Do You Consider KH's Story Deep?

[hatok 6,413]

That's not what I meant; I probably could have worded that better. It's not that kid's story's can't be meaningful, it's that KH is addressing very mature themes that are very difficult put into a story designed for younger audiences. If it were just about friendship and never giving up, things like that, then it'd be fine, but when they bring in elements of death and grief, existential crises, how our memories can define us, they can't address them with the attention those themes deserve. You rarely see any kid's content do that well (ironically, Disney is about the only one to do it right), and pretty much no video game has ever done it justice either.

honestly, if KH was just allowed to get away with what kid's TV show can get away with, its chances of being good would be much higher, imo

Really though, I wish Kh lived up the the writing standards of those kid's TV shows

[Ephemera 37]

Kingdom Hearts and Chain of Memories was considered deep. But since Kh2, the series has become more about rehashing the same thing, and retconning. 

[Dio Brando 5,810]

Sora has plenty of cues that flesh out his character. He believes in Santa, he wants to be king, and he'll believe in a lie enough to make it true

The fact that he hasn't faced misery isn't really a character flaw, or a problem. A character doesn't need deep psychological issues to be good. They don't need angst. Somtimes... they're just allowed mt be happy. 

Sora's still had his problems. He lost a year of his life after having the memories of everyone he knew and loved wiped away. He lost his home land. he regularly loses Riku and/or Kairi, and the keyblade didn't even choose him.

The idea that Sora being happy has to be a facade in order for him to be a good character is... strange to say the least

And characters arcs and development are overrated. They're not needed in every situation, and they aren't a secret recipe for an endearing character.

(it's portrayed, btw, since you asked)

 

I dunno if it was your intent, but I STRONGLY disagree with the idea that being aimed at kids not not tackling mature themes excludes something from being meaningful in a literary sense

Dude if he doesn't show that he cares about all the things you said he lost.....why should the audience care?That's like if a character in a movie saw his father dying and he was like:Oh well,another death another day.

 

The only time Sora has shown any sort of concern about those things was in Chain of Memories where he was legitimately pissed at what Marluxia has been doing to Namine and maybe when Saix kidnapped Kairi in KH2 and finally him hating Xemnas for how he treat people's hearts in KH DDD,those are stuff that is interesting to see more of but....other than that he never shown any sort of contempt towards Organization XIII or any of the Xehanorts(except Xemnas) nor did he show any other emotions that we haven't seen him do yet.And no believing in santa isn't a character trait more so than someone's choice of belief

 

Even when he lost his homeland he never once felt any sort of devestation or worried that there is a possibility that everyone he knew and loved might have been killed,even when he lost a year of his life he barely even notice that.Losing to Riku & Kairi?Unless you mean the beginning segment in KH1 where you can intentionally win there is no backstory further than that suggesting that RikuKairi always win over him and finally,why would he be worried about the keyblade not choosing him when in the end it ended up choosing him anyway.

 

We need more backstory for those guys cuz aside from what we've been told,which is less than 10% about their lives so far,we know jackshit about those guys and how they lived their lives prior to their adventure aside from Terra and Aqua visiting them and Sora hosting Ventus's heart in BBS

 

Was Sora's life in schoolhome in Destiny Island always that perfect?Does he have any sort of dreams and hopes outside of visiting other worlds(something that Riku desired before him and was just a theory in their heads before the heartless attacked).....WHO THE firetruck ARE THEY?

 

 

 

Sure a character doesn't need psychological issues to be good but at the same time they need more emotions than the typical shonen troupe,you gotta maintain a balance cuz making a character one of two extremes:either way too happy or way too miserable,doesn't make for a relatable character that the audience can attach themselves into

 

That's why you don't see characters like Squall(too miserable and negative) and Sora(too happy and lucky) on a detailed top ten list

 

It's really important to humanize your characters so that the audience can see a bit of themselves in them

 

Cuz otherwise there won't be any difference between Sora and a silent protagonist,he might as well be a Mario or Link but given the ability to speak

 

Sure you can make a character a happy-go-lucky dude but you still can make him relatable with an interesting character arc.

 

Also one last thing I wanna call bullshit on:

 

 

 

characters arcs and development are overrated. They're not needed in every situation, and they aren't a secret recipe for an endearing character

Maybe....if the game involved in this conversation was a platformer or an action game where you don't necessarily need them for the game to be good

 

but in a 30+ hour RPG?THAT'S STORY-TELLING 101 AND THEY'RE OBVIOUS STUFF ONE SHOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT!Unless your RPG is more focused on multi player like Pokemon or an MMO like Final Fantasy XIV a realm Reborn,YOU NEED TO DEVELOP YOUR CHARACTERS cuz the audience are gonna spend a good chunk of their precious time with them in those games especially if it's a story-driven game.What is so endearing about Sora that you won't be able to find in other iconic RPG characters?I'm gonna bring up Zidane from Final Fantasy IX,a character Sora is trying really hard to mimic but lack the same sort of charm.

 

Sure Zidane is a happy go lucky womanizer and he cracks a lot of jokes throughout the game but even he has his own concerns,he has a pretty good backstory and the more you get through the game,the more you know about him and the more you relate to him and the other characters in FFIX like Vivi,Garnet,Steiner......etc.

 

Sora is only endearing if either one doesn't play a lot of RPGs other than Kingdom Hearts,yes I know I'm not speaking for everyone but I can mention a lot of characters both from Square's library of RPG and outside of Square's library of RPGs that are much better written than Sora.

 

Personal preference is a thing sure and that's fine if he's someone's favorite character but on a table of discussions like this,Sora falls flat on his face unless KH3 proves his naysayers wrong

 

Also,one last thing:Try to say that character arcscharacter development are overrated to any big name novel writer and see if heshe either gonna burst out laughing or give a detailed explanation of how non-sensical such a statement is.Those things are ESSENTIAL if characters are the focus of the narrative and not the ongoing action

Edited August 4, 2015 by Smash Mega Koopa

[Vexen 73]

It's deep enough to get stuck.

[hatok 6,413]

COMPLETELY forgot to reply to this, sorry

 

Dude if he doesn't show that he cares about all the things you said he lost.....why should the audience care?That's like if a character in a movie saw his father dying and he was like:Oh well,another death another day.

Well, generally people have more empathy than that but... why do you have to care? Since when does stopping that bad guys from destroying the universe need a deep motivation? I live in the universe, I'd rather it not get destroyed

 

The only time Sora has shown any sort of concern about those things was in Chain of Memories where he was legitimately pissed at what Marluxia has been doing to Namine and maybe when Saix kidnapped Kairi in KH2 and finally him hating Xemnas for how he treat people's hearts in KH DDD,those are stuff that is interesting to see more of but....other than that he never shown any sort of contempt towards Organization XIII or any of the Xehanorts(except Xemnas) nor did he show any other emotions that we haven't seen him do yet.And no believing in santa isn't a character trait more so than someone's choice of belief

Sora forgives who he thinks is Ansem. He cries when he finds Riku. He teases Donald. He yells at Jiminy. He abdnons his friends to help another friend. He ignores calls to wake up in a desire to help the people in his heart

You can really only say Sora barely shows anything if you ignore all of his games. He's the main character. He has a lot of screen time to show nuances.

And you missed the point with the Santa thing. It's not the fact that he believes, it's that he believes in relation to context. Sora believes in Santa, Riku doesn't. This shows an element of each of their personalities. How Sora reactsto finding out Santa is real is also a character trait.

 

Even when he lost his homeland he never once felt any sort of devestation or worried that there is a possibility that everyone he knew and loved might have been killed,even when he lost a year of his life he barely even notice that.Losing to Riku & Kairi?Unless you mean the beginning segment in KH1 where you can intentionally win there is no backstory further than that suggesting that RikuKairi always win over him and finally,why would he be worried about the keyblade not choosing him when in the end it ended up choosing him anyway.

Why does he have to be devastated? He doesn't know anything about the situation, he doesn't even know Destiny Islands was lost to darkness, just that he was swept away from it. But that doesn't matter, dwelling on the possible death of everyone he loves isn't in keeping with the tone KH was going for. Expecting that would be silly. Instead, we get Sora being concerned, confused, then overwhelmed with excitement at discovering he finally made it to another world. He eventually meets Riku and Kairi, so again, why would he assume everyone is dead?

and what makes the emotions he DOES express not count? Why are misery and grief the only vald responses to being flung into a space adventure to magical worlds?

And uh... there's a pretty long backstory of Sora losing Riku or Kairi. Sora loses Riku and Kairi at the start of KH1, finds thme both, loses them again, finds them, loses them AGAIN. Then Kairi gets kidnapped in KH2, while Riku is missing. Heck, even in DDD, Sora and Riku get separated.

 

We need more backstory for those guys cuz aside from what we've been told,which is less than 10% about their lives so far,we know jackshit about those guys and how they lived their lives prior to their adventure aside from Terra and Aqua visiting them and Sora hosting Ventus's heart in BBS

because there's no room and it's not needed.

But yeah, how they lived isn't important. Definitely not worth adding on to the 5 hours of cutscenes KH games usually have

KH, like many other games featuring young characters, cut the strings from their past as soon as possible, but the point is to focus on the adventure, the big events, the magic powers.

Not Sora living a normal life on Destiny Islands

It's not that that's a bad thing to do, it's jsut not the kind of game KH is

 

Was Sora's life in schoolhome in Destiny Island always that perfect?Does he have any sort of dreams and hopes outside of visiting other worlds(something that Riku desired before him and was just a theory in their heads before the heartless attacked).....WHO THE firetruck ARE THEY?

What does school drama add to KH? What hopes and dreams would a 14 year old kid have? Already KH1 has long sicne established Sora is not terribly ambitious

Who are they? Some kids, doing some stuff. Whether or not Sora got an A in biology doesn't impact that. We cna leanr plenty by just seeing them act in the present. We don't need flashbacks. flashbacks could be used.... but they're not, and they're not essential.

 

Sure a character doesn't need psychological issues to be good but at the same time they need more emotions than the typical shonen troupe,you gotta maintain a balance cuz making a character one of two extremes:either way too happy or way too miserable,doesn't make for a relatable character that the audience can attach themselves into

...you just called it a trope

do you know WHY things are called tropes?

Because they're overused

do you know WHY things are overused?

Because people ENJOY them. A character being happy or miserable has really nothing to do with being relatable. You just need to be able to superimpose yourself over them. And it's funny you talk about being relatable while going on about backstory when those two things are in direct competition. The more specific a backstory gets, the fewer people will relate to that character, as that character will become too defined. It's a common technique, keeping stories vague to bump up the realtability factor. Sora's just a normal kid who gets a SUPER AWESOME MAGIC SWORD. He's not super smart, he's not super ambitious, he's just a guy. Perfect window to plant the seed of fantasy in KH's target demographic, and a big part of why so many people include keyblades in their fan characters

Beginning to think you're just saying a character isn't relatable because that's how you feel

 

That's why you don't see characters like Squall(too miserable and negative) and Sora(too happy and lucky) on a detailed top ten list

But... you do. Optimists, in particular, like Sora, since he's so much happier and more positive than most Square Enix characters

and I don't know who, but Squall is REALLY REEEAAAALLLY popular, too. There's a reason he's in KH in the first place

people come in all shapes

some people like Squall

 

It's really important to humanize your characters so that the audience can see a bit of themselves in them

and you don't feel Sora's human enough? Because he's happy?

and here you go again with seeing yourself in someone, while also asking for psychological stuff AND a deep backstory. The two can coincide, but that's rare, at least in terms of mass appeal

 

Cuz otherwise there won't be any difference between Sora and a silent protagonist,he might as well be a Mario or Link but given the ability to speak

But he's not. Sora still makes decisions, not the player. He still interacts with the characters and the plot. He has a defined enough personality that if you were to imagine a situation, you'd know what he'd say.

You can't argue that a character has too extreme of emotions while saying he's nearly an emotionless puppet, like Link

 

Sure you can make a character a happy-go-lucky dude but you still can make him relatable with an interesting character arc.

you don't need an arc, and you can't argue a character isn't relatable just because you don't like him

 

Also one last thing I wanna call bullshit on:

good luck with that

 

Maybe....if the game involved in this conversation was a platformer or an action game where you don't necessarily need them for the game to be good

arc =/= good

 

but in a 30+ hour RPG?THAT'S STORY-TELLING 101 AND THEY'RE OBVIOUS STUFF ONE SHOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT!Unless your RPG is more focused on multi player like Pokemon or an MMO like Final Fantasy XIV a realm Reborn,YOU NEED TO DEVELOP YOUR CHARACTERS cuz the audience are gonna spend a good chunk of their precious time with them in those games especially if it's a story-driven game.What is so endearing about Sora that you won't be able to find in other iconic RPG characters?I'm gonna bring up Zidane from Final Fantasy IX,a character Sora is trying really hard to mimic but lack the same sort of charm.

Storytelling 101 says you HAVE to have a character arc? Fascinating.

No, character development isn't essential

See, the problem with character development is that you have to change the character. That can work fairly well in a contained story, but it gets harder and harder in an expanded story

Many shows have a mini arc, where an episode introduces a problem, then has it dealt with, and that's that, and some things have full arcs that properly carry into each part of the story

but it's so far from essential.

Beloved adventure series Indiana Jones... has no character development to speak of. He's just a competent action guy doing adventure stuff. One of my favourite TV shows, Avatar, uses the mini arc method, introducing a character arc for portion of the story, but characters begin and end in basically the same state they were originally in, in a lot of the case. Portal doesn't resolve with Glados or Chell learning something. Dragon Quest IX doesn't have a character, simply events that happen to faceless drones.

 

A character arc is just ONE of many literary devices. It's not essential, and in an ongoing series like KH... a poor fit.

KH is a story driven by events. Thing happen, so the characters set out to do more things. The information we're given is related to those things. I've said a million times, KH has poor execution, but the framework is fine.

KH is somewhat nonlinear, letting you choose worlds. Each world has a self contained story, so it's already not a good fit for an overarching character arc. But it's also action driven too. There's a lot of fighting to push the story along. So that's where the narrative focuses, so it can augment the gameplay

also Sora and Zidane really aren't all that similar, unless all you need to "try hard to copy" him is be happy.

 

Sure Zidane is a happy go lucky womanizer

much like Sora

 

Sure Zidane is a happy go lucky womanizer and he cracks a lot of jokes throughout the game but even he has his own concerns,he has a pretty good backstory and the more you get through the game,the more you know about him and the more you relate to him and the other characters in FFIX like Vivi,Garnet,Steiner......etc.

Zidane's appeal doesn't come from his backstory. He's fleshed out throughout his standalone game. This is such an unfitting comparison. FFIX is a huge slow paced JRPG focusing on Zidane Garnet and Vivi. It's focused on them, so they have plenty of time to show facets of their character. The story drives the events, while KH is driven by events. In KH, you have to go to a bunch of worlds, with only 20 minutes of cutscenes before you move to the next one. It's an action game, to the pace is dramatically faster than FFIX, and the focus is on introducing new characters with each world, as well as the actions of the expanded KH cast, which features a good 30 or so characters at this point

this isn't good or bad, just COMPLETELY different. FFIX has the breathing room and the ability to take it slow. You couldn't have an interlude in KH where Sora decides to walk around a village while... I dunno, let's say Kairi, talks to the locals to learn how to talk good. That's the difference

 

Sora is only endearing if either one doesn't play a lot of RPGs other than Kingdom Hearts,yes I know I'm not speaking for everyone but I can mention a lot of characters both from Square's library of RPG and outside of Square's library of RPGs that are much better written than Sora.

Beauty is in the eye oft he beholder

tonnes of people on this site will argue that Riku is a really well developed and written character. I disagree HEARTILY, and could write for ages on all the reasons why... but that doesn't make their view bad.

I can name characters better written than Sora... none of them are from spectacle fighters

it's pretty silly to think that the fact that better written things negate anything lesser. To quote Qui Gon Jinn

someone, somewhere is better written. I think Radiant Historia is better written than any Final Fantasy... but we're not talking about that, are we?

 

Also pfffthahaha yeah okay, must be people who don't play RPGs. Seems legit. That would explain why so many fans of Sora say he's a refreshing break from the dreary protagonists of most other RPGs.

Because they don't play them

 

Personal preference is a thing sure and that's fine if he's someone's favorite character but on a table of discussions like this,Sora falls flat on his face unless KH3 proves his naysayers wrong

Now this little tidbit is fascinating. All the problems you just mentioned are AS bad, if not worse for the cast of KH... so what's your argument for Sora being a weak character by that standard? What makes him stand out from the likes of Riku, Axel, or dare I say... Xion?

 

Also,one last thing:Try to say that character arcscharacter development are overrated to any big name novel writer and see if heshe either gonna burst out laughing or give a detailed explanation of how non-sensical such a statement is.Those things are ESSENTIAL if characters are the focus of the narrative and not the ongoing action

If an author burst out laughing at that they're not particularly well versed in their craft. Though I'm curious how much a novel writer would know about writing a script for a disney spectacle fighter

and characters aren't the focus of KH

 

I dunno when character development became a get out of jail free card for being a "good writer"