The problem with heart, body, and soul mechanics on Kingdom Hearts

[Ephemera 37]

Heart, Body, and Soul. A trinity that create a person. But does it? It seems like body and soul mechanics seems to lose traction to give more focus on the heart.

 

In Kingdom Hearts we were just introduced with just "the heart" and that the heart contains darkness, light, and memories (Halloween town). The main focus on Hearts more on light and darkness. Final Mix showed extra reports about what happens to the 

 

Kingdom Hearts: Chain of memories shows us a completely different side to hearts. Memories are taking an important role. We learn that memories can be the driving force of emotions. We also had "replicas", clones of other characters created in order 

 

Kingdom Hearts II we learn what happens to the body, and even adds in the "soul" aspect. When one turns into a heartless, the body and soul remain dormant together in the realm of darkness. The body and soul mechanics are fairly simple, the body in order to live must remain with the body. So in turn, death truly does exist in the realm of kingdom hearts, right? Well lets keep going...there are special nobodies that really bend the rules of not just how Nobodies work in general, but how . First is Namine, a character who is made up of nothing at all....she might as well be a "Projection" if anything else, but Roxas is made up Sora's body and soul but had no memories whatsoever. 

 

So there are two major questions: What is Namine made up of and what is Sora made up of? In several other forums, it has been accepted in the past that Namine was a projection of Kairi's body/soul, hence still being a "Nobody" but not being complete. However, Sora could perhaps have the exact same situation.

 

 

Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep shows bodies can be created by darkness. As you see Vanitas can physically create a body for himself (and soul?). THe mechanics seem to work different and it may be due to his heart made of pure darkness (which in essence should be considered a pureblood heartless??)

Here's the major problem: the mechanics of "soul and body" seem to be nothing more than terms to give excuse of "Nobodies". (beings that lack hearts). But because the Heart is designed differently now (anything can "grow" a heart if it gains memories). The Heart has been confirmed that will never get destroyed....and seems to not need a body and soul. 

 

 

This is something Nomura really likes to ignore the mechanics of . The body and soul. If heart has no rules. then body and soul have no rules? This is also another problem with how. 

 

Here's my theory: Since now Memories seem to play the role of creating hearts (despite everything else in the series not suggesting that, especially in birth by sleep), This leads me to believe that Memories are more than creating "hearts" but "Bodies and soul". 

 

Namine physical body is made up of memories (possibly the very few memories of Kairi), in which allowed her to have a body. Roxas is made up of remnant memories of Ventus (while Sora having his real body). This can also be why Namine herself is able to control and create memories of sora, because she is physically made up of memories herself.

 

In order to save the others, Xion's memories will most likely allow her to physicaly be without a body of a replica 

[Wyatt Tyson 66]

.This is something Nomura really likes to ignore the mechanics of . The body and soul. If heart has no rules. then body and soul have no rules? This is also another problem with how. 

 

Here's my theory: Since now Memories seem to play the role of creating hearts (despite everything else in the series not suggesting that, especially in birth by sleep), This leads me to believe that Memories are more than creating "hearts" but "Bodies and soul". 

 

Namine physical body is made up of memories (possibly the very few memories of Kairi), in which allowed her to have a body. Roxas is made up of remnant memories of Ventus (while Sora having his real body). This can also be why Namine herself is able to control and create memories of sora, because she is physically made up of memories herself.

 

 

........

........

 

........

 

....... Namine's existence is a mystery because she doesn't possess anything from Kairi. Not body, not heart and most certainly not memories as we've seen Kairi not having any problems with lost memories in the series. 

 

And with Roxas.................... Roxas is Sora's body. That's how he was even made in the first place. He has nothing from Ven except his heart which was in Sora's body which made up his appearance in the first place. 

 

For someone who accuses Nomura of :"ignoring mechanics", you love doing the same exact thing. Well more like ignoring everything.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Wyatt Tyson

[Ephemera 37]

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....... Namine's existence is a mystery she doesn't possess anything from Kairi. Not body, not heart and most certainly not memories as we've seen Kairi not having any problems with lost memories in the series. 

 

And with Roxas.................... Roxas is Sora's body. That's how he was even made in the first place. He has nothing from Ven except his heart which was in Sora's body which made up his appearance in the first place. 

 

For someone who accuses Nomura of :"ignoring mechanics", you love doing the same exact thing. Well more like ignoring everything.

I"m being polite. i request you do the same. Otherwise, there is a secondary option.....You have your opinion i have mine. I am in no way trying to belittle yours, so i "respectfully" request that you don't belittle mine.

 

Now its only a theory.....so its not that its ignoring what was ssaid but new information being done. Just like "Merging hearts" of original and nobody is a theory one is willing to accept despite never seeing it. The explanation of how Namine exist is based on "Memories". If you think about it, it sort of makes sense since Namine was born in "Castle Oblivion"

Edited August 12, 2015 by Ephemera

[Wyatt Tyson 66]

I"m being polite. i request you do the same. Otherwise, there is a secondary option.....You have your opinion i have mine. I am in no way trying to belittle yours, so i "respectfully" request that you don't belittle mine.

 

Now its only a theory.....so its not that its ignoring what was ssaid but new information being done. Just like "Merging hearts" of original and nobody is a theory one is willing to accept despite never seeing it. The explanation of how Namine exist is based on "Memories". If you think about it, it sort of makes sense since Namine was born in "Castle Oblivion"

 

This guy would like a word with you. Get it memorized.

 

Edited August 12, 2015 by Wyatt Tyson

[Kaweebo 3,617]

Heart, Body, and Soul. A trinity that create a person. But does it? It seems like body and soul mechanics seems to lose traction to give more focus on the heart.

Well, this is a series called Kingdom Hearts, so...

 

 

Here's the major problem: the mechanics of "soul and body" seem to be nothing more than terms to give excuse of "Nobodies". (beings that lack hearts). But because the Heart is designed differently now (anything can "grow" a heart if it gains memories).

 

What's the problem with that? It's writing convenience used in a pretty clever way, I think. 

 

The Heart has been confirmed that will never get destroyed....and seems to not need a body and soul. 

When was that confirmed? Heartless (Purebloods, anyway) are beings made up of the darkness from destroyed hearts. Emblem Heartless can seize the heart of a person undamaged, but that's pretty much it. There is nothing to indicate that a heart cannot be destroyed, the numerous amounts of Purebloods prove that. 

 

Here's my theory: Since now Memories seem to play the role of creating hearts (despite everything else in the series not suggesting that, especially in birth by sleep), This leads me to believe that Memories are more than creating "hearts" but "Bodies and soul". 

I think that's fairly accurate itself, but I'm not sure how any of this is really a 'problem'. The revelation of all of these things (and the hinting towards this theory) all flow pretty naturally in my opinion. I'm not seeing any gross contradictions. 

[Ephemera 37]

This guy would like a word with you. Get it memorized.

 

Never officially confirmed hearts were merged, in fact there is no confirmed answer for Ael. only theories. Merging of hearts is a theory that is widely accepted, but NOT confirmed. 

 

But if you have something against the theory of body/soul also can be made up of memories, then i'm happy to hear your counter argument. But if you have one.  if you don't. Then please make it clear you don't.

[awesomeinmyworld 268]

Yeah, Nomura has definitely ignored some interesting aspects of the trifecta of a person in the KH universe. The soul is touched upon only in the Secret Ansem reports, so a lot of people forget that death IS possible in the universe. 

As for your theory it's definitely interesting. Memories making up the heart, body and soul can be backed up by what Namine said in CoM: "Memories are connected in a chain that makes up each of us." But I'm not so sure memories are the sole reason for a heart, body and soul. I see them more as interdependent. The heart shapes the body and contains the memories of person. And the body contains the soul, which is probably affected by the memories within the heart and shapes the personality. Or maybe it's just the memory and heart that do that, not too sure. It's fun to think about.

 

Getting back to Namine and Roxas, there's a few details that you've missed. First, when Kairi brought Sora's heart back from the darkness, she did NOT bring back his body. From that point until the end of Roxas' story in KH2, Sora was a walking heart, he only got his body back when Roxas returned it b/c Roxas was the body Sora left behind. However, because Ventus' heart was in the body Sora left behind, Sora's Nobody took on Ventus' form b/c that's the only heart in Sora's body at that time, and the heart shapes the vessel. It's most likely that Kairi's memories and feeling for Sora, and her PoH powers, gave Sora's heart a physical form without an actual body. As for Namine, the secret Ansem reports state that she was created from Kairi's heart and Sora's body and soul. Meaning Namine obtained a physical body and a soul from Sora, but her body was shaped by Kairi's heart. Her power over memories stems from her connection with Sora and being a Nobody of a PoH.

[Ephemera 37]

 

What's the problem with that? It's writing convenience used in a pretty clever way, I think. 

Writing convenience yes. clever? the fact that body and soul are hardly adressed, it becomes an issue as we see characters like Roxas, Namine, and Sora (post-heartless form) come into the mix.

 

When was that confirmed? Heartless (Purebloods, anyway) are beings made up of the darkness from destroyed hearts. Emblem Heartless can seize the heart of a person undamaged, but that's pretty much it. There is nothing to indicate that a heart cannot be destroyed, the numerous amounts of Purebloods prove that. 

I remember it somewhere around the time of 358/2 days. But Nomura confirmed hearts never really die. But the bigger question i have "when were the mechanics of purebloods" work. from what i do remember, pureblood and emblem aren't that different according to nomura. But that can't be the case since Sora was still a heart. 

I think that's fairly accurate itself, but I'm not sure how any of this is really a 'problem'. The revelation of all of these things (and the hinting towards this theory) all flow pretty naturally in my opinion. I'm not seeing any gross contradictions. 

The problem is most ignoring how bodies and souls are a valid aspect. its now that if you have memories, you have it all. previosuly established aspects sucha s those and given a form of mechancis seems to have purpose, and now it doesn't seem to.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Ephemera

[Kaweebo 3,617]

Writing convenience yes. clever? the fact that body and soul are hardly adressed, it becomes an issue as we see characters like Roxas, Namine, and Sora (post-heartless form) come into the mix.

 

I remember it somewhere around the time of 358/2 days. But Nomura confirmed hearts never really die. But the bigger question i have "when were the mechanics of purebloods" work. from what i do remember, pureblood and emblem aren't that different according to nomura. But that can't be the case since Sora was still a heart. 

 

The problem is most ignoring how bodies and souls are a valid aspect. its now that if you have memories, you have it all. previosuly established aspects sucha s those and given a form of mechancis seems to have purpose, and now it doesn't seem to.

I still wouldn't say it's an issue or a problem. It's certainly an unexplained phenomenon but not one we absolutely need an answer to. Some things Nomura keeps secret on purpose to fuel speculation. The most likely answer the question of what exactly they are is this theory, one which I've thought myself.

 

As far as Sora goes, I'm pretty certain that he falls under something of the same umbrella as Xehanort did. In the Secret Ansem's Reports, Ansem the Wise ponders if Xehanort was able to continue on as a conscious heart because he willingly discarded his body, which I'd say is probably accurate. But he also had Master Xehanort's Keyblade (as shown in DDD) and his heart was much more prepared against the darkness than Sora's. Sora, meanwhile, used the Keyblade of People's Hearts which more than likely shattered his own (resulting in a Pureblood) while freeing Kairi's. (and Ventus's) However, because Sora gave up his heart willingly just as Ansem did, he was able to (temporarily) move about as a semi-sentient Shadow, long enough to make it to Kairi who both restored his heart and gave him physical form through her love and memory of him. I admit that a lot of that is a theory as well, but the whole idea works in principle. 

 

But the idea of a heart being able to be destroyed is definitely canon. You can see that everytime you kill a Pureblood, the darkness only dissipates whereas Emblems release their captive hearts.

 

While I can see where you're going with that (and, tbh, I think the series does a bad job of portraying this) the series ultimately does say that while Sora and Namine can continue existing in physical forms via projection-memories, they ultimately do have to either return to their original person in Namine's case, or get back his body in Sora's, regardless of the fact that he seems to be getting along just fine. I wouldn't excuse the body and soul as being completely unimportant aspects, but the idea that they are merely there to supplement the heart focus is true and where the focus should be. The heart is the most enigmatic of the parts that make up a person and it's the one that the series is based around.

 

They really should have introduced a reason why existing in a 'projection' body would be bad though,  but they never really do, they just say that Nobodies MUST return to their original person because reasons. 

Edited August 12, 2015 by Kaweebo

[Ephemera 37]

and suddenly, i find the very audience that knows whats going on.

 

although

 

I still wouldn't say it's an issue or a problem. It's certainly an unexplained phenomenon but not one we absolutely need an answer to. Some things Nomura keeps secret on purpose to fuel speculation. The most likely answer the question of what exactly they are is this theory, one which I've thought myself.

Considering how technical the series has been so far about it. Trying to be vague and technical at the same doesn't work.

 

As far as Sora goes, I'm pretty certain that he falls under something of the same umbrella as Xehanort did. In the Secret Ansem's Reports, Ansem the Wise ponders if Xehanort was able to continue on as a conscious heart because he willingly discarded his body, which I'd say is probably accurate. But he also had Master Xehanort's Keyblade (as shown in DDD) and his heart was much more prepared against the darkness than Sora's. Sora, meanwhile, used the Keyblade of People's Hearts which more than likely shattered his own (resulting in a Pureblood) while freeing Kairi's. (and Ventus's) However, because Sora gave up his heart willingly just as Ansem did, he was able to (temporarily) move about as a semi-sentient Shadow, long enough to make it to Kairi who both restored his heart and gave him physical form through her love and memory of him. I admit that a lot of that is a theory as well, but the whole idea works in principle. 

Yes, it is mostly theory. I dont really agree with it, but i respect that it is a theory and it can be possible. 

 

But the idea of a heart being able to be destroyed is definitely canon. You can see that everytime you kill a Pureblood, the darkness only dissipates whereas Emblems release their captive hearts.

Thats more of an observation, but since Nomura confirmed they both work the same way only one releases a heart and the other doesn't. its a little difficult to understand. 

 

While I can see where you're going with that (and, tbh, I think the series does a bad job of portraying this) the series ultimately does say that while Sora and Namine can continue existing in physical forms via projection-memories, they ultimately do have to either return to their original person in Namine's case, or get back his body in Sora's, regardless of the fact that he seems to be getting along just fine. I wouldn't excuse the body and soul as being completely unimportant aspects, but the idea that they are merely there to supplement the heart focus is true and where the focus should be. The heart is the most enigmatic of the parts that make up a person and it's the one that the series is based around.

But since we have no answer for body and soul completely, it becomes an issue. The heart received almost the same treatment. But still with Nobodies to compliment hearts, now growing hearts suggest far more.

They really should have introduced a reason why existing in a 'projection' body would be bad though,  but they never really do, they just say that Nobodies MUST return to their original person because reasons. 

[Kaweebo 3,617]

Considering how technical the series has been so far about it. Trying to be vague and technical at the same doesn't work.

That's Kingdom Hearts.

 

 

Thats more of an observation, but since Nomura confirmed they both work the same way only one releases a heart and the other doesn't. its a little difficult to understand. 

Purebloods are literal 'broken' hearts whose darkness has escaped and taken form, that much is undeniable. Emblems are the same process only done artificially through controlled experiments. However, Emblems are also artificial in the sense that they have been given the ability to capture hearts and not just destroy them. There's a sense that the organic 'animal' Purebloods only destroy and the more technical, manufactured Emblems capture the heart specimen since that is what their 'programming' commands them to do. They work the same in that their basic instinct is to attack those with hearts but what they do with it is different...and thus, one releases hearts and the other merely disappears.

 

The way to understanding something is to observe it and the fact that they intentionally have those two types of Heartless die that way only reinforces the hypothesis.

 

 

But since we have no answer for body and soul completely, it becomes an issue. The heart received almost the same treatment. But still with Nobodies to compliment hearts, now growing hearts suggest far more.

That is something of an issue, I guess. Not an urgent one, but definitely a gap in the story. I don't have a real answer for it, the series took a massive U-turn with Dream Drop Distance.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Kaweebo

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

Heart, Body, and Soul. A trinity that create a person. But does it? It seems like body and soul mechanics seems to lose traction to give more focus on the heart.

 

In Kingdom Hearts we were just introduced with just "the heart" and that the heart contains darkness, light, and memories (Halloween town). The main focus on Hearts more on light and darkness. Final Mix showed extra reports about what happens to the 

 

Kingdom Hearts: Chain of memories shows us a completely different side to hearts. Memories are taking an important role. We learn that memories can be the driving force of emotions. We also had "replicas", clones of other characters created in order 

 

Kingdom Hearts II we learn what happens to the body, and even adds in the "soul" aspect. When one turns into a heartless, the body and soul remain dormant together in the realm of darkness. The body and soul mechanics are fairly simple, the body in order to live must remain with the body. So in turn, death truly does exist in the realm of kingdom hearts, right? Well lets keep going...there are special nobodies that really bend the rules of not just how Nobodies work in general, but how . First is Namine, a character who is made up of nothing at all....she might as well be a "Projection" if anything else, but Roxas is made up Sora's body and soul but had no memories whatsoever. 

 

So there are two major questions: What is Namine made up of and what is Sora made up of? In several other forums, it has been accepted in the past that Namine was a projection of Kairi's body/soul, hence still being a "Nobody" but not being complete. However, Sora could perhaps have the exact same situation.

 

 

Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep shows bodies can be created by darkness. As you see Vanitas can physically create a body for himself (and soul?). THe mechanics seem to work different and it may be due to his heart made of pure darkness (which in essence should be considered a pureblood heartless??)

Here's the major problem: the mechanics of "soul and body" seem to be nothing more than terms to give excuse of "Nobodies". (beings that lack hearts). But because the Heart is designed differently now (anything can "grow" a heart if it gains memories). The Heart has been confirmed that will never get destroyed....and seems to not need a body and soul. 

 

 

This is something Nomura really likes to ignore the mechanics of . The body and soul. If heart has no rules. then body and soul have no rules? This is also another problem with how. 

 

Here's my theory: Since now Memories seem to play the role of creating hearts (despite everything else in the series not suggesting that, especially in birth by sleep), This leads me to believe that Memories are more than creating "hearts" but "Bodies and soul". 

 

Namine physical body is made up of memories (possibly the very few memories of Kairi), in which allowed her to have a body. Roxas is made up of remnant memories of Ventus (while Sora having his real body). This can also be why Namine herself is able to control and create memories of sora, because she is physically made up of memories herself.

 

In order to save the others, Xion's memories will most likely allow her to physicaly be without a body of a replica 

 

 

I"m being polite. i request you do the same. Otherwise, there is a secondary option.....You have your opinion i have mine. I am in no way trying to belittle yours, so i "respectfully" request that you don't belittle mine.

 

Now its only a theory.....so its not that its ignoring what was ssaid but new information being done. Just like "Merging hearts" of original and nobody is a theory one is willing to accept despite never seeing it. The explanation of how Namine exist is based on "Memories". If you think about it, it sort of makes sense since Namine was born in "Castle Oblivion"

 

 

Never officially confirmed hearts were merged, in fact there is no confirmed answer for Ael. only theories. Merging of hearts is a theory that is widely accepted, but NOT confirmed. 

 

But if you have something against the theory of body/soul also can be made up of memories, then i'm happy to hear your counter argument. But if you have one.  if you don't. Then please make it clear you don't.

 

 

 

 

What's the problem with that? It's writing convenience used in a pretty clever way, I think. 

Writing convenience yes. clever? the fact that body and soul are hardly adressed, it becomes an issue as we see characters like Roxas, Namine, and Sora (post-heartless form) come into the mix.

 

When was that confirmed? Heartless (Purebloods, anyway) are beings made up of the darkness from destroyed hearts. Emblem Heartless can seize the heart of a person undamaged, but that's pretty much it. There is nothing to indicate that a heart cannot be destroyed, the numerous amounts of Purebloods prove that. 

I remember it somewhere around the time of 358/2 days. But Nomura confirmed hearts never really die. But the bigger question i have "when were the mechanics of purebloods" work. from what i do remember, pureblood and emblem aren't that different according to nomura. But that can't be the case since Sora was still a heart. 

I think that's fairly accurate itself, but I'm not sure how any of this is really a 'problem'. The revelation of all of these things (and the hinting towards this theory) all flow pretty naturally in my opinion. I'm not seeing any gross contradictions. 

The problem is most ignoring how bodies and souls are a valid aspect. its now that if you have memories, you have it all. previosuly established aspects sucha s those and given a form of mechancis seems to have purpose, and now it doesn't seem to.

 

 

 

and suddenly, i find the very audience that knows whats going on.

 

although

 

BEWARE, IT GET'S REALLY LONG FROM THIS POINT ON. SORRY FOR THE LENGTH.

 

...Ok, first off, I'm sorry if this might sound rude, I'm trying to be as polite as I can here, but it looks like your spelling and grammar might need a bit of work. There are several sentences that don't have proper grammar and some of the words you use either don't fit what you might be trying to say or they are spelled wrong in awkward ways. On top of that, several paragraphs you have, particularly the first few, tend to just sort of cut off as if you forgot to finish them. It's hard for me to understand what your whole point is with each section when you don't even finish your thoughts. I'd like to know, is English your first language or a second language for you? Again, I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE FUN OF OR BELITTLE YOU HERE, I'm trying to understand where you're coming from so I can figure out why it's so hard to understand what your point is. Sorry if I'm coming off as a bit of a grammar nazi right now, it's just that proper or common grammar can be really important on faceless mediums like the Internet, especially when we can't see or hear you, so understanding what you're saying and writing is very important, especially when expressing your opinion.

 

Second, as for your theory itself...um, yeah, it's not as complicated or unexplained as you might think. Basically, going off of what we've seen in the series and what Nomura has actually said in interviews (and someone like Flaming Lea and anybody else who might notice any errors can correct me here where needed), the human body (not only humans, but we're sticking with the most reoccurring species in this series) for all intents and purposes works exactly the same as what we're familiar with, biologically speaking. The main difference however is with the Heart. Obviously, the Heart is made to be the most important component of human beings in the series, as it seems to act more than just a blood-pumping organ, it seems to act as the main source of someone's personality, memories, and apparently proof and definition of "existence". It seems to work a bit more like the romantic depiction of the heart, being a source of emotions, love, and being and is also made up of the Light and Darkness within a person, whereas they don't really touch upon how it acts as an organ at all (I'm personally starting to wonder if Nobodies still retain some kind of "blood pumping organ" that still allows them to breathe while they don't have a "metaphorical" or emotional/personality Heart that acts as their "existence license"....or maybe it's magic and they don't have to explain anything, I don't know). But biological mystery aside the Heart seems to be what defines a person's existence. Like I said before the Heart seems to play a more important role with memories rather than the brain or mind. Yet despite this, when a Nobody is created, being the body and SOUL that are left behind, they seem to keep the memories they had before they were turned into Nobodies. So how can you keep memories without a heart when the heart seems to be what is used recall memories? Well, perhaps it's more like the heart is what is used to store the most precious memories while the mind just remembers everything. So this can be why someone like Saix can remember being human and being friends with Lea and that it was important to him, but without a heart he doesn't remember what it means to empathize, what it means to be a friend, or why his friendship with Lea was so important to begin with. If that's the case, clearly the Nobody carries the mind with their body, while their soul is what is keeping them alive. This is the difference with "natural death" that we're familiar with. While natural death seems to suggest that the soul leaves the body (or the body decays...or takes the soul with it...or both-Ok, so THAT could use more explaining as well...death that we're used too! Let's just go with that!), the other forms of "death" that we've seen introduced in KH seems to revolve around the heart leaving the body. If the heart is taken out by a Heartless or removed by a Keyblade wielder or someone simply gives into the darkness in their heart, the heart turns into a Heartless (or the person turns into a Heartless if the Heartless that attacked him consumes the heart...? Ugh, maybe you actually have a point about the intricacies of this being a little vague). The Heartless is made out of Darkness as the body is left behind. If the person had a strong will (the will also being an important aspect of the heart itself) the body and soul left behind will become a being of it's own, becoming a Nobody. Since the idea is that a heart is what essentially makes up a person, the Nobody takes on a more empty rag-doll or hollow clothing appearance, sort of acting as a metaphor for how there used to be a person in these clothes, the "person" being the heart itself, but now there isn't anyone there. That perceived "lack of existence" is what makes Nobodies categorically "nonexistent" or "in-between beings", as while they are clearly still there they don't technically have what is supposed to define them as a person.

 

Now when it comes to the Birth by Sleep stuff you were talking about, the only new thing covered in that was that Light and Darkness (or just pieces of the heart altogether, maybe they just come in light and dark parts...maybe...) can be extracted from the heart and can be used to create a new being. The Darkness from Ven's heart was extracted to create Vanitas, a being of "pure Darkness". But does that necessarily make him a Heartless? Well, no, not necessarily. Being a being of pure Darkness doesn't make you a Heartless, Pureblood or Artificial. Remember that someone becomes a Heartless (vaguely) by being consumed by the Darkness in their heart entirely or by having their Heart be forcefully taken from them. Now while Ven did have part of his heart taken from him, it was still part of his heart, not all of it. Only the dark part of his heart was taken from him, and that half is what formed Vanitas. Ven was still left with the rest of his heart which contained his light. Now while I'm clearly still a bit fuzzy on where the Heartless comes from exactly (does the person turn into the Heartless or does the heart itself turn into the Heartless? Still a little confused now), I do understand that at the very least the entire heart has to be absent from the person for the traditional Heartless and Nobody rules to apply. Ventus' heart was split into two and one half was removed from him. While he was "incomplete", he was not a Nobody, as he still had more heart than any Nobody had (before any would be given the chance to grow one on their own). And Vanitas, despite being a being of pure Darkness, he isn't a Heartless either. His heart wasn't corrupted or consumed by Darkness, his heart is what it always was, the dark half of Ven's complete heart, given a physical form. The only thing that happened to him was that he was split away from his light half, he's just less complete than he used to be, like Ventus. It's an entirely different concept of "splitting someone in two" than what we have become familiar with in KH and KH2, it is taken in a more literal sense, as the heart, the very thing that makes someone a person, is the thing that is split up, not the entire being. Quite literally, you are split into your light half and your dark half, it's closer to the imagery of Yin and Yang. This also goes along with the fact that the Heartless and Nobody processes are both a type of afterlife, whereas the split of Ven and Vanitas is the same life but split into two different paths.

 

As for Nobodies, it's been made pretty clear at this point that everything they are made out of is purely the body and soul left behind. The mechanics of the body, as I have shown, yes are not that explained up front but it is heavily hinted that they act the same way as ours do, only the heart is a more supernatural part of a person than we are familiar with in reality. The soul is also self-explanatory, it is the essence that gives us life, or our life-force. In traditional mythology when a person dies the soul leaves the body, with the body decaying away with no life force to sustain it and the soul becoming a ghost. If we're going to factor Kingdom Hearts logic into this, it's likely that the ghost being only the soul wouldn't carry too much of the person's personality as the heart would, only a shadow of it, thus it is literally a "ghost of it's former self". At least, that's how I would theorize it. Point is that I believe in terms of a narrative perspective Nomura expects the concepts of bodies and souls to be close to that of traditional superstitious beliefs, so the average gamer wouldn't really question what happens to the soul and body if they are eliminated, since it's kind of goes without saying. He has also explained in interviews that normal death is something that exists in the universe of Kingdom Hearts, but so far in the series no one has actually fully or completely "died", or stopped living in the traditional "normal" sense, as far as main characters go anyway.

 

To put it simply, the body is our vessel, the soul is our life force, and the heart is everything we are as a person.

 

Now I'm not sure what you mean by "merging hearts" and that being a theory that was never confirmed. It could just be due to me being a doofus and not understanding what you're saying again (once again, my apologies), but it also seems that you aren't applying enough context to that statement. Do you mean that "it was never confirmed that Sora and Ven's hearts merged"? Because if so...then you're wrong, it was confirmed. Well, depending on what you mean by "merged". If you mean their hearts became one heart instead of two, then no their hearts didn't do that. But Ven's heart does rest within Sora's heart...kind of like a nesting doll I guess. Rather than having a combined heart, Sora has two hearts within him, his own and Ventus'. So they aren't "as one" as in they are one heart, but they are "as one" in the sense that their hearts are in the same body. Except for when Roxas was around, then it's been suggested that Ven's heart may have actually been inside of Roxas' body, as Roxas is Sora's Nobody, meaning that he IS Sora's literal body, but his appearance was based off of Ventus because Ven's heart still remained inside him.

 

And now to get to the Sora as a Heartless thing. First off, let's start with before it happened. Up to that point in his life, Sora had Ven's heart within his body along with his own heart. Then when the islands were destroyed Kairi's heart went into Sora's body because she likely got attacked by a Heartless amidst the chaos. Now as Kairi is a Princess of Heart, she has no natural Darkness within her, her heart is made of pure Light, similar to how Ven's heart is made of pure Light when Vanitas was split from him forcefully, the only difference being that Kairi was never born with any Darkness in her heart like everyone else. Now in order for any Heartless to be made there must be at least some Darkness in the person's heart, because that's where all Heartless are born from. However, because of Kairi having no Darkness in her heart, instead of turning into a Heartless and leaving her body behind she can't turn into a Heartless and as a result her body seems to be locked in a comatose state. It's perplexing as it is a bit similar to how Ven acted when he was initially split up, only he still had some heart left in him. But he still had a lot of himself striped away and he was only able to survive because Sora's heart had touched Ven's upon Sora's birth (spiritually speaking), lending him strength and light to fill up the empty space while Vanitas grew stronger and more complete as a result as well. Kairi has no heart whatsoever at this point, but she still had an important part of her taken away from her, and with no Darkness to transform her and cast her body behind, her body and soul are sort of left in a limbo state. This heavily relies on the idea that a Nobody is only formed when the removed heart becomes a Heartless, rather than just being removed and completely being absolutely fine. If you've ever seen Once Upon A Time, it might work a bit like that. So with her heart not turning into a Heartless her body and soul are not reacting in any way to turn into a Nobody. So Kairi is literally left as an empty husk clinging to life, not even being given the new life she could have as a Nobody. Now, once Sora has used the unnamed Keyblade of People's Hearts on himself, he has released two hearts from within his body, his own and Kairi's. Kairi's heart returns to Kairi's body, restoring her to a fully conscious and healthy state, her body never being transformed into a Nobody. However, once Kairi's heart left Sora's body, Namine has been confirmed by Nomura to have awakened in Castle Oblivion, presumably just being created from the event. This is because she exists through Sora's body, yet she has a being of her own while Sora's body becomes Roxas. This could be due to the fact that as Kairi is a Princess her heart and body may have strange enough properties, and then consider the fact that Sora housed at one point THREE HEARTS within his body, the strange and unique circumstances may have caused something unique to happen that Namine could exist as her own body brought into existence by Sora's body but based on Kairi's heart. Perhaps Ven's heart  may have even had some influence as Namine does have blonde hair and the ability to hold power over Sora's memories specifically. It's likely that her powers came from Ven's close connection to Sora, and that her abilities to affect the memories of those connected to Sora simply stem from the fact that Sora shares good bonds with so many people, creating a "chain" for Namine to manipulate in tandem to Sora's memory "chain". Now then, back to Sora. After Kairi's heart has been restored to her body, Sora's heart then leaves his own body, which turns him into a Heartless. Now the reason he is a Pureblood Heartless is likely due to the fact that his heart wasn't stolen by an Artificial Heartless, so he turned into a Pureblood, and since he had so little Darkness in his heart to begin with naturally, he took the form of a lowly Shadow. Now during this time Roxas had come into being in Twilight Town. Roxas, like "regular" Nobodies is Sora's body and soul, but his appearance resembles that of Ven rather than Sora. That is because, as hinted by Nomura, Ventus' heart remained in Sora's body after Sora became a Heartless. This could suggest that no matter what heart is remaining in the body, so long as the original heart of the person is lost to Darkness or the Heartless, the body will turn into a Nobody. So as it is Sora's body, it becomes a Nobody as soon as Sora's heart has left. But since Ventus' heart curiously stayed behind without Sora's heart, Sora's Nobody, Roxas, took on the appearance of Ventus. This gives Roxas an interesting dual nature in that his body is that of Sora's but he has a heart inside him that belongs to Ventus. Ideally speaking if Sora hadn't had been restored Roxas probably would have regained his memories as Sora, but once Sora was restored by Kairi, Roxas never got to remember, or at least not as instantly as everyone else. Back to Sora, Kairi had managed to save Sora by using the special connection between them and her strange abilities as a Princess of Heart to restore Sora to a human form. But since Roxas still exists as his own being, that means that Sora wasn't really reunited with his TRUE body. Nomura confirmed that this means that Sora, between his first adventure in Hollow Bastion and his waking up in KH2, Sora had been walking around as a sort of "pseudo Heartless". While Kairi had managed to restore Sora's sense of self (which he still seemed to have quite a bit of even as a Shadow), his personality, and his human form, it is likely that really the whole time Sora can still be categorically considered a "Heartless" of sorts, only in the sense that his true body is still it's own being and he hasn't been recompleted. That being said, if nothing else he still has his heart, which mean to suggest that his heart indeed turned into a Heartless and his Heartless form was transformed by Kairi into a human form and his personality and sense of self restored along with it. But this would also mean that he is without Ven's heart now. Back with Roxas, due to Sora's short time as a Heartless (or at least in the form of one) Roxas didn't have his memories as Sora restored. However, being Sora's body with Ventus' heart within him, as well as being his own individual going through his own experiences, Roxas was able to adopt his own personality independent of his origins. He still shared a great deal of traits from Sora and Ventus as far as cheerfulness, curiosity, and value of friendships were concerned, but he still became his own person based on what he naturally felt from those few traits and what he learned from his time in the Organization. Meanwhile Xion has been made as the first of many potential Replicas to copy the form and abilities of Roxas and by extension Sora, by stealing his memories through Roxas, unconsciously. Xion's appearance is based on Sora's strongest memories which happen to be the ones that found their way into her, his memories of Kairi. The hair is parted in almost a mirror fashion, and many have speculated that her black hair color might stem from Vanitas. When Roxas's tragic story had to come to the point where he had to destroy Xion, she faded away into Roxas, giving him access to the power Sora had lying dormant within him to wield two Keyblades (this has been said by Nomura to be because he is Sora's Nobody and Sora has this ability hidden away in him because he has two hearts in his body, and the logic is one Keyblade per heart. However it might also be possible that considering the new news we learned in DDD that Nobodies can grow "hearts" of their own over time, it might be possible that by that point in time Roxas was forming a heart of his own. But who knows?), as well as trapping the memories she "stole" within Roxas. After Roxas had been subdued by Riku and all of Sora's memory had been restored, Roxas finally met face to face with Sora and faded into Sora. As Sora awoke he was finally in his own body again, even if he wasn't aware that he was ever separated from it at the time (curiously his "pseudo body" seemed to age at the same rate as Roxas did). At this point all parts of Sora that had been together prior to becoming a Heartless are reunited (with the exception of Kairi's heart, still safely within Kairi's body), his heart (Sora), his body (Roxas), and Ventus' heart are all together again. Now Sora is 100% legit human, with the only side effects being that he feels what Roxas feels, as they are the same person, or at least the same body. In the later point of the game where Roxas manifests in front of Sora and fights him, only Sora can see him. This is because after being shaken by Axel's demise Roxas becomes a more active force inside Sora and in a fit of rage and emotion confronts Sora from the inside. As a result, only Sora can see Roxas when he appears before him, as he isn't "really" there, at least as far as Donald and Goofy are concerned (it's also likely that the Samurai Nobodies are obeying Roxas's orders through Sora at that time as Roxas is conscious enough to command them at that moment). From that point on is when they have their battle within Sora's Station of Awakening, essentially fighting within the very heart they share. While the whole battle could kind of be considered metaphorical, symbolic, or existential, it should be noted that Goofy does say that Sora actually physically disappeared while he and Donald were preoccupied with the Nobodies, so maybe it's possible that Sora was transported there as if it were another dimension...but that's a debate for another day. After defeating Roxas within himself, Roxas becomes an unconscious, or at least partly conscious, force within Sora again, which also unlocks Sora's full potential (Final Form). After learning of Roxas and defeating Xemnas Sora and Kairi are able to confront their Nobody counterparts and fuse with them. Oh right, during the whole time where Kairi is being rescued by Namine, Namine still has her own physical form independent of Kairi's existence. Once she and Kairi take hands and escape it is implied that Namine became one with Kairi. So by then it's at the point where only Sora, Riku, and Kairi can see the two Nobodies as they become one with their original selves once again.

 

That whole thing was rather lengthy but the point is that the nature revolving around Sora, Kairi, Ventus, Xion, Vanitas, and Namine is pretty unusual, extraordinary, and complicated. I really hope that this helps out with any confusion you might have. And if not, then, well...at least I'm confused too. That has to count for something, right?

 

Once again, sorry for the long length.

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

It was stated in the Secret Ansem Reports that, in Namine's case, the body and soul needed to exist as a Nobody belonged to Sora. The reason she is considered Kairi's Nobody and not Sora's is because she is the result of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body. As for Roxas, he is a traditional Nobody but lacking Sora's memories because his time as a Heartless was so short, and with the addition of Ven's heart because at the time of Roxas' creation it was still too weak to return to where it belongs, causing it to remain with Sora's body and make the resulting Nobody take on Ven's appearance because the Heart shapes the vessel so, in the absence of a heart of his own, the heart within the newborn Nobody took priority over the body it was created from when it came to appearance.

 

It makes sense that Body and Soul have gone largely ignored because it's fairly obvious that the body is just a container for the heart and the soul is just a battery for the body, while the heart is everything that makes a person who they are.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Isamu_Kuno

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

Heart, Body, and Soul. A trinity that create a person. But does it? It seems like body and soul mechanics seems to lose traction to give more focus on the heart.

It's called Kingdom Hearts for a reason. The body and soul have never been a primary focus point. The heart has always been the foremost theme of the series. Just because the body and soul aren't at huge focal point of the series doesn't rid the fact that they still are part of the makeup of a person.

Kingdom Hearts II we learn what happens to the body, and even adds in the "soul" aspect. When one turns into a heartless, the body and soul remain dormant together in the realm of darkness. The body and soul mechanics are fairly simple, the body in order to live must remain with the body. So in turn, death truly does exist in the realm of kingdom hearts, right? Well lets keep going...there are special nobodies that really bend the rules of not just how Nobodies work in general, but how . First is Namine, a character who is made up of nothing at all....she might as well be a "Projection" if anything else, but Roxas is made up Sora's body and soul but had no memories whatsoever.  So there are two major questions: What is Namine made up of and what is Sora made up of? In several other forums, it has been accepted in the past that Namine was a projection of Kairi's body/soul, hence still being a "Nobody" but not being complete. However, Sora could perhaps have the exact same situation.

Namine is an anomaly even amongst special Nobodies. She truly is not supposed to exist as under normal circumstances she could have never been created. However using Sora's body and soul as an intermediary she was able to form her own pseudo existence. So even though she has no real body the base of her existence came from Sora. Sora actually has a body and soul in KH and CoM he simply used a shell like vessel created by Kairi's PoH abilities. In short Sora was a walking heart which is completely different from Namine 's situation. Also Roxas was born with no memories because Sora's time as a Heartless was extremely short. He had no access to those memories because Sora had them.

Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep shows bodies can be created by darkness. As you see Vanitas can physically create a body for himself (and soul?). THe mechanics seem to work different and it may be due to his heart made of pure darkness (which in essence should be considered a pureblood heartless??)

This point is contradictory it was the dark part of Ven's heart that created Vanitas.This scenario has less to do with the body and more to do with the heart. Xehanort literally split Ventus in two which allowed Vanitas to have a physical existence. Also Vanitas is completely different from a Heartless, whether Pureblood or Emblem. The Heartless are physical manifestions that occur when darkness captures and takes control of a person's heart. They are not self aware and function on pure instinct the exception are those who willingly turned Heartless. Vanitas was a heart of pure darkness and had control of his heart.

Here's the major problem: the mechanics of "soul and body" seem to be nothing more than terms to give excuse of "Nobodies". (beings that lack hearts). But because the Heart is designed differently now (anything can "grow" a heart if it gains memories). The Heart has been confirmed that will never get destroyed....and seems to not need a body and soul. 

The heart cannot exist on it's own it needs a vessel otherwise it captured by the Heartless or return to Kingdom Hearts. This is why Ven's heart stayed in Sora's body after Sora was split into a Heartless and Nobody and why Kairi's heart sought refuge inside Sora's heart.

 Here's my theory: Since now Memories seem to play the role of creating hearts (despite everything else in the series not suggesting that, especially in birth by sleep), This leads me to believe that Memories are more than creating "hearts" but "Bodies and soul".  Namine physical body is made up of memories (possibly the very few memories of Kairi), in which allowed her to have a body. Roxas is made up of remnant memories of Ventus (while Sora having his real body). This can also be why Namine herself is able to control and create memories of sora, because she is physically made up of memories herself. In order to save the others, Xion's memories will most likely allow her to physicaly be without a body of a replica

Memories being a part of a hearts makeup has been something that has been touched upon since Chain of Memories it's not some foreign concept that was dropped out of the sky after DDD. I don't understand why insist on acting like that wasn't an already established plot point. Also how can a body be made of memories since it's long been established that memories are part of the heart. Again Namine was produced by using Sora's body and soul as an intermediary to form her own existence. It has nothing to do with memories and more to do with her being an anomaly. Namine doesn't even have a physical body it's more of a pseudo shell of an existence. Her link to Sora is why she was able to manipulate his memories.

[Joker 1,560]

and people say KH is non complex kids game

[Ephemera 37]

It's called Kingdom Hearts for a reason. The body and soul have never been a primary focus point. The heart has always been the foremost theme of the series. Just because the body and soul aren't at huge focal point of the series doesn't rid the fact that they still are part of the makeup of a person.

The problem is that body+soul is what makes the trinity of a being. the series could've completely ignored it, but the fact is that body+soul is the very thing that allows them to be. For example, Lingering Will clearly doesn't hold a heart, but holds memories and acts upon them with emotion, and yet he doesn't contain a heart. 

 

Namine is an anomaly even amongst special Nobodies. She truly is not supposed to exist as under normal circumstances she could have never been created. However using Sora's body and soul as an intermediary she was able to form her own pseudo existence. So even though she has no real body the base of her existence came from Sora. Sora actually has a body and soul in KH and CoM he simply used a shell like vessel created by Kairi's PoH abilities. In short Sora was a walking heart which is completely different from Namine 's situation. Also Roxas was born with no memories because Sora's time as a Heartless was extremely short. He had no access to those memories because Sora had them.

 

Namine aside, the fact that Sora, Kairi, Namine, Roxas situation is heavily complex, not just with Namine. but the bigger issue is still that. Data-Ansem in DDD suggests something completely different. That he allowed Ventus to have a body even after regaining his. And that appears to be Sora's "ultimate solution". 

This point is contradictory it was the dark part of Ven's heart that created Vanitas.This scenario has less to do with the body and more to do with the heart. Xehanort literally split Ventus in two which allowed Vanitas to have a physical existence. Also Vanitas is completely different from a Heartless, whether Pureblood or Emblem. The Heartless are physical manifestions that occur when darkness captures and takes control of a person's heart. They are not self aware and function on pure instinct the exception are those who willingly turned Heartless. Vanitas was a heart of pure darkness and had control of his heart.

 

If you are defining heartless simply out of self-awarenesss, you can look at Ansem Seeker of Darkness for that. i suppose Vanitas being a heart made of pure darkness is different. Still, it actually has a lot to do with the body and Soul. Yes, they split Ventus into two..at least just his heart. how did the new body come in?

The heart cannot exist on it's own it needs a vessel otherwise it captured by the Heartless or return to Kingdom Hearts. This is why Ven's heart stayed in Sora's body after Sora was split into a Heartless and Nobody and why Kairi's heart sought refuge inside Sora's heart.

Memories being a part of a hearts makeup has been something that has been touched upon since Chain of Memories it's not some foreign concept that was dropped out of the sky after DDD. I don't understand why insist on acting like that wasn't an already established plot point. Also how can a body be made of memories since it's long been established that memories are part of the heart. Again Namine was produced by using Sora's body and soul as an intermediary to form her own existence. It has nothing to do with memories and more to do with her being an anomaly. Namine doesn't even have a physical body it's more of a pseudo shell of an existence. Her link to Sora is why she was able to manipulate his memories.

 

That's not it exactly. Ventus couldn't exist because his heart was far too damaged. And needed to rest within sora's heart to heal. Chain of Memories biggest concept was that the heart "contained" memories. And hearts made them who they are at least in terms of personality as sora's personality changed a bit as he was losing memories. But i'm not denying that their not part of the heart. I'm saying that memories seem to be this universal aspect. 

[Ultima Spark 753]

I don't know why people are worried about the "blood-pumping organ" heart** (or potential problems regarding it) when it would simply fall under "body" by the KH series' standards. The "heart" the series focuses on is the "core essence" of a being**, more-or-less equivalent to "soul" in Western spiritual thought.

 

**see; Terra's scenario, Dwarf Woodlands, where the JP version distinguishes between the physical organ and the spiritual concept.

[Ephemera 37]

I don't know why people are worried about the "blood-pumping organ" heart** (or potential problems regarding it) when it would simply fall under "body" by the KH series' standards. The "heart" the series focuses on is the "core essence" of a being**, more-or-less equivalent to "soul" in Western spiritual thought. **see; Terra's scenario, Dwarf Woodlands, where the JP version distinguishes between the physical organ and the spiritual concept.

If that's the case.. why is there still concepts with how the nature of it all works? Thats a problem with the series....it tries to mix technicalities to excuse one time exceptions all while pretending it's an ethereal design by the universe.