metaphor for the fact that a physical form is like an article of clothing that the heart may wear. It may wish to remain in it's familiar favorite garbs, but it has the potential to wear other "clothes". Xehanort certainly likes to adjust his "fashion" a lot, lol.

 

Maybe I am taking things a little too literally, but there is still something to what I'm saying. I just listed my reasoning behind the whole "pseudo naming thing", so I'm not going to dive deep into that again. I will say though that categorically speaking, Sora between KH1-KH2 as a "walking heart" seems to be more something in between a Heartless and a whole person, as he lacks a body but is not made up of pure Darkness anymore and has kept his thoughts, feelings, and personality.

 

 

 

 

 

 No there is a clear difference between Sora's status as a walking heart and Ansem as a heartless. Ansem was NEVER purified of his darkness and was the definition of a heartless which means hes a heart captured by the darkness. This is fact.

 

Sora was purified by Kairi and no longer a heartless which changes his status to a walking heart. The is a clear distinct difference between the two examples. so you cannot accurately interchange them