The biggest/worst plot holes /retcons

[Ephemera 37]

thanks, but not thanks. I'm just going to use my opinion to judge whether or not the story in the kh series is good or not. I see what you're trying to say though, like I said before, if kh3 answers all of the questions that we fans have (which I kinda doubt for some strange reason), the convolutedness of the series should start to loosen up; therefore making it easier to understand. 

The definition of Convoluted is complex and difficult to follow. So if we get more answers, it doesn't change the fact that at this point its already convoluted. there's no turning back on what was already placed. 

 

@Flaming_Lea

 

that explaination nomura gave just seals the fact that the series has gone to convoluted and plot holes and has to try so hard to explain bigger problems.

[Exiblade7 1,917]

The definition of Convoluted is complex and difficult to follow. So if we get more answers, it doesn't change the fact that at this point its already convoluted. there's no turning back on what was already placed. 

 

@Flaming_Lea

 

that explaination nomura gave just seals the fact that the series has gone to convoluted and plot holes and has to try so hard to explain bigger problems.

I do believe that some of the plot holes CAN be answered somehow especially with your # 1 plothole. I can see the charaters in kh3 explaining why there is a true organization 13 and why they decided to do that. 

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

The definition of Convoluted is complex and difficult to follow. So if we get more answers, it doesn't change the fact that at this point its already convoluted. there's no turning back on what was already placed. 

 

@Flaming_Lea

 

that explaination nomura gave just seals the fact that the series has gone to convoluted and plot holes and has to try so hard to explain bigger problems.

 

Which explanation are you referring to?  Regardless, one of the series biggest problems is a lot of the explanations to major plot points are given in interviews instead of being given in game like it should be. Some stuff is presented but not enough to give a proper picture.

[Ephemera 37]

I do believe that some of the plot holes CAN be answered somehow especially with your # 1 plothole. I can see the charaters in kh3 explaining why there is a true organization 13 and why they decided to do that. 

 

#1 should've been explained in Kingdom Hearts 3D. 

 

THe problem is that just because there's an answer for everything, doesn't make it good. doesn't make it a valid reason to do all of what has been. 

 

For example: There was a reason for Xion being made into existence...doesn't mean Xion was a good character.

[Exiblade7 1,917]

#1 should've been explained in Kingdom Hearts 3D. 

 

THe problem is that just because there's an answer for everything, doesn't make it good. doesn't make it a valid reason to do all of what has been. 

 

For example: There was a reason for Xion being made into existence...doesn't mean Xion was a good character.

actually it's an opinion that Xion isn't a good character.

[Ephemera 37]

actually it's an opinion that Xion isn't a good character.

Xion isn't a good character based on the fact that she is recycled from multiple aspects from the series only tso she can be relevant in one game to explain a certain time. She has absolutely no hope of coming back,a nd trying to bring her back would result i n more bad writing.

[Exiblade7 1,917]

Xion isn't a good character based on the fact that she is recycled from multiple aspects from the series only tso she can be relevant in one game to explain a certain time. She has absolutely no hope of coming back,a nd trying to bring her back would result i n more bad writing.

I think she is a good character because she made the story in 358/2 days so interesting. I probably wouldn't have played and finished the game if she didn't have her distinct personality. 

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Xion isn't a good character based on the fact that she is recycled from multiple aspects from the series only tso she can be relevant in one game to explain a certain time. She has absolutely no hope of coming back,a nd trying to bring her back would result i n more bad writing.

 

Thing is, everything has been set up to bring her back whether you like her or not.. DDD really brings this home.

[Ephemera 37]

 

I think she is a good character because she made the story in 358/2 days so interesting. I probably wouldn't have played and finished the game if she didn't have her distinct personality. 

OK Kaito Daimon. At some level, you know there's more to it than that. Open your eyes. 

 

Xion's personality was really just how Sora saw Kairi. And in the end, she fell for the mopey, running away and coming back syndrome. 

Thing is, everything has been set up to bring her back whether you like her or not.. DDD really brings this home.

 

She was brought back in the sense that Sora accepts her in her heart. 

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

 

 

OK Kaito Daimon. At some level, you know there's more to it than that. Open your eyes. 

 

Xion's personality was really just how Sora saw Kairi. And in the end, she fell for the mopey, running away and coming back syndrome. 

 

She was brought back in the sense that Sora accepts her in her heart. 

 

 

No I mean they were talking about how even puppets grow hearts and how Sora has the ability to bring those lost friends back. ( ansem's hidden data shall assist) The scene with Ansem the Wise in the end shows what I mean. Also, Xion is a very polarizing character. There are those who either love her or hate her. You will see that here a lot.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Flaming Lea

[Ephemera 37]

No I mean they were talking about how even puppets grow hearts and how Sora has the ability to bring those lost friends back. ( ansem's hidden data shall assist) The scene with Ansem the Wise in the end shows what I mean. Also, Xion is a very polarizing character. There are those who either love her or hate her. You will see that here a lot.

i think those who love her, should know what a gimmicky character she really is (don't get me started on Aqua). 

 

Ansems' hidden data will be what? The other plot hole is how he's going to bring "EVERYONE" back when each person has their own circumstances. if one "grows" a heart. then the heart is more of a virus. Think about Organization 13....they are nobodies and if they "grow" a heart, what happens to their original? The problem with "growing" a heart is a problem.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

i think those who love her, should know what a gimmicky character she really is (don't get me started on Aqua). 

 

Ansems' hidden data will be what? The other plot hole is how he's going to bring "EVERYONE" back when each person has their own circumstances. if one "grows" a heart. then the heart is more of a virus. Think about Organization 13....they are nobodies and if they "grow" a heart, what happens to their original? The problem with "growing" a heart is a problem.

It doesn't matter what the circumstances are. It matters only that they grew a heart. Once a heart is grown the door for a return is more than possible and more than likely as long as Sora sees them as real then they can return. ( that Ansem scene explains this)

 

Since a heart is made from memories and experiences one could say these new grown hearts are merged in with the original heart.( in a normal nobody circumstance not special nobodies) This is one of the reasons why Lea remembers his life as Axel.  

Edited August 1, 2015 by Flaming Lea

[Ephemera 37]

It doesn't matter what the circumstances are. It matters only that they grew a heart. Once a heart is grown the door for a return is more than possible and more than likely as long as Sora sees them as real then they can return. ( that Ansem scene explains this)

 

Since a heart is made from memories and experiences one could say these new grown hearts are merged in with the original heart.( in a normal nobody circumstance not special nobodies) This is why Lea remembers his life as Axel.  

Which causes issues....this is a plot hole. THe heart is made up of memories, light, and darkness. 

[Exiblade7 1,917]

Which causes issues....this is a plot hole. THe heart is made up of memories, light, and darkness. 

once a heart is created(Roxas' case in particular), it WILL have the three things you've mentioned because all hearts have light and darkness. 

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Which causes issues....this is a plot hole. THe heart is made up of memories, light, and darkness. 

 

Not a plothole. ( not his time ) The heart is made up of memories, emotions, and experiences. There is light and dark in all hearts but it's not necessarily made of that.

[Ephemera 37]

Not a plothole. ( not his time ) The heart is made up of memories, emotions, and experiences. There is light and dark in all hearts but it's not necessarily made of that.

It most certainly is if you see that in KH2 it was confirmed that nobodies can indeed have no heart and still retian memories. its the lack of emotions that was proof that they had no heart. but still, the problem of growing hearts is more like a virus than a proper entity.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

It most certainly is if you see that in KH2 it was confirmed that nobodies can indeed have no heart and still retian memories. its the lack of emotions that was proof that they had no heart. but still, the problem of growing hearts is more like a virus than a proper entity.

 

All regular nobodies are born with memories. That has nothing to do with the fact that hearts also are made of memories. Example. bc Ven's heart was sleeping and dormant Roxas didn't have any of his memories. He also didn't have Sora's bc Sora himself existed as a literal walking heart and retained most of his memories and consciousness. That's why Roxas was born a "zombie"

[Ephemera 37]

All regular nobodies are born with memories. That has nothing to do with the fact that hearts also are made of memories. Example. bc Ven's heart was sleeping and dormant Roxas didn't have any of his memories. He also didn't have Sora's bc Sora himself existed as a literal walking heart and retained most of his memories and consciousness. That's why Roxas was born a "zombie"

 

Before Kingdom Hearts 3D, we knew that memories, although part of what makes up a heart (Haloween town kh1), it has been proven that memories alone wasn't what made up a heart. 

 

But the problem is the mechanics of the heart (After Dream Drop distance), before, we knew a heart made up of light, darkness, and darkness and emotions. Which is why unversed were negative emotions and darkness. 

 

Up until Dream Drop Distance, now hearts can come out of existence through memories (which means, light, darkness, emotions). but this means any person can "be" just by being created. We've seen multiple times in Organization.

 

This is a problem. anyone can have a heart once born. Even nobodies. which begs the question where can the original heart go? Organization 13, once defeated, what will happen with the original heart or the new heart? Its a plot hole.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Before Kingdom Hearts 3D, we knew that memories, although part of what makes up a heart (Haloween town kh1), it has been proven that memories alone wasn't what made up a heart. 

 

But the problem is the mechanics of the heart (After Dream Drop distance), before, we knew a heart made up of light, darkness, and darkness and emotions. Which is why unversed were negative emotions and darkness. 

 

Up until Dream Drop Distance, now hearts can come out of existence through memories (which means, light, darkness, emotions). but this means any person can "be" just by being created. We've seen multiple times in Organization.

 

This is a problem. anyone can have a heart once born. Even nobodies. which begs the question where can the original heart go? Organization 13, once defeated, what will happen with the original heart or the new heart? Its a plot hole.

 

I already pointed out a heart is made of more than just memories..It's also made of emotions and experiences and yes it has light and darkness. I already stated this

 

It has always been demonstrated that anything can grow a heart.. Look at Repliku. Even Data can in Re: Coded...If they can develop their own memories and experiences and through that emotions they can grow a heart.

 

In nobodies they revive with their original heart. We can surmise their newly budding hearts just merged in with them. This isn't a plothole per se just bc it hasn't been explained. There is still KH3 for this. 

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

Before Kingdom Hearts 3D, we knew that memories, although part of what makes up a heart (Haloween town kh1), it has been proven that memories alone wasn't what made up a heart. 

 

But the problem is the mechanics of the heart (After Dream Drop distance), before, we knew a heart made up of light, darkness, and darkness and emotions. Which is why unversed were negative emotions and darkness. 

 

Up until Dream Drop Distance, now hearts can come out of existence through memories (which means, light, darkness, emotions). but this means any person can "be" just by being created. We've seen multiple times in Organization.

th

This is a problem. anyone can have a heart once born. Even nobodies. which begs the question where can the original heart go? Organization 13, once defeated, what will happen with the original heart or the new heart? Its a plot hole.

 

 

 

No the memories and experiences that each person has are the key components of what makes up a heart. These are the key components of ones identity. Even Xemnas elaborates on the correlation between the memories and the heart. Nomura even confirms this in interviews.

 

 What is the definition of a heart in Kingdom Hearts?

Nomura: It is the theme of the series. To explain it simply, a person has a body, a soul, and a heart. As an image, the soul is the life source, without it a person would be dead. Since the heart doesn’t have a form, memories play an important part in forming a heart. Also, the heart isn’t limited to people, but to all things. I tried to explain this concept to Disney, and they merely said that it must be an Eastern way of thinking. It may be interesting how overseas players think of it.

 

 

 

I already pointed out a heart is made of more than just memories..It's also made of emotions and experiences and yes it has light and darkness. I already stated this 

 

It has always been demonstrated that anything can grow a heart.. Look at Repliku. Even Data can in Re: Coded...If they can develop their own memories and experiences and through that emotions they can grow a heart.

 

In nobodies they revive with their original heart. We can surmise their newly budding hearts just merged in with them. This isn't a plothole per se just bc it hasn't been explained. There is still KH3 for this. 

 

 

This also.

Edited August 2, 2015 by RobbyRobRob the Wise

[Ephemera 37]

 

It doesn't matter what the circumstances are. It matters only that they grew a heart. Once a heart is grown the door for a return is more than possible and more than likely as long as Sora sees them as real then they can return. ( that Ansem scene explains this)

 

Since a heart is made from memories and experiences one could say these new grown hearts are merged in with the original heart.( in a normal nobody circumstance not special nobodies) This is one of the reasons why Lea remembers his life as Axel.  

It matters in my book. and if you will disregard it, you will ignore why it is a plot hole in the first place. it creates bigger issues. This allows Ventus, Roxas, and SOra all to exist at the same time all while being three separate people. 

 

The problem with that is that what is the point of one claiming to have a body and a soul? THis means every character who has ever existed technically has a heart. And no, i mean "every" character. Organization 13. 

No the memories and experiences that each person has are the key components of what makes up a heart. These are the key components of ones identity. Even Xemnas elaborates on the correlation between the memories and the heart. Nomura even confirms this in interviews.

 

 What is the definition of a heart in Kingdom Hearts?

Nomura: It is the theme of the series. To explain it simply, a person has a body, a soul, and a heart. As an image, the soul is the life source, without it a person would be dead. Since the heart doesn’t have a form, memories play an important part in forming a heart. Also, the heart isn’t limited to people, but to all things. I tried to explain this concept to Disney, and they merely said that it must be an Eastern way of thinking. It may be interesting how overseas players think of it.

 

 

 

 

 

This also.

YOu're missing the point of what makes it a plot hole. Regardless whats confirmed, it creates a bigger issue. 

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

 

 

It matters in my book. and if you will disregard it, you will ignore why it is a plot hole in the first place. it creates bigger issues. This allows Ventus, Roxas, and SOra all to exist at the same time all while being three separate people. 

 

The problem with that is that what is the point of one claiming to have a body and a soul? THis means every character who has ever existed technically has a heart. And no, i mean "every" character. Organization 13. 

YOu're missing the point of what makes it a plot hole. Regardless whats confirmed, it creates a bigger issue. 

 

 Welp. That's the whole point. This game has set up EVERYONE to come to back if Nomura so chooses. You don't have to like it. I'm just letting you know that it's possible and more than likely all of them are coming back..Out of all the retcons in this series to argue, the nobodies growing hearts is the most easily acceptable bc it always been presented ANYTHING can grow a heart. There are other retcons that create much larger issues than this one.

[Ephemera 37]

 Welp. That's the whole point. This game has set up EVERYONE to come to back if Nomura so chooses. You don't have to like it. I'm just letting you know that it's possible and more than likely all of them are coming back..Out of all the retcons in this series to argue, the nobodies growing hearts is the most easily acceptable bc it always been presented ANYTHING can grow a heart. There are other retcons that create much larger issues than this one.

 

That has never been suggested. For example: when are we going to see Repliku? We wont, and the reason why is fairly simple. i don't like it, but its because the biggest plot holes in the series. Nobodies "growing" hearts is a PROBLEM. Axel became a relevant character, but not Lea. Think about the bigger issue here. 

 

How will we see all these characters coexist? Also think about how things can come up. Nobodies are beings of Nothing at all. No light, no darkness, no emotions (but can simulate emotions). From what we knew, Nobodies exist by being the Soul and Body. They  are what is described as an empty shell. If Memories give "form" to the heart, that would make sense why they can be called empty shells. But the problem occurs when they "Grow" a heart. That means someone can throw their memories over and over until the heart comes. 

 

Lets look at Larxene, Demyx and Vexen, clearly these showed the most emotion out of all the members. So they grew their own heart? When they do, and their original heart is freed, then what happens? Will they become twins and coexist? 

 

This is a bigger plot hole then people let on. AND like i said before, jst because there's an answer to how its possible, doesn't mean it isn't a plot hole. It still opens up a bigger load of questions. Questiosn no one seems to ask.

 

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

That has never been suggested. For example: when are we going to see Repliku? We wont, and the reason why is fairly simple. i don't like it, but its because the biggest plot holes in the series. Nobodies "growing" hearts is a PROBLEM. Axel became a relevant character, but not Lea. Think about the bigger issue here. 

 

How will we see all these characters coexist? Also think about how things can come up. Nobodies are beings of Nothing at all. No light, no darkness, no emotions (but can simulate emotions). From what we knew, Nobodies exist by being the Soul and Body. They  are what is described as an empty shell. If Memories give "form" to the heart, that would make sense why they can be called empty shells. But the problem occurs when they "Grow" a heart. That means someone can throw their memories over and over until the heart comes. 

 

Lets look at Larxene, Demyx and Vexen, clearly these showed the most emotion out of all the members. So they grew their own heart? When they do, and their original heart is freed, then what happens? Will they become twins and coexist? 

 

This is a bigger plot hole then people let on. AND like i said before, jst because there's an answer to how its possible, doesn't mean it isn't a plot hole. It still opens up a bigger load of questions. Questiosn no one seems to ask.

What has never been suggested? That anything can grow a heart? Yes it indeed has. The heart is one of the main themes of the Xehanort Saga and he has constantly shown examples( like Data Sora and Repliku and Xion growing hearts and bc of that wills of their own.) How Nomura chooses to write them co-existing isn't my problem, or even my choice or yours in fact. Point is he has definitely set the game up to bring back any character he so chooses, whether you like it or not. Repliku included. Also I have already suggested a feasible answer to what would happen if nobodies grew new hearts and they revived with their former original hearts. Let's not go in circles. Axel revived as Lea and he is more than relevant. A regular revived nobody is the same being revived just with their original heart returned. They still have all their memories and experiences as a nobody still. This isn't a forgotten or irrelevant part of their lives. Special nobodies have different circumstances like I explained previously.

 

Like I said, there are much bigger retcons that cause much more issues than this one. And if something can be explained based off given information then it's not necessarily a plothole either. Seems to me that you just don't like the given direction of the story and don't want to accept that it's going that way. Again you don't have to like it or agree with it. But it still doesn't make it any less true.

 

I am not gonna go in circles with it btw. Take it up with Nomura if you are so dissatisfied.

[Ephemera 37]

What has never been suggested? That anything can grow a heart? Yes it indeed has. The heart is one of the main themes of the Xehanort Saga and he has constantly shown examples( like Data Sora and Repliku and Xion growing hearts and bc of that wills of their own.) How Nomura chooses to write them co-existing isn't my problem, or even my choice or yours in fact. Point is he has definitely set the game up to bring back any character he so chooses, whether you like it or not. Repliku included. Also I have already suggested a feasible answer to what would happen if nobodies grew new hearts and they revived with their former original hearts. Let's not go in circles. Axel revived as Lea and he is more than relevant. A regular revived nobody is the same being revived just with their original heart returned. They still have all their memories and experiences as a nobody still. This isn't a forgotten or irrelevant part of their lives. Special nobodies have different circumstances like I explained previously.

 

Like I said, there are much bigger retcons that cause much more issues than this one. And if something can be explained based off given information then it's not necessarily a plothole either. Seems to me that you just don't like the given direction of the story and don't want to accept that it's going that way. Again you don't have to like it or agree with it. But it still doesn't make it any less true.

 

I am not gonna go in circles with it btw. Take it up with Nomura if you are so dissatisfied.

 

Data-Sora is hardly a major account as he lives within the rules of the Journal. As the journal explained that the "hearts" in the Journal are completely different from the Hearts in the real world. Repliku was still a being that followed the rules of Castle Oblivion. Xion was the exception, but not exactly confirmed that what she had was indeed a "heart". So no, suggesting that people "grow" a heart is completely different. Keep in mind that at this point you are confusing that having a heart, doesn't mean having a conscious or mind.

 

That's what Kingdom Hearts 2 confirmed. The reason why Nobodies can exist is because they came from strong hearts. One of the key evidence of having Hearts isn't personality, but missing something within themselves, one of the key things they were missing was feelings, but it was more to it than that as some reports in 358/2 days continues. The members sought out to gain back what they had lost, and had their own memories already. at that point, they should gain hearts instantly rather than "growing" one. 

 

You explained absolutely NOTHING about that situation. Axel should of grown a heart with his new found experience. When defeated, he shouldn't have become "Lea" again, he should've been his own person by then. Special Nobodies or not, Roxas and Namine merged back within Sora and Kairi, and as the ending suggests are no longer "in torment" but because of new information such as 358/2 days and re:coded, they are still in torment. Namine for not being. That is a "retcon". 

 

Another Retcon, the problem with how Memories play an integral part of the story as it takes away from one suddenly isn't a problem anymore. Sora couldn't have awaken without Roxas merging back and giving the remaining memories, the same with Xion. those memories were integral to them "being". How Sora had to forget all the real memories in Castle Oblivion because they were linked with the fake ones Namine implanted. 

 

This thread is called "the biggest/worst retcons/plot holes" i'm labeling as both. Its obvious i don't like it. But theres more to it than just not liking it or not. Its the fact that it does indeed provide bigger issues. The idea of Nobodies who are specifically designed to not have hearts and being the other half of themselves seems to defeat the purpose. As a retcon, it was designed to make everyone have an unbelievable happy ending. This is equivalent to Twilight's Jacob imprinting on Bella's infant