The biggest/worst plot holes /retcons

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Data-Sora is hardly a major account as he lives within the rules of the Journal. As the journal explained that the "hearts" in the Journal are completely different from the Hearts in the real world. Repliku was still a being that followed the rules of Castle Oblivion. Xion was the exception, but not exactly confirmed that what she had was indeed a "heart". So no, suggesting that people "grow" a heart is completely different. Keep in mind that at this point you are confusing that having a heart, doesn't mean having a conscious or mind.

 

Data Sora is NOT any different. He grew a heart and bc of that Nomura can bring him back if he so chooses. If one can grow a heart they can be saved as  said in DDD. Repliku was a replica that became his own person( this has nothing to do with CO and everything to do with how he was made and the unforeseen issues of replicas becoming their own person with their own sense of self allowing them to grow their own hearts) and will and heart and that in itself made him a failed replica for the orgs usage. The same reason why Xion became a problem. It was even questioned by the other org members why Axel never reported this problem with replicas. Also a heart is directly tied to a mind and conscious .This is how Xehanort takes over his vessels hearts and therefore minds with his heart implanted in them ( eventually their entire existence)

 

That's what Kingdom Hearts 2 confirmed. The reason why Nobodies can exist is because they came from strong hearts. One of the key evidence of having Hearts isn't personality, but missing something within themselves, one of the key things they were missing was feelings, but it was more to it than that as some reports in 358/2 days continues. The members sought out to gain back what they had lost, and had their own memories already. at that point, they should gain hearts instantly rather than "growing" one. 

 

This still has little to do with the fact that as of DDD Nomura has changed this - thus why it's a retcon. Still also doesn't change the current direction of where this is heading. Also doesn't change the fact that the heart is formed with memories as well just like that previous interview by Nomura even said. Regular nobodies still have memories bc they are still connected to their hearts/heartless..This doesn't negate the fact that hearts are also formed by memories.

 

You explained absolutely NOTHING about that situation. Axel should of grown a heart with his new found experience. When defeated, he shouldn't have become "Lea" again, he should've been his own person by then. Special Nobodies or not, Roxas and Namine merged back within Sora and Kairi, and as the ending suggests are no longer "in torment" but because of new information such as 358/2 days and re:coded, they are still in torment. Namine for not being. That is a "retcon". 

 

I already pointed out that special nobodies like Roxas and Namine are diff scenarios. Also I did explain to you a feasible answer to how the process would go with normal regular nobodies based off what has already been given to us. I have explained what I thought happened SEVERAL times. Yet I have explained nothing you say? You have yet to give a good reason as to why that doesn't  work except to complain you don't like the retcon. No one is denying it's a retcon. I am saying out of all the retcons this one is the least concernable bc Nomura has always presented the idea of anything can grow a heart. This is explained in detail in DDD as well. Go rewatch the cutscenes. It is pretty well spelled out that Sora will be able to bring all these people back and WHY. Because they grew their own hearts. Again , this is what was explained over and over in DDD esp by Ansem the Wise and Xemnas. At this point you are just being argumentative because you don't like it.

 

Another Retcon, the problem with how Memories play an integral part of the story as it takes away from one suddenly isn't a problem anymore. Sora couldn't have awaken without Roxas merging back and giving the remaining memories, the same with Xion. those memories were integral to them "being". How Sora had to forget all the real memories in Castle Oblivion because they were linked with the fake ones Namine implanted. 

 

Sora was technically co- existing just fine until Namine screwed with his heart and memories. It wasn't until she had to fix what she did it became pertinent they all merge together. And this didn't account for them growing their own hearts. Once again here you are not accepting that DDD has shown us that all these people became their own person bc they grew their own heart- even a puppet aka Xion ..The same reason why Sora tells Roxas he was his own person. I couldn't care less if they bring back any of them but that doesn't make this any less true as i explained previously. It was explained in both Re:Coded and DDD that they were gonna be saved. DDD showed how. You conveniently keep ignoring this

 

This thread is called "the biggest/worst retcons/plot holes" i'm labeling as both. Its obvious i don't like it. But theres more to it than just not liking it or not. Its the fact that it does indeed provide bigger issues. The idea of Nobodies who are specifically designed to not have hearts and being the other half of themselves seems to defeat the purpose. As a retcon, it was designed to make everyone have an unbelievable happy ending. This is equivalent to Twilight's Jacob imprinting on Bella's infant

 

I understand why you would find this unsatisfactory. I really do. I have voiced my own displeasure over other retcons that I think cause much more issues and damage like the 13 vs 7 instead of 1 pure lights and 1 pure darkness to forge the Xblade retcon. All I'm pointing out is, out of all the retcons and issues with the retcons, Nomura has the most room to play with this since he has always made and shown it to be that anything can grow a heart. There is a difference however between retcon and plothole and they aren't necessarily the same thing. It only becomes a true plothole if there is no given explanation to fill in the gaps per se .Therefore this particular retcon isn't exactly a plothole YET.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Flaming Lea

[Ephemera 37]

 

Data-Sora is hardly a major account as he lives within the rules of the Journal. As the journal explained that the "hearts" in the Journal are completely different from the Hearts in the real world. Repliku was still a being that followed the rules of Castle Oblivion. Xion was the exception, but not exactly confirmed that what she had was indeed a "heart". So no, suggesting that people "grow" a heart is completely different. Keep in mind that at this point you are confusing that having a heart, doesn't mean having a conscious or mind.

 

Data Sora is NOT any different. He grew a heart and bc of that Nomura can bring him back if he so chooses. If one can grow a heart they can be saved as  said in DDD. Repliku was a replica that became his own person( this has nothing to do with CO and everything to do with how he was made and the unforeseen issues of replicas becoming their own person with their own sense of self allowing them to grow their own hearts) and will and heart and that in itself made him a failed replica for the orgs usage. The same reason why Xion became a problem. It was even questioned by the other org members why Axel never reported this problem with replicas. Also a heart is directly tied to a mind and conscious .This is how Xehanort takes over his vessels hearts and therefore minds with his heart implanted in them ( eventually their entire existence)

 

Missing the bigger picture of what we're seeing. People are born with a Heart, a Body, and a Soul. Data-Sora, Repliku and Xion, don't exactly fall into this situation. 

 

That's what Kingdom Hearts 2 confirmed. The reason why Nobodies can exist is because they came from strong hearts. One of the key evidence of having Hearts isn't personality, but missing something within themselves, one of the key things they were missing was feelings, but it was more to it than that as some reports in 358/2 days continues. The members sought out to gain back what they had lost, and had their own memories already. at that point, they should gain hearts instantly rather than "growing" one. 

 

This still has little to do with the fact  that as of DDD Nomura has changed this - thus why it's a retcon. Still also doesn't change the current direction of where this is heading. Also doesn't change the fact that the heart is formed with memories as well just like that previous interview by Nomura even said

 

It supports my main point. Of how bad it is. And i'm not even trying to change the direction its going. i'm fully aware of where its heading, and despite whether i like it or not, this is indeed a retcon to support a less than realistic purpose.

 

You explained absolutely NOTHING about that situation. Axel should of grown a heart with his new found experience. When defeated, he shouldn't have become "Lea" again, he should've been his own person by then. Special Nobodies or not, Roxas and Namine merged back within Sora and Kairi, and as the ending suggests are no longer "in torment" but because of new information such as 358/2 days and re:coded, they are still in torment. Namine for not being. That is a "retcon". 

 

I already pointed out that special nobodies like Roxas and Namine are diff scenarios. Also I did explain to you a feasible answer to how the process would go with normal regular nobodies based off what has already been given to us. I have explained what I thought happened SEVERAL times. Yet I have explained nothing you say? You have yet to give a good reason as to why that doesn't  work except to complain you don't like the retcon. No one is denying it's a retcon. I am saying out of all the retcons this one is the least concernable bc Nomura has always presented the idea of anything can grow a heart. This is explained in detail in DDD as well. Go rewatch the cutscenes. It is pretty well spelled out that Sora will be able to bring all these people back and WHY. Because they grew their own hearts. Again , this is what was explained over and over in DDD esp by Ansem the Wise and Xemnas. At this point you are just being argumentative because you don't like it.

 

What you thought, isn't what we know. And thats the problem. I dont want your opinion and act like its fact. You fail to udnerstand thats the very problem. 

 

Another Retcon, the problem with how Memories play an integral part of the story as it takes away from one suddenly isn't a problem anymore. Sora couldn't have awaken without Roxas merging back and giving the remaining memories, the same with Xion. those memories were integral to them "being". How Sora had to forget all the real memories in Castle Oblivion because they were linked with the fake ones Namine implanted. 

 

Sora was technically co- existing just fine until Namine screwed with his heart and memories. It wasn't until she had to fix what she did it became pertinent they all merge together. And this didn't account for them growing their own hearts. Once again here you are not accepting that DDD has shown us that all these people became their own person bc they grew their own heart- even a puppet aka Xion ..The same reason why Sora tells Roxas he was his own person. I couldn't care less if they bring back any of them but that doesn't make this any less true as i explained previously. It was explained in both Re:Coded and DDD that they were gonna be saved. DDD showed how. You conveniently keep ignoring this

 

No, i'm not forgetting these, its my main driving point of my argument. Re:coded is easy to dismiss. When Data-Sora was fighting Data-Sora's Heartless, it became its own being aswell, and Mickey (or Data Riku, dont remember) even explained how it worked.  

 

This thread is called "the biggest/worst retcons/plot holes" i'm labeling as both. Its obvious i don't like it. But theres more to it than just not liking it or not. Its the fact that it does indeed provide bigger issues. The idea of Nobodies who are specifically designed to not have hearts and being the other half of themselves seems to defeat the purpose. As a retcon, it was designed to make everyone have an unbelievable happy ending. This is equivalent to Twilight's Jacob imprinting on Bella's infant

 

I understand why you would find this unsatisfactory. I really do. I have voiced my own displeasure over other retcons that I think cause much more issues and damage like the 13 vs 7 instead of 1 pure lights and 1 pure darkness to forge the Xblade retcon. All I'm pointing out is, out of all the retcons and issues with the retcons, Nomura has the most room to play with this since he has always made and shown it to be that anything can grow a heart. There is a difference however between retcon and plothole and they aren't necessarily the same thing. It only becomes a true plothole if there is no given explanation to fill in the gaps per se .Therefore this particular retcon isn't exactly a plothole YET.

 

The Plot holes opens up more doors. You may have given your personal theory on how it works, it doesn't explain the possibilities that it unfolds. The Heart is now officially a virus. If someone gave anything a conscious it will inevitably grow a heart. And this isn't a problem if it was a different kind of Heart. For example: Roxas is connected to Sora, and Xion aswell. 

 

This retcon makes bigger issues. We havent received the complete answer. And until then, i see it as a plot hole. Axel in my eyes should of become his own person, not go back to being "lea" even if they retain memories. Special nobodies or not, the rule and problem applies to both. And special nobodies such as Namine and Roxas seemed like they were the exception NOT because they had hearts but because they were connected to the ones that were already active.

 

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

 

 

Data-Sora is hardly a major account as he lives within the rules of the Journal. As the journal explained that the "hearts" in the Journal are completely different from the Hearts in the real world. Repliku was still a being that followed the rules of Castle Oblivion. Xion was the exception, but not exactly confirmed that what she had was indeed a "heart". So no, suggesting that people "grow" a heart is completely different. Keep in mind that at this point you are confusing that having a heart, doesn't mean having a conscious or mind.

 

Data Sora is NOT any different. He grew a heart and bc of that Nomura can bring him back if he so chooses. If one can grow a heart they can be saved as  said in DDD. Repliku was a replica that became his own person( this has nothing to do with CO and everything to do with how he was made and the unforeseen issues of replicas becoming their own person with their own sense of self allowing them to grow their own hearts) and will and heart and that in itself made him a failed replica for the orgs usage. The same reason why Xion became a problem. It was even questioned by the other org members why Axel never reported this problem with replicas. Also a heart is directly tied to a mind and conscious .This is how Xehanort takes over his vessels hearts and therefore minds with his heart implanted in them ( eventually their entire existence)

 

Missing the bigger picture of what we're seeing. People are born with a Heart, a Body, and a Soul. Data-Sora, Repliku and Xion, don't exactly fall into this situation. 

 

Nomura says differently in DDD by saying if they grow their own heart they can be their own person . If anyone is missing the point here or maybe just ignoring it...

 

That's what Kingdom Hearts 2 confirmed. The reason why Nobodies can exist is because they came from strong hearts. One of the key evidence of having Hearts isn't personality, but missing something within themselves, one of the key things they were missing was feelings, but it was more to it than that as some reports in 358/2 days continues. The members sought out to gain back what they had lost, and had their own memories already. at that point, they should gain hearts instantly rather than "growing" one. 

 

This still has little to do with the fact  that as of DDD Nomura has changed this - thus why it's a retcon. Still also doesn't change the current direction of where this is heading. Also doesn't change the fact that the heart is formed with memories as well just like that previous interview by Nomura even said

 

It supports my main point. Of how bad it is. And i'm not even trying to change the direction its going. i'm fully aware of where its heading, and despite whether i like it or not, this is indeed a retcon to support a less than realistic purpose.

 

Once again where did I deny it's a retcon? I pointed out SEVERAL times. My point is that at least this retcon has some storyline basis to go by.

 

You explained absolutely NOTHING about that situation. Axel should of grown a heart with his new found experience. When defeated, he shouldn't have become "Lea" again, he should've been his own person by then. Special Nobodies or not, Roxas and Namine merged back within Sora and Kairi, and as the ending suggests are no longer "in torment" but because of new information such as 358/2 days and re:coded, they are still in torment. Namine for not being. That is a "retcon". 

 

I already pointed out that special nobodies like Roxas and Namine are diff scenarios. Also I did explain to you a feasible answer to how the process would go with normal regular nobodies based off what has already been given to us. I have explained what I thought happened SEVERAL times. Yet I have explained nothing you say? You have yet to give a good reason as to why that doesn't  work except to complain you don't like the retcon. No one is denying it's a retcon. I am saying out of all the retcons this one is the least concernable bc Nomura has always presented the idea of anything can grow a heart. This is explained in detail in DDD as well. Go rewatch the cutscenes. It is pretty well spelled out that Sora will be able to bring all these people back and WHY. Because they grew their own hearts. Again , this is what was explained over and over in DDD esp by Ansem the Wise and Xemnas. At this point you are just being argumentative because you don't like it.

 

What you thought, isn't what we know. And thats the problem. I dont want your opinion and act like its fact. You fail to udnerstand thats the very problem. 

 

Did I say it was fact? No. Matter of fact I said i gave you a rational answer based on what info is already given to deduce a probable solution. If there is a possible said solution then it's not retcon yet. You have yet to give any reason why this isn't possible.

 

Another Retcon, the problem with how Memories play an integral part of the story as it takes away from one suddenly isn't a problem anymore. Sora couldn't have awaken without Roxas merging back and giving the remaining memories, the same with Xion. those memories were integral to them "being". How Sora had to forget all the real memories in Castle Oblivion because they were linked with the fake ones Namine implanted. 

 

Sora was technically co- existing just fine until Namine screwed with his heart and memories. It wasn't until she had to fix what she did it became pertinent they all merge together. And this didn't account for them growing their own hearts. Once again here you are not accepting that DDD has shown us that all these people became their own person bc they grew their own heart- even a puppet aka Xion ..The same reason why Sora tells Roxas he was his own person. I couldn't care less if they bring back any of them but that doesn't make this any less true as i explained previously. It was explained in both Re:Coded and DDD that they were gonna be saved. DDD showed how. You conveniently keep ignoring this

 

No, i'm not forgetting these, its my main driving point of my argument. Re:coded is easy to dismiss. When Data-Sora was fighting Data-Sora's Heartless, it became its own being aswell, and Mickey (or Data Riku, dont remember) even explained how it worked.  

 

What does this have to do with the paragraph you are responding to? Also once again Nomura himself said ANYTHING can grow a heart EVEN DATA. Re:coded is valid bc it drives home the point they all need saved Once again ignoring the whole point of DDD as well. This does nothing for any point you think you are driving home. You need to go watch the DDD cutscenes again 

 

This thread is called "the biggest/worst retcons/plot holes" i'm labeling as both. Its obvious i don't like it. But theres more to it than just not liking it or not. Its the fact that it does indeed provide bigger issues. The idea of Nobodies who are specifically designed to not have hearts and being the other half of themselves seems to defeat the purpose. As a retcon, it was designed to make everyone have an unbelievable happy ending. This is equivalent to Twilight's Jacob imprinting on Bella's infant

 

I understand why you would find this unsatisfactory. I really do. I have voiced my own displeasure over other retcons that I think cause much more issues and damage like the 13 vs 7 instead of 1 pure lights and 1 pure darkness to forge the Xblade retcon. All I'm pointing out is, out of all the retcons and issues with the retcons, Nomura has the most room to play with this since he has always made and shown it to be that anything can grow a heart. There is a difference however between retcon and plothole and they aren't necessarily the same thing. It only becomes a true plothole if there is no given explanation to fill in the gaps per se .Therefore this particular retcon isn't exactly a plothole YET.

 

The Plot holes opens up more doors. You may have given your personal theory on how it works, it doesn't explain the possibilities that it unfolds. The Heart is now officially a virus. If someone gave anything a conscious it will inevitably grow a heart. And this isn't a problem if it was a different kind of Heart. For example: Roxas is connected to Sora, and Xion aswell. 

Still ignoring the fact that there is room for Nomura to work with this retcon and it still not be a plothole

 

This retcon makes bigger issues. We havent received the complete answer. And until then, i see it as a plot hole. Axel in my eyes should of become his own person, not go back to being "lea" even if they retain memories. Special nobodies or not, the rule and problem applies to both. And special nobodies such as Namine and Roxas seemed like they were the exception NOT because they had hearts but because they were connected to the ones that were already active.

 

And we have KH3 to still get that complete answer so therefore until then it's still not a plothole. We have not been given a complete answer.Also Roxas and namine were exceptions bc one was a nobody formed with a dormant heart hiding in it and it affected him down to even his appearance and eventual ability to dual wield bc of Ven's heart. He was born a zombie with no memories of his previous life as Sora nor was Ven's heart awake to provide Ven's memories..Namine being created without a body and soul like usual nobodies by a PoH with no darkness and Soras body as her darkness makes her an anomoly.. If the rules of regular nobodies didn't apply to them then why would it apply to them now?

 

 

Edited August 4, 2015 by Flaming Lea

[Ephemera 37]

Like i said....my points are valid.....the problem still occurs with what can happen. not what we know so far. what we dont know doesn't do much, and i doubt Kingdom Hearts 3 will explain the hypothetical situation when one gains a heart after becoming a normal nobody. 

 

The problem here is that this RETCON, indeed causes more questions (plural not singular) that aren't properly being answered. I'm ignoring theories. i'm ignoring what you consider possible to cover up the pandora box that has been opened. 

Edited August 4, 2015 by Ephemera

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Like i said....my points are valid.....the problem still occurs with what can happen. not what we know so far. what we dont know doesn't do much, and i doubt Kingdom Hearts 3 will explain the hypothetical situation when one gains a heart after becoming a normal nobody. 

 I will disagree since you like to ignore my points over and over while repeating its a retcon. We know it's a retcon. But thanks to how Nomura set this up he can get away with it bc there are concepts and plot details throughout the series that allow this retcon to still work. He writes as he goes and leaves concepts open for this reason. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't ( Time travel ugh) There are other retcons than do worse damage to the plot imho. Because he writes a lot as he goes there will be continuity issues in some areas.Also since the story isn't done yet you can't say it won't be explained.You are assuming. Like I said, you don't have to like it. I don't even like some of the plot issues myself.

[Ephemera 37]

 I will disagree since you like to ignore my points over and over while repeating its a retcon. We know it's a retcon. But thanks to how Nomura set this up he can get away with it bc there are concepts and plot details throughout the series that allow this retcon to still work. He writes as he goes and leaves concepts open for this reason. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't ( Time travel ugh) There are other retcons than do worse damage to the plot imho. Because he writes a lot as he goes there will be continuity issues in some areas.Also since the story isn't done yet you can't say it won't be explained.You are assuming. Like I said, you don't have to like it. I don't even like some of the plot issues myself.

So what happens when a normal NObody grows a full-blown heart. how will it be conceivable for the two to be?

 

This is a problem specifically for "Nobodies", not special Nobodies such as Namine (who is only a Nobody in name), Xion and Repliku (who are artificially created, therefore they may have had artificial hearts to begin with), and so on. Axel is a prime example of this. 

Edited August 4, 2015 by Ephemera

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

So what happens when a normal NObody grows a full-blown heart. how will it be conceivable for the two to be?

 

So you are once again asking me for my opinion on this then when i give you one you claim you don't want it bc it's just my opinion? 

 

Anyways as i stated I think it would merge with the original for the exact same reasons. It's based off the same body and soul and memories of said nobody It's just an accumulation of new memories,experiences, and emotions from that time period in their life. When Lea revived he still remembered everything during his time as a nobody bc he's still the same person as Axel just now with his original heart back plus whatever new memories and experiences he had as Axel adding on to it...Of course special nobodies are a diff case though like previously mentioned.

[The 13th Kenpachi 4,279]

I wake up to like 30 notifications and get all excited... Then I view them and it's just everyone arguing

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

I wake up to like 30 notifications and get all excited... Then I view them and it's just everyone arguing

It's called debating and that's how you discuss things. Said topic is controversial what do you expect?

[The 13th Kenpachi 4,279]

It's called debating and that's how you discuss things. Said topic is controversial what do you expect?

 

 

Lemme read all the pages then i'll return

[Ephemera 37]

So you are once again asking me for my opinion on this then when i give you one you claim you don't want it bc it's just my opinion? 

 

Anyways as i stated I think it would merge with the original for the exact same reasons. It's based off the same body and soul and memories of said nobody It's just an accumulation of new memories,experiences, and emotions from that time period in their life. When Lea revived he still remembered everything during his time as a nobody bc he's still the same person as Axel just now with his original heart back plus whatever new memories and experiences he had as Axel adding on to it...Of course special nobodies are a diff case though like previously mentioned.

How can you not see that as an issue? How can Roxas and Sora not merge back? What about Namine and Kairi, they did it. Whats the point of making a reason to bring people back if theres not really a reason. 

[Exiblade7 1,917]

How can you not see that as an issue? How can Roxas and Sora not merge back? What about Namine and Kairi, they did it. Whats the point of making a reason to bring people back if theres not really a reason. 

There is a reason why Sora has to bring them back. It's because they are hurting. 

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

How can you not see that as an issue? How can Roxas and Sora not merge back? What about Namine and Kairi, they did it. Whats the point of making a reason to bring people back if theres not really a reason. 

 

 Actually both examples merged together. It's just that they also brought their own grown hearts with them to the party. The hearts they grew that are now inside both Kairi and Sora can be used to bring them back. That's what Ansem the Wises data is suppose to help Sora do thus the whole point of the DDD ending explaining this.That's why Ansem said the data could be used to bring back fallen comrades while showcasing Xion, Ven, Roxas, and Namine in that scene. Ansem the Wise wrote that hidden data to make up for how he mistreated the existence of these characters since they did nothing to deserve their pain.

 

I don't see this as an issue bc compared to other more screwed up retcons this isn't a big deal to me since it makes sense with what we are already given.

[Ephemera 37]

There is a reason why Sora has to bring them back. It's because they are hurting. 

Once again, you fail to see the bigger picture. 

 

Terra, Aqua, Ventus are reasonable. Their torment didn't need any "retcon" to do it. They were the original Trio that their lives were ruined by Master Xehanort. 

 

Roxas and Namine ended quite well in the series, especially Kingdom Hearts 2. They didn't show a single sign of sadness....they accepted their role and merged back, and "live on" within Sora. Their torment was "retconned". Then we have Xion....who is a character who never needed to exist in the first place and only made the series unnecessarily complicated. 

 Actually both examples merged together. It's just that they also brought their own grown hearts with them to the party. The hearts they grew that are now inside both Kairi and Sora can be used to bring them back. That's what Ansem the Wises data is suppose to help Sora do thus the whole point of the DDD ending explaining this.That's why Ansem said the data could be used to bring back fallen comrades while showcasing Xion, Ven, Roxas, and Namine in that scene. Ansem the Wise wrote that hidden data to make up for how he mistreated the existence of these characters since they did nothing to deserve their pain.

 

I don't see this as an issue bc compared to other more screwed up retcons this isn't a big deal to me since it makes sense with what we are already given.

Honestly. to me, this is the WORST one. it just makes the seris look that much worst. 

 

Ansem the Wisedata relies heavily on how the mechanics of SOra's heart works. 

[Exiblade7 1,917]

Once again, you fail to see the bigger picture. 

 

Terra, Aqua, Ventus are reasonable. Their torment didn't need any "retcon" to do it. They were the original Trio that their lives were ruined by Master Xehanort. 

 

Roxas and Namine ended quite well in the series, especially Kingdom Hearts 2. They didn't show a single sign of sadness....they accepted their role and merged back, and "live on" within Sora. Their torment was "retconned". Then we have Xion....who is a character who never needed to exist in the first place and only made the series unnecessarily complicated. 

Honestly. to me, this is the WORST one. it just makes the seris look that much worst. 

 

Ansem the Wisedata relies heavily on how the mechanics of SOra's heart works. 

Roxas, Xion, and namine are hurting because they don't really exist anymore and want to come back and honestly, I don't think the series is THAT complicated. 

Edited August 5, 2015 by Kaito Daimon

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

Once again, you fail to see the bigger picture. 

 

Terra, Aqua, Ventus are reasonable. Their torment didn't need any "retcon" to do it. They were the original Trio that their lives were ruined by Master Xehanort. 

 

Roxas and Namine ended quite well in the series, especially Kingdom Hearts 2. They didn't show a single sign of sadness....they accepted their role and merged back, and "live on" within Sora. Their torment was "retconned". Then we have Xion....who is a character who never needed to exist in the first place and only made the series unnecessarily complicated. 

Honestly. to me, this is the WORST one. it just makes the seris look that much worst. 

 

Ansem the Wisedata relies heavily on how the mechanics of SOra's heart works. 

It sounds like you're making this bigger a retcon then it actually is because you simply don't like the direction it's going. It actually is one of the retcons in DDD that has some previously established development considering that everything has a heart has been one of the main themes of the entire series.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Once again, you fail to see the bigger picture. 

 

Terra, Aqua, Ventus are reasonable. Their torment didn't need any "retcon" to do it. They were the original Trio that their lives were ruined by Master Xehanort. 

 

Roxas and Namine ended quite well in the series, especially Kingdom Hearts 2. They didn't show a single sign of sadness....they accepted their role and merged back, and "live on" within Sora. Their torment was "retconned". Then we have Xion....who is a character who never needed to exist in the first place and only made the series unnecessarily complicated. 

Honestly. to me, this is the WORST one. it just makes the seris look that much worst. 

 

Ansem the Wisedata relies heavily on how the mechanics of SOra's heart works. 

 Roxas seemed pretty upset about it to me. Even in DDD he displayed sadness until Sora told him he deserved to exist. Namine had pretty much become resigned to her fate under DiZ's influence. He made it clear she shouldn't exist. That data helps Ansem/DiZ fix this mistake he made with them. 

 

Just because you think it's the worst retcon doesn't mean I have to feel the same way about it. It just seems to me you really dislike that they can be brought back.

[AwesomeKHfan 1,250]

When Sora woke up in KH2 in the Mansion did he not see Ansems computer?

 

Mickey: there

 

Sora: we found it

 

Was he so tired or did Ansem something, look there is only one way out so Sora couldn't miss that and don't forget Donald and Goofy

Edited August 6, 2015 by AwesomeKHfan

[Smithee 327]

Terra, Aqua, Ventus are reasonable. Their torment didn't need any "retcon" to do it. They were the original Trio that their lives were ruined by Master Xehanort.

 

But sadly, DDD only seemed too eager to just make it worse---the illusion scene where Terra and Aqua left Ven in despair, the fact that now they'll most likely return feeling like s*** for failing to even hinder MX's master plan (even helping it along), Ven's Armor being useless to Sora (thus giving Ven yet another Butt Monkey moment just to make MX's Darkness even more of a Villain Sue force), etc.

 

Just... firetruck that game.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Alan Smithee

[Ephemera 37]

 Roxas seemed pretty upset about it to me. Even in DDD he displayed sadness until Sora told him he deserved to exist. Namine had pretty much become resigned to her fate under DiZ's influence. He made it clear she shouldn't exist. That data helps Ansem/DiZ fix this mistake he made with them. 

 

Just because you think it's the worst retcon doesn't mean I have to feel the same way about it. It just seems to me you really dislike that they can be brought back.

Roxas being upset in DDD is a problem with the retcon. You're not understanding that this is the problem. SO if you want to confirm that. Then perhaps the X-blade isn't so bad of a retcon either if we're going to reference the same game. 

 

 

Still, the bigger issue is how the growing of a heart begins. For characters such as Data-anything, Xion (i suppose) and others, they reside within their own rules. Xion isn't a being that wasn't born without a heart. She was a replica designed to have memories. Now they didn't think she would grow a conscious but growing a heart is completely different. 

 

My biggest problem with the retcon of growing hearts is the purpose behind it. X-blade retcon is more of trying too hard to not spoil what kh3 is to the point that it looks like a problem. Now, the problem with Sora saving everyone is not the outcome of "needing this for the sake of story". this is because SE made the mistake of making side stories too relevant to the point that they have to give all these characters a happy ending. 

 

Terra, Aqua, Ventus are characters that can easily be brought back, and are too relevant. But then there are characters like Namine, Roxas, Axel who are coming back for fandom's sake. While Xion, and Data-Sora are coming back for barely meeting the threshold of relevancy. 

[hatok 6,413]

the growing hearts (or at least secretly having hearts) thing has been built up for such a long time

 

I find it funny how people have gone from saying that it makes no sense that Nobodies express emotions like they do, to saying it makes no sense that Nobodies can have hearts

[Ephemera 37]

the growing hearts (or at least secretly having hearts) thing has been built up for such a long time

 

I find it funny how people have gone from saying that it makes no sense that Nobodies express emotions like they do, to saying it makes no sense that Nobodies can have hearts

"growing" a heart isn't the same as always having one inside them. So no, "Growing" a heart has never been built up. Nobodies having a heart? Yes. its been said multiple times, but for two key characters: Axel and Roxas. 

 

Now keep in mind, when Nobodies were introduced, they we were told something completely different. This is what Yen Sid had to say.

 

"If one such as you, Donald, yields to the darkness in their heart, they too will become a Heartless. But you know this. The Heartless are always lurking and ever seeking to capture new hearts. Never let your guard down! Now then...At times, if someone with a strong heart and will---be they evil or good---becomes a Heartless, the empty shell they leave behind begins to act with a will of its own. An empty vessel whose heart has been stolen away... A spirit that goes on even as its body fades from existence---for you see, Nobodies do not truly exist at all. Nobodies may seem to have feelings, but this is a ruse---they only pretend to have hearts. You must not be deceived!"

 

This explanation also coincides with how Lingering Will's act. Despite being just a suit of armor, was able to move. As they begin to have a "will" of their own. But still no heart inside it. Roxas was a clear and easy one to understand. He actually had a heart inside him. It wasn't active, but it was enough to affect his appearance. Another thing to note with Axel he confirms he only feels like he has a heart when he's around Roxas and Sora. 

 

"I wanted to see Roxas. He... was the only one I liked... He made me feel... like I had a heart. It's kind of... funny... You make me feel... the same... Kairi's in the castle dungeon. Now go."

 

But "growing" a heart? never been confirmed. 

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Roxas being upset in DDD is a problem with the retcon. You're not understanding that this is the problem. SO if you want to confirm that. Then perhaps the X-blade isn't so bad of a retcon either if we're going to reference the same game. 

 

 

Still, the bigger issue is how the growing of a heart begins. For characters such as Data-anything, Xion (i suppose) and others, they reside within their own rules. Xion isn't a being that wasn't born without a heart. She was a replica designed to have memories. Now they didn't think she would grow a conscious but growing a heart is completely different. 

 

My biggest problem with the retcon of growing hearts is the purpose behind it. X-blade retcon is more of trying too hard to not spoil what kh3 is to the point that it looks like a problem. Now, the problem with Sora saving everyone is not the outcome of "needing this for the sake of story". this is because SE made the mistake of making side stories too relevant to the point that they have to give all these characters a happy ending. 

 

Terra, Aqua, Ventus are characters that can easily be brought back, and are too relevant. But then there are characters like Namine, Roxas, Axel who are coming back for fandom's sake. While Xion, and Data-Sora are coming back for barely meeting the threshold of relevancy. 

  Ephemera I don't care if you think this is a bigger retcon than the Xblade retcon. That's your opinion and I have mine and that's been argued with us back and forth. You aren't gonna change my opinion and vise versa. The Xblade retcon served to extend the storyline further in a different direction that also gave way to another horrible plot device -Time Travel. I don't like anything about it .But I can accept others might. Not to mention you are only arguing against it now bc I won't agree with you about the growing of hearts and I mentioned it was the worse retcon. You wholeheartedly agreed before it was a retcon and a problem lol

 

You need to accept that others might not agree with you and that's ok. I have told you why I feel the way I do and I'm not arguing in circles with you.

 

There are several issues with what you just said like with Xion but it won't matter bc you ignore my points so I'm not gonna bother.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Flaming Lea

[Wyatt Tyson 66]

Eph

 

"growing" a heart isn't the same as always having one inside them. So no, "Growing" a heart has never been built up. Nobodies having a heart? Yes. its been said multiple times, but for two key characters: Axel and Roxas. 

 

Now keep in mind, when Nobodies were introduced, they we were told something completely different. This is what Yen Sid had to say.

 

"If one such as you, Donald, yields to the darkness in their heart, they too will become a Heartless. But you know this. The Heartless are always lurking and ever seeking to capture new hearts. Never let your guard down! Now then...At times, if someone with a strong heart and will---be they evil or good---becomes a Heartless, the empty shell they leave behind begins to act with a will of its own. An empty vessel whose heart has been stolen away... A spirit that goes on even as its body fades from existence---for you see, Nobodies do not truly exist at all. Nobodies may seem to have feelings, but this is a ruse---they only pretend to have hearts. You must not be deceived!"

 

This explanation also coincides with how Lingering Will's act. Despite being just a suit of armor, was able to move. As they begin to have a "will" of their own. But still no heart inside it. Roxas was a clear and easy one to understand. He actually had a heart inside him. It wasn't active, but it was enough to affect his appearance. Another thing to note with Axel he confirms he only feels like he has a heart when he's around Roxas and Sora. 

 

"I wanted to see Roxas. He... was the only one I liked... He made me feel... like I had a heart. It's kind of... funny... You make me feel... the same... Kairi's in the castle dungeon. Now go."

 

But "growing" a heart? never been confirmed. 

 

 

 

.........................But it's been hinted on since KH2 FM. I mean Axel even says as much himself in his final conversation with Roxas. It can't be really be considered a "retcon" if the clues and implications were already there.

[Ephemera 37]

Eph

 

 

 

 

.........................But it's been hinted on since KH2 FM. I mean Axel even says as much himself in his final conversation with Roxas. It can't be really be considered a "retcon" if the clues and implications were already there.

 

No, there was no hints that you "grow" hearts. It has always been suggested that they've "had" hearts within them, btu the means of obtaining it was never clear. And if you follow everything (even most of dream drop distance) up until Data-Ansem the Wise, its heavily suggested Master ehanort implanted a piece of his heart to grow, but not exactly that the heart would grow on its own from memories. And It is a retcon if you follow the mechanics of a Nobody.