KH2 A Question on Villain's Vale

[Master Eraqus 1,340]

Ok, I really need an explanation for this cause I've been in an argument with someone and I NEED proof.

 

As I recall, Villain's Vale (the castle with the giant Heartless Symbol from Kingdom Hearts 2) is the same castle that we explore through in Kingdom Hearts 1, while the castle we see being rebuilt in Kingdom Hearts 2, the one we enter, is the same one from Birth By Sleep. Am I right here? Cause I'm pretty sure I am. If not, then PLEASE correct me and give me proof. And if I'm right, please give me proof.

 

EDIT PLEASE READ: The proof I have the proves that Villain's Vale is the castle from the first game is that when you examine a 'window' in the bailey, before it gets destroyed, it says that you see Villain's Vale, "where Maleficent used to reside."

Edited August 5, 2015 by Master Eraqus

[Felixx 6,646]

 

 

 

The first one is the castle from KH1, the second from KH2. If you look closely, you can see that they're actually the same. That's the only proof I have. The Villains Vale is a completely different castle.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Felixx

[Master Eraqus 1,340]

 

 

 

The first one is the castle from KH1, the second from KH2. If you look closely, you can see that they're actually the same. That's the only proof I have. The Villains Vale is a completely different castle.

I honestly don't see any similarities between the two whatsoever. I find the castle from the first game very similar to Villain's Vale, such as the giant Heartless symbol and the ruins at the bottom which look very similar to pieces of the castle from the first game. Heck, even when you examine a 'window' from the bailey, before it's in ruins, you are told that you see Villain's Vale, "where Maleficent used to reside."

Edited August 5, 2015 by Master Eraqus

[Felixx 6,646]

I honestly don't see any similarities between the two whatsoever. I find the castle from the first game very similar to Villain's Vale, such as the giant Heartless symbol and the ruins at the bottom which look very similar to pieces of the castle from the first game. Heck, even when you examine a 'window' from the bailey, before it's in ruins, you are told that you see Villain's Vale, "where Maleficent used to reside."

Of course it looks a bit different, because Leon and the others started to restore it, but Villains Vale looks nothing like the castle in KH1.

Like I said that's the only proof I have, it was never mentioned in the game if it's the same one.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Felixx

[Master Eraqus 1,340]

Of course it looks a bit different, because Leon and the others started to restore it, but Villains Vale looks nothing like the castle in KH1.

Like I said that's the only proof I have, it was never mentioned in the game if it's the same one.

It was mentioned it's the same one actually. Like I said, but maybe you didn't see it cause I added after editing my comment, when you examin one of the 'windows' from the bailey, before it's in ruins, you are informed that you see Villain's Vale, "where Maleficent used to reside."

[Eternalsleep 175]

Sorry but there not the same castle. Villains vale is in a totally separate area. The castle you visit in kh 1 is the same castle that has Ansem's study and Tron's world in kh 2

 

Quick note the part about maleficent meant that it was the area where pete revived maleficent at the start of kh 2 and she tried to set up a new base there since leon and co were fixing up ansems castle

Edited August 5, 2015 by Eternalsleep

[Master Eraqus 1,340]

Sorry but there not the same castle. Villains vale is in a totally separate area. The castle you visit in kh 1 is the same castle that has Ansem's study and Tron's world in kh 2

Can I have proof please? Sorry if I sound demanding or anything like that, I really am, but I won't believe this until I get proof. The biggest proof I can give is the 'EDIT' I left up top. 

[Felixx 6,646]

It was mentioned it's the same one actually. Like I said, but maybe you didn't see it cause I added after editing my comment, when you examin one of the 'windows' from the bailey, before it's in ruins, you are informed that you see Villain's Vale, "where Maleficent used to reside."

Yes I saw it, but what should I say? I have no idea why it said that.   For me the two look the same, they have the same towers, both have these strange things on the side.

But what I know is that in KH1 you see Kairis grandmother in the castle, telling Kairi the story of how the worlds were created, and in birth by sleep both are in the front of the castle of KH2, so I assume it's the same one.

There is no "proof", at least I don't know of one.

 

EDIT:        Ansems Report 5

"To study the Heartless behavior, I picked one out for observation. It wiggled its antennae and, as if sensing a target, headed deep into the castle. In the deepest part of the castle, its antennae began vibrating, as if searching for something. Suddenly, a strange door appeared. I'd never known of its existence. It had a large keyhole, but didn't seem to be locked. So I opened the door. What I saw on the other side mystified me. What was that powerful mass of energy? That night I observed a great meteor shower in the sky. Could it be related to the door that I have opened?"

 

As we know Ansem (the Heartless) was residing in the castle of Ansem the Wise (the castle of birth by sleep and KH2), and the keyhole he mentiones is the one Sora sealed in KH1, so it must be the same.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Felixx

[Eternalsleep 175]

Can I have proof please? Sorry if I sound demanding or anything like that, I really am, but I won't believe this until I get proof. The biggest proof I can give is the 'EDIT' I left up top. 

 The only proof that i can think of is there location the castle with Ansem's study( which is the same castle from kh1) is located in the "Postern" area of hollow bastion, Villains Vale is just a little bit further from the "Dark Depth's" area where you fight sephiroth. Two totally different directions.

 

sorry i couldn't find better photo's of the postern

[Master Eraqus 1,340]

 The only proof that i can think of is there location the castle with Ansem's study( which is the same castle from kh1) is located in the "Postern" area of hollow bastion, Villains Vale is just a little bit further from the "Dark Depth's" area where you fight sephiroth. Two totally different directions.

 

sorry i couldn't find better photo's of the postern

I'm sorry if I sound dumb here, but how exactly is that proof? I'm asking how is the castle from KH1 the same as the one we enter in KH2.

[Felixx 6,646]

I don't know if you saw my comment after I've edited it, but in Ansems Report 5 Ansems Heartless mentions a keyhole deep inside the castle, and we know that he resided in the castle of Ansem the Wise, the castle in birth by sleep and KH2. The keyhole must be the one Sora has sealed in Hollow Bastion in KH1.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Felixx

[hatok 6,413]

EDIT PLEASE READ: The proof I have the proves that Villain's Vale is the castle from the first game is that when you examine a 'window' in the bailey, before it gets destroyed, it says that you see Villain's Vale, "where Maleficent used to reside."

this is pretty much all that needs to be said

 

I don't know if you saw my comment after I've edited it, but in Ansems Report 5 Ansems Heartless mentions a keyhole deep inside the castle, and we know that he resided in the castle of Ansem the Wise, the castle in birth by sleep and KH2. The keyhole must be the one Sora has sealed in Hollow Bastion in KH1.

that key hole was summoned by the Princesses of Heart

[Eternalsleep 175]

I'm sorry if I sound dumb here, but how exactly is that proof? I'm asking how is the castle from KH1 the same as the one we enter in KH2.

You don't sound dumb believe me iv'e seen really dumb post before, i should've worded it better. We know that the castle we visited in KH1 is ansem's castle based on reports,quotes, etc.

So we could tell that the castle in the postern area of hollow bastion in kh 2 is the same castle because it has ansem's study in the basement. It's pretty safe to assume that ansem wouldn't keep his basement study in a totally separate castle from where he did his other research

[Felixx 6,646]

this is pretty much all that needs to be said

 

that key hole was summoned by the Princesses of Heart

They just opened the keyhole, but it was already there. And what about Kairis grandmother, who is seen in the library of the castle in KH1?

I don't think she would go to a place called the Villain's Vale.

[hatok 6,413]

They just opened the keyhole, but it was already there. And what about Kairis grandmother, who is seen in the library of the castle in KH1?

I don't think she would go to a place called the Villain's Vale.

Villain's Vale wasn't ALWAYS Maleficent's Castle... but it's stated to be hers in KH2, so that's that

Kairi's Grandma was in that library because that's what they had models for, and the new area of Hollow Bastion was conceptualized yet

though even then, it's not hard at all to imagine reasons why they'd be in other castles. Villain's Vale has the look of a research centre

[Felixx 6,646]

Villain's Vale wasn't ALWAYS Maleficent's Castle... but it's stated to be hers in KH2, so that's that

Kairi's Grandma was in that library because that's what they had models for, and the new area of Hollow Bastion was conceptualized yet

though even then, it's not hard at all to imagine reasons why they'd be in other castles. Villain's Vale has the look of a research centre

Well we just can agree that we disagree here. For me both castles we have access to look absolutely the same. And maybe Maleficent had more than one residents.

And btw, Leon and the others mentioned in KH1 that this castle was Ansems.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Felixx

[Guest]

For clarity, what exactly does villain vale look like?

[Felixx 6,646]

For clarity, what exactly does villain vale look like?

[Green Sparrow 795]

I always thought the castle you entered in KH1 was the same castle you see being constructed in KH2. Obviously they don't look exactly the same, but a year has gone by with Leon and the others tearing it down and building it up.As for Villain's Vale... remember what was said back in KH1. Maleficent invaded Radiant Garden, so I assume she had a base, and that base was probably Villain's Vale. So yes, Master Eraqus was correct that Maleficent use to reside there, but only before the events of KH1, and Felixx is correct in that both castles are the same.See? Everyone is right!!!

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

this is pretty much all that needs to be said

 

that key hole was summoned by the Princesses of Heart

No, the Keyhole was already there, the Princesses simply revealed it. That's how these things have worked, they've never been "summoned" where ever anyone wants them to be, they've been hidden in set areas and they can only be REVEALED by the Keyblade, the Princesses, or special otherworldly beings like Genie.

 

As for the whole the castle dispute thing, it's been made very unclear as it is one of the millions of things that Nomura has yet to clarify (and I have the sinking suspicion that he may never clarify at all in the future...). However, based on several examples given in game I think I have a theory that might help.

 

First off, I believe it is apparent that the Castle seen in KH1 (the one with the Keyhole and Library) and the main Castle we see in KH2 (the one with the study and Space Paranoids) are indeed the same castle. For starters, although they have their differences, both castles when you get down to them do look strikingly similar to each other.

 

 

 

The similarities: Both have twin columns on either side of their main entrance, and if you look carefully on the bottom of the right pillars of both images, you'll see that they both have a rather prominent cylindrical wall similar to the Postern on the left side, only larger. Also of note are the twisting pipes, and although the pipes are broken apart on the right side of the KH2 castle, it would appear to suggest that they are being dismantled and removed from the castle bit by bit. This is significant because it is suggested in the reports that as Ansem and his apprentices continued their research they modified the castle more and more for their experiments, thus the heavy factory appearance that the castle in KH1 has. This is likely what lead to the KH1 castle's half-factory half-castle appearance, and what resulted in the broken up "repairing" state of the same castle in KH2, as the Restoration Committee is trying to make the castle look like it once was, as seen here:

 

 

In this picture it's pretty clear that the original castle in BBS looks more similar in appearance to the castle in KH2, with the exception of looking complete and in it's full glory with no upper pipes or factory equipment. It also lacks the various cranes seen in the KH2 castle used to move the various large structures of the castle into place. It also has more of the decorative spiky things that also seem to correlate with a lot of the weapons of the then human apprentices of Ansem. But what's also of note is the various bridge-like walk-ways and paths that go seemingly nowhere on the outsides of the castle (perhaps they may have been walkways that served as docking areas for an early lift system perhaps?). Some pieces similar to these can be found in the various debris that surrounds the Villain's Vale in KH2, seen here:

 

 

(wanted to use a bigger pic, the site wouldn't let me)

 

Now because the differences are so glaringly obvious, I guess I should point them out. For one thing, their surrounding environments are vastly different. In KH1, the castle is the sole structure of the entire world, surrounded by nothing but water and distant blue mountains, as well as the ruins in the Rising Falls. But by the time KH2 comes around, the castle is surrounded by a repopulating village. Meanwhile Villain's Vale is shown for the first time and appears to be in an empty gorge surrounded by dry blue hills. Now a possibility for the world's rapid change in appearance could be due to the fact that when Maleficent first invaded the world 9 years prior to KH1 she destroyed most of the world with Darkness. Because the world was so ravaged, it's likely that all that remained of it where the castle, some ruins, and the now desolate landscape. The castle's changed appearance, as I explained, is likely due to the redesigns done by Ansem and his apprentices, and then some finishing touches from Maleficent when she took over. Ansem and the others made more factory like components to help with their experiments, likely including the Heartless Manufactory, and when Xehanort and the apprentices betrayed Ansem, they continued with more factory-like components to further their research, possibly including the Heartless emblem. By the time Maleficent took over, it was likely already in it's half-factory half-castle appearance that it had in KH1, but it's also clear that Maleficent added many of the more rose and thorn looking features such as the patterns on the floor of the Conference Room/Castle Chapel Entrence and the huge thorns in the Castle Chapel itself, which seamlessly fit in with the twisting spires of the castle's pipes and machinery. With the defeat of Ansem and the restoration of the worlds at the end of the game, it is likely that the rest of Hollow Bastion's world was restored, albeit still greatly damaged due to the strong Darkness that had once been there. It's likely from there that the Hollow Bastion Restoration Committee began rebuilding the world to it's former self, going off of the various ruins that may had been restored, their memories of the town, and possibly any old blueprints or schematics they may have come across (though it is likely there wasn't many since they were so surprised to see what the town looked like back in the day). They were also likely taking apart the various piping and machinery that had surrounded the castle's exterior to try and restore it to it's original appearance from BBS. Thus you can see the various evidence that it was the KH1 castle with the taken apart pipes, leaving the castle sort of half-finished as literally half of it's structure, being from the factory-half, has been removed.

 

This brings up the question that if this is the same castle from KH1 with the machinery half removed, why aren't the areas from KH1 accessible? Well if you recall the only way to enter the castle in the first game was through the use of a lift at the top of the Rising Falls area. The lifts were a huge component of the first game since it was the main way to traverse the various areas of the exceedingly large castle. But if you take note of the position of the Rising Falls' ruins in relation to the castle's forward position in this picture:

 

 

, it is apparent that a natural staircase walkway may have existed at one point, much like how such a pathway is present in BBS, shown here:

 

 

With that in mind, considering the massive damage to the world as well as the extreme redesigns done by Ansem and everyone else, it's likely that many of the old easy access pathways were destroyed and the lift system had to be put in place to allow access to the castle. It is likely that by KH2 however the lift system is no longer in use as the machinery is being stripped down from the castle, making the direct access to the front door of the castle physically inaccessible for the time being. With that being said, this makes the pathway from the Postern to be the only accessible entrance to the castle shown so far, and as such it leads to a different part of the castle than we've seen in KH1. In KH2 we seem to explore the lower parts of the castle consisting of various corridors (possibly ruined from all the change and destruction in the castle's history), Ansem's Study/Computer Room, and the Heartless Manufatory, while in KH1 we seem to go through mostly the middle and upper interiors of the castle along with some of the subterranean passageways underneath the castle. It's possible that the corridors, in their prime, may have at one point led to the various different parts of the castle, so it's possible that some of them could actually lead to the past areas of KH1 or yet unseen areas from the original castle, possibly even that one mysterious hallway in the End of The World's World Nexus in the Hollow Bastion segment, which housed a mysterious machine that many speculate may have been one of the various devices used to turn people into Heartless.

 

Of course there leaves one other thing, what about Villain's Vale? Well, as vague as it is, one thing we know for sure is that at once point Maleficent used to reside there. However, that alone doesn't tell us what we need to know. When did she stay there? What's it's relation to the Hollow Bastion castle? Is it a different castle? Why isn't it in KH1 if it isn't the same castle? Why are we seeing it now? Well, this is mostly where pure speculation comes in, as Nomura has given no other indication about it's history, other than Maleficent used to live there. If we're sticking with our theory that the castle seen in KH1 is the same one in the town of Radiant Garden in KH2 and BBS, then we can safely assume that Villain's Vale is a separate castle. What's more, we can see that it is in a rather decrepit state, almost as if it had been stripped of most of it's body, which can be assumed be the cause of all the rubble underneath it. Also of note is that the various spires in the junk pile in front of it look somewhat similar to various parts of the original Radiant Garden castle seen in BBS. A theory I have is that at some point when the apprentices began radically redesigning the castle they tossed away all of the discarded parts in some sort of landfill, which may explain the rather pit-like appearance of the surrounding area of Villain's Vale. This would explain why various pieces look similar to the pointy parts of the castle as well as several more castle-like pieces of wall and tower being amidst the rubble. As for Villain's Vale's existence, I'm willing to believe that it may have been Maleficent's original base of operations before she took over Radiant Garden. At some point she did destroy her world so she was left without a base, so it's likely that she managed to set one up on the outskirts of town. However it was probably very difficult to do through magic, so it might explain it's meager appearance. She likely had her sights set on the town's castle the whole time and just needed the Vale as a temporary headquarters until she could enact her scheme and rally her forces. Because of this, maybe she was trying to make her temporary base look similar in appearance to then converted Hollow Bastion castle, which is why there is some traces of machinery, castle stone, and the large Heartless emblem on the front (making it more of an homage rather than the same castle). Also possible is that while the Restoration Committee was restoring the castle they may have salvaged some of what remained of Villain's Vale and the debris surrounding it to repair their castle, leaving the Vale in a worse state then ever. However any such efforts probably stopped as soon as the Heartless began swarming that place.

 

And this pretty much concludes why I believe the castle of KH1 to be the same one seen in the town in KH2, and that Villain's Vale and the Hollow Bastion castle are two separate castles entirely. KH2 Final Mix also helps support this with the addition of the Cavern of Remembrance, which in many ways resembles the lower crystalline structures and landscapes of KH1 Hollow Bastion's base area, as well as the additional rising falls in the Transport to Remembrance hall and the Garden of Assemblage areas. They aren't exactly the same Rising Falls area from KH1, but its similarities would suggest that there are several similar areas of rising waterfalls surrounding the general area of Radiant Garden, supporting the past images of KH1 Hollow Bastion being almost made up of water, crystal, and rock and BBS Radiant Garden (castle and town) being entirely surrounded by water and distant vibrant mountains with plant life all around. It shows that the environment of the world really suffered from the attack of Darkness Maleficent wrought upon the world, as no vegetation is visible anywhere by KH1 and even though the town was restored (more or less), by KH2 almost all of the water that made up the world had drained away, leaving many dry rocky canyons in it's place, with only a few packets of its supernatural water being left behind. This kind of analysis is interesting in that it not only sheds some light on a possibility as to the relationship of the two castles, but it also might bring up a new mystery as to how the world itself has changed over the years.

 

I hope the long length doesn't bother anyone and I hope this helps with any possible theories anyone else has. If nothing else...MORE PICTURES! YAY!

Edited August 6, 2015 by Hero of Light XIV