The biggest/worst plot holes /retcons

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

 

 

 

1) TT is a retcon bc it was written in at last moment and retconned the previous games villains goals. So it did change things.

 

you don't actually know the specifics. you just know it was a rushed script. you're extrapolating that to say that a change automatically equals a retcon, when it could have been planned. A retcon needs to be more direct than that, otherwise you can argue literally any plot twist is a retcon

 

He literaly told us the order in which he wrote everything and DDD was the one he said he was still writing during production. He even says this series wasn't planned out from the start. 

 

Alright? And? This vague statement doesn't confirm up your specific accusations, it just makes them more likely

 

2)As for Xehanort knowing, he said that in his eagerness he lost sight of the correct way. That says it all.

 

That fits pretty well with him getting excited and writing down incomplete information the moment he finds out about it, doesn't it?

 

Excuses excuses. And a poor one at that.  FFS they were playing chess with pieces representing the lights and darknesses. Seriously. Stop. lolz Now I can't you seriously.

 

Well with a counter argument like that I can see your point clearly! Obviously baby Eraqus should have picked up the chess piece and said "Ah, this clearly represents Vantitas, who will be created in like fifty years.

 

3) I never said Kairi wasn't worthy. I was speaking in general about how others can handle someone elses keyblade and what could happen if you aren't worthy.. It's not explained and if in KH3 it's still not explained it's a plothole. Certainly this should've been explained by now. As for Xion, as of now Nomura has always stated hers was an imitation ( in interviews and in game).

 

Exactly. If. If it's not explained. And really, that's not true, it could be explained in KH4, or whatever. The only way it becomes a plot hole is if the series ends without explaining it

 

With that rationale you could say there is never plotholes bc one day it MIGHT be explained. lolz

 

Not really. A plot hole is a paradox, essentially. To use a really blatant example, if it was established that wielding a keyblade with your left hand caused you to explode, and then Sora used the keyblade with his left hand and nothing happened, that's a plot hole. An unexplained plot point isn't a plot hole. A plot hole is an outright contradiction

 

4) As for how planned.. You know it was meant to be a standalone with a possibility of a sequel if succesful.. They later add extra reports about nobodies in the final mix bc of this.

 

If we use the fact that t was originally meant to be a standalone game then way too much of the games can be considered a recon. It seems pretty clear to me that around KH2 they had a pretty clear idea what they wanted the story to me, and all the games have served that. the focus has been on Xehanort, and on demystifying KH. Really though, it's not like Nomura didn't have any ideas for future KH, sicne even KH1 had secret endings.

That's the problem though, we're arguing author's intent here. We don't know what Nomura made up, and what he wanted to do since day one

 

He literally described writing the plots of these as he goes. So you keep thinking that. You even admitted DDD retconed BBS for this very reason in my other thread. Don't backpedal.

 

Writing the plot as he goes doesn't mean literally everything comes from nowhere, and it doesn't mean a plot point is a retcon just because you decide it is. I also never said that KH has no retcons. That said, with the DDD thing, I'm not backpedaling. I found some extra info, and adjusted my view accordingly. The journal entry leaves enough open for it to not be a definite thing. I already said it's shaky, stop acting like I'm outright saying you're wrong

 

5) Did you not see what the others were wearing when they awoke?

 

Oh huh, I never actually noticed they weren't wearing cloaks in the first scene. In my memory it was just Lea

 

 

6) As for Terra, my point was Mickey wouldn't recognize him physically which is what the other poster was talking about. So you are arguing the same point I am? LOL

 

When does Mickey ever have to recognize Terra physically?

 

The other poster said it was a plothole that Mickey didn't recognize Xemnas bc of Terra. Like as in he should've saw Xemnas looked like Terra. No more needed explanation.

 

oh okay

 

7) Aqua and Ansem were NOT on the same beach. Also confirmed by Nomura.

Then they shouldn't have used the same beach graphic. But even then, what makes that beach NOT the realm of darkness while another beach that's exactly the same part of it?

What? Take it up with Nomura. It's confirmed where they were at and it wasn't the RoD where Aqua and Ansem were.Nomura tells you EXACTLY where they are at. Go back and read it. At this point i think you are trying to bait me bc this doesn't make sense.

I'm just venting about a lazy point. just because I mentioned it in a post involving you doesn't mean it's directed at you. I'm just adding on to your point by saying it's poorly executed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1.. Grasping for straws

 

2-Grasping for straws. Eraqus wasn't even a baby. Wow LOL The fact they were talking about the prophecy shows they knew about the 20 pieces( bc the Xblade was broken into it)  The chess pieces were symbolic of the 20 ..Who the 20 are is Nomura's clues and doing.

 

3- A plothole is also something that is unexplained and contradicts previous info. How Kairi got handed her keyblade doesn't make sense on how people generally get theirs.

 

4- What extra info? Not. And clearly DDD is a huge retcon. I never said EVERY SINGLE thing was a retcon in this series.He does write as he goes and he says so. 

Edited July 28, 2015 by Flaming Lea

[Ephemera 37]

Well the keyblade has always been and will be valuable... After all the only 'true' keyblade is the X-Blade since all other keyblades were manmade in the X-Blade's image excluding the Kingdom Keys.After the Keyblade War, basically the keyblades and their wielders went mostly extinct and then it wasn't until BBS when more keyblade wielders started coming back. But obviously it wasn't until Sora in KH1 and 2 when apparently everyone started getting keyblades. But Sora's keyblade is still very special since we could assume that keyblade wasn't manmade and is actually a 'true' keyblade and/or half of the X-Blade with Kingdom Key D being the other half.But back to the topic and what you said, I do understand your feeling of the decreasing value of the keyblades. Me, to be honest I don't mind all the keyblades now. The only person I thought was weird to get a keyblade was Axel/Lea.

 

 

 

Also Lea has got quite a backstory and transformation to back this up. We see him evolve for the better with our own eyes throughout the series. With his current goals to save his friends and help stop Xehanort the keyblade is a better more useful option. Plus I bet he can still switch off with his chackrams.

 

I want to say that how keyblades have been treated so far in the series is anyone incredibly important into anyone who is relevant has to have a keyblade. Which now seals the fate of everyone else who has been a supportive role. 

Sora's keyblade isn't special but Keyblades so far have been this mysterious conscious weapon that chooses its master. And yet, they are limited by how created by man, how they are just an image of the X-blade. the keyblade choosing Sora is suppose to be special, and as much as the story tries to push it that he is just an ordinary person and that he is special, there's a lot more convincing us that's not the case.

 

Another problem i find that the series now relies on multiple keyblade wielders. It starts to be less and less about Sora's story and how he's unique. Axel could've been useful being a supportive role. but the idea of how X-blade made up of 13 darkness and 7 lights (and these can be interchangeable). The story is forcing every intersting character to devolve into having keyblades. Saix will wield a keyblade just like the others. Back then the story didn't rely on enemies having keyblades.

[Levi Hahn 1]

This^^ Also Lea has got quite a backstory and transformation to back this up. We see him evolve for the better with our own eyes throughout the series. With his current goals to save his friends and help stop Xehanort the keyblade is a better more useful option. Plus I bet he can still switch off with his chackrams.

Kryblade Transformation dude! :DI still think the Kingdom Key is a big deal. I also think Sora is more special than most weilders since he has shown tremendous strength of heart. And also I think Sora will become the Wayfarer of light. Riku, the Wayfarer of dark. Terra, Wayfarer of earth. Aqua, Wayfarer of water. Ventus, Wayfarer of wind. Lea, Wayfarer of fire. I might be missing a Wayfarer and I could be wrong but I also think it would be cool, in my opinion. Aqua granted Kairi the power to weild. Just to get that out of the way guys. As for Lea. Idk. But I'm cool with it. I like him. I think he is worthy. I mean if you're worthy you get a kryblade right? I don't understand why people are upset with BBS. It explained so much for me lol. I liked it. Overall. I have one word to solve all your problems. Magic. It's all magic. And magic doesn't make any sense. You just get mana and then shoot fireballs, make fake replicas, and summon keyblades. LolMagic = hacks Edited July 28, 2015 by Levi Hahn

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Kryblade Transformation dude! :DI still think the Kingdom Key is a big deal. I also think Sora is more special than most weilders since he has shown tremendous strength of heart. And also I think Sora will become the Wayfarer of light. Riku, the Wayfarer of dark. Terra, Wayfarer of earth. Aqua, Wayfarer of water. Ventus, Wayfarer of wind. Lea, Wayfarer of fire. I might be missing a Wayfarer and I could be wrong but I also think it would be cool, in my opinion.Aqua granted Kairi the power to weild. Just to get that out of the way guys.As for Lea. Idk. But I'm cool with it. I like him. I think he is worthy. I mean if you're worthy you get a kryblade right?I don't understand why people are upset with BBS. It explained so much for me lol. I liked it.Overall. I have one word to solve all your problems. Magic. It's all magic. And magic doesn't make any sense. You just get mana and then shoot fireballs, make fake replicas, and summon keyblades. LolMagic = hacks

 

We already knew Aqua gave her the ceremony. We were talking about where and how Riku got her keyblade and just handed it to her .

[AwesomeKHfan 1,250]

Disney Castles Security

 

 

Pluto surviving on his own for so long.

Edited July 29, 2015 by AwesomeKHfan

[outbackjim21 83]

in regards to xehanort saying that he knew the true way to recreate the x-blade all along, it's not that hard to believe that he is lying to protect his own ego. The guy thinks he is a god's answer to the world, it's not unlikely for him to lie. If you were put into a situation where you had all this stuff planned out came up short and found the true answer later on, tell me you wouldn't true to defend your ego. If the guy can essentially lie about being another person, lie to Terra for an entirety of a game, lie to the man he could once call best friend, why wouldn't he lie to his enemies, unlike those other times it doesn't serve a purpose in his overall plan, but it still grants precedent to the fact that he lies... A lot. And since finding these reports are somewhat canon, what's stopping xehanort from releasing false information so that the heroes are forced to take those reports as xehanort's true goal leading them right where he wants them.

[VisitJoan 2,713]

I don't question this stuff at all.  Takes all the fun out of it.

[MickeyTheMick 175]

This whole thread has sooooo many quotes lmfao. I dont question the plot all like that. By now people should know the KH story is very convoluted and deep. 

[Smithee 327]

DDD turning MX into a time-traveling Aizen, making all the heroes and other villains his b****es, and committing homicide on all our nostalgia and senses of accomplishment.

[Ephemera 37]

This whole thread has sooooo many quotes lmfao. I dont question the plot all like that. By now people should know the KH story is very convoluted and deep. 

Convoluted yes. Deep? At this point. no

[Exiblade7 1,917]

Convoluted yes. Deep? At this point. no

how it is not deep? 

[Ephemera 37]

how it is not deep? 

 

The series relies on plot twists and things that unexplainable, or when they are explained it barely makes any sense. Each game after kh2 relied on plot-twists. Xion being a replica, Vanitas having Sora's face and the X-blade, and Master Xehanort time traveling. all designed not to expand the story, but just to throw us off.

[Exiblade7 1,917]

The series relies on plot twists and things that unexplainable, or when they are explained it barely makes any sense. Each game after kh2 relied on plot-twists. Xion being a replica, Vanitas having Sora's face and the X-blade, and Master Xehanort time traveling. all designed not to expand the story, but just to throw us off.

well, hopefully all of that will get explained in kh3. 

[Ephemera 37]

well, hopefully all of that will get explained in kh3. 

Its not whether it gets explained or not, its the fact that it does it on purpose. The series isn't trying to be deep anymore.

[Exiblade7 1,917]

Its not whether it gets explained or not, its the fact that it does it on purpose. The series isn't trying to be deep anymore.

I don't really care if the series isn't trying to be "deep" anymore. I never even noticed it was that way. I think the series has a good storyline nevertheless. 

[Ephemera 37]

I don't really care if the series isn't trying to be "deep" anymore. I never even noticed it was that way. I think the series has a good storyline nevertheless. 

You just asked why is it not deep. thats what i'm explaining.

 

And i beg to differ. XIon inclusion was stupid. the idea of Vanitas was unnecessary. And the fact that time travel was in no way a good way to expand the story. it was an excuse and it wasn't even important in the end. 

 

if you knwo what good writing was, you would know Kingdom hearts has had some of the dumbest writing ever. 

Edited August 1, 2015 by Ephemera

[Exiblade7 1,917]

You just asked why is it not deep. thats what i'm explaining.

 

And i beg to differ. XIon inclusion was stupid. the idea of Vanitas was unnecessary. And the fact that time travel was in no way a good way to expand the story. it was an excuse and it wasn't even important in the end. 

 

if you knwo what good writing was, you would know Kingdom hearts has had some of the dumbest writing ever. 

so you're trying to tell me that kingdom hearts has a "bad" storyline? I don't agree with that! I grew up with the kh series because of it's gameplay AND story! what you said was all based on YOUR opinion!

Edited August 1, 2015 by Kaito Daimon

[Ephemera 37]

so you're trying to tell me that kingdom hearts has a "bad" storyline? I don't agree with that! I grew up with the kh series because of it's gameplay AND story! what you said was all based on YOUR opinion!

I "didn't" grow up with kingdom hearts, i was at the right age of knowing what good writing was by the time Kingdom Hearts 2 came out. 

 

What you're saying is also opinion, but even worst. You're even including how you are bias by saying you grew up with is. I didn't. I however followed the series and played each game extensively. Kingdom Heart series also relies on mystery more than anything else. You can't possibly tell me its good after what we've seen so far in the series. It had broken some of the more serious sins that writing has. 

 

Take it from someone who actually studies writing and played Kingdom Hearts at an age where the nostalgia and all that didn't cloud me from knowing what is good or not. And just because you enjoy a series does not mean a series has good writing. thats just you trying to defend your sense of taste and quality.

[Exiblade7 1,917]

I "didn't" grow up with kingdom hearts, i was at the right age of knowing what good writing was by the time Kingdom Hearts 2 came out. 

 

What you're saying is also opinion, but even worst. You're even including how you are bias by saying you grew up with is. I didn't. I however followed the series and played each game extensively. Kingdom Heart series also relies on mystery more than anything else. You can't possibly tell me its good after what we've seen so far in the series. It had broken some of the more serious sins that writing has. 

 

Take it from someone who actually studies writing and played Kingdom Hearts at an age where the nostalgia and all that didn't cloud me from knowing what is good or not. And just because you enjoy a series does not mean a series has good writing. thats just you trying to defend your sense of taste and quality.

Well, in my opinion it is good

[Ephemera 37]

Tell me how time travel was such a good idea?

[Exiblade7 1,917]

Tell me how time travel was such a good idea?

it just adds to the storyline and the theories make it even more interesting in my opinion. 

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Tell me how time travel was such a good idea?

 

Well, in my opinion it is good

 

Hey guys let's not take this argument too far. You are both entitled to like or dislike the writing and both would have valid reasoning since it's also a matter of opinion.

[Ephemera 37]

it just adds to the storyline and the theories make it even more interesting in my opinion. 

Ok...you see, at this point you must see the seriousness of your comment. Does your comment confirm what is good or not? No...its only confirming that the kingdom hearts series is feeding you that want to make theories. Theories are great....but the series shouldn't have to constantly make up theories. (For the record, there's no theory producing with time-travel, its just a bad aspect). I would highly recommend learn what makes a good story. YOu might be surprised how bad the series has fallen.BUT FOR THE SAKE OF STAYING ON TOPIC:Kingdom hearts plot holes: 1) Organization 13. their goals were practically useless in chain of memories and kh2. Their goal was to create Kingdom Hearts made up of people's hearts so that they could gain hearts. But suddenly Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance claims that they are there because they already had hearts within them and were designed to make the 13 seekers of darkness.2) The fact that in Kingdom Hearts 358/2 days, the game suggests that the second keyblade is in fact Xion herself. When in reality, the keyblade is Ventus's (confirmed by the story).3) The keyblades were originally sentient and had conscience, but now dumbed down to the Mark of Mastery made by MAsters only to give them the classification of Masters, and if one merely "touches" the keyblade that belongs to a master that passes down.4)Nothing suggesting Axel/Lea was a keyblade wielder or even that he earned one, or that he even wanted a keyblade. IN fact everything pointed out that he preferred his own weapon, and yet suddenly he has one just out of curiosity.

[Exiblade7 1,917]

Ok...you see, at this point you must see the seriousness of your comment. Does your comment confirm what is good or not? No...its only confirming that the kingdom hearts series is feeding you that want to make theories.Theories are great....but the series shouldn't have to constantly make up theories. (For the record, there's no theory producing with time-travel, its just a bad aspect). I would highly recommend learn what makes a good story. YOu might be surprised how bad the series has fallen.BUT FOR THE SAKE OF STAYING ON TOPIC:Kingdom hearts plot holes:1) Organization 13. their goals were practically useless in chain of memories and kh2. Their goal was to create Kingdom Hearts made up of people's hearts so that they could gain hearts.But suddenly Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance claims that they are there because they already had hearts within them and were designed to make the 13 seekers of darkness.2) The fact that in Kingdom Hearts 358/2 days, the game suggests that the second keyblade is in fact Xion herself. When in reality, the keyblade is Ventus's (confirmed by the story).3) The keyblades were originally sentient and had conscience, but now dumbed down to the Mark of Mastery made by MAsters only to give them the classification of Masters, and if one merely "touches" the keyblade that belongs to a master that passes down.4)Nothing suggesting Axel/Lea was a keyblade wielder or even that he earned one, or that he even wanted a keyblade. IN fact everything pointed out that he preferred his own weapon, and yet suddenly he has one just out of curiosity.

thanks, but not thanks. I'm just going to use my opinion to judge whether or not the story in the kh series is good or not. I see what you're trying to say though, like I said before, if kh3 answers all of the questions that we fans have (which I kinda doubt for some strange reason), the convolutedness of the series should start to loosen up; therefore making it easier to understand. 

Edited August 1, 2015 by Kaito Daimon

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Ok...you see, at this point you must see the seriousness of your comment. Does your comment confirm what is good or not? No...its only confirming that the kingdom hearts series is feeding you that want to make theories.Theories are great....but the series shouldn't have to constantly make up theories. (For the record, there's no theory producing with time-travel, its just a bad aspect). I would highly recommend learn what makes a good story. YOu might be surprised how bad the series has fallen.BUT FOR THE SAKE OF STAYING ON TOPIC:Kingdom hearts plot holes:1) Organization 13. their goals were practically useless in chain of memories and kh2. Their goal was to create Kingdom Hearts made up of people's hearts so that they could gain hearts.But suddenly Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance claims that they are there because they already had hearts within them and were designed to make the 13 seekers of darkness.2) The fact that in Kingdom Hearts 358/2 days, the game suggests that the second keyblade is in fact Xion herself. When in reality, the keyblade is Ventus's (confirmed by the story).3) The keyblades were originally sentient and had conscience, but now dumbed down to the Mark of Mastery made by MAsters only to give them the classification of Masters, and if one merely "touches" the keyblade that belongs to a master that passes down.4)Nothing suggesting Axel/Lea was a keyblade wielder or even that he earned one, or that he even wanted a keyblade. IN fact everything pointed out that he preferred his own weapon, and yet suddenly he has one just out of curiosity.

 1- Not all members grew hearts. They just had the ability to if given the proper circumstances/nurturing as explained in DDD. Although I will not argue the fact that DDD doesn't retcon previous games plotpoints bc it certainly does do so.

 

2- Agreed it definitely seemed implied it was Xion's and it wasn't clearly said in game ( except Riku calling it a fraud) but is later clarified in interviews the real circumstances of it being Ven's.

 

3. This is true to a point but at least the keyblade still has to judge and choose you. The ceremony doesn't guarantee you will get one.

 

4. Well Nomura explained the reasons why in interviews why this happened the way that it did. I do think it should've been explained in game though since not everyone has the access to read the interviews in question. ( this is one of the bigger flaws in this series imo) Also I would have to argue that he did indeed earn it bc he has over the length of the series shown he has what it takes to be a true wielder.

 

Lea (Axel) ended up playing an unexpected role. I was wondering what was running through your mind when you thought to make him a Keyblade wielder.

Nomura: I figured since he had returned to being human, he wouldn’t have much luck bringing back the people he wanted without some sort of power. Throwing his chakrams doesn’t really count. (Laughs.)

— It’d be bad if he started a fire, huh? (Laughs.) Is he still able to pass through the Corridors of Darkness like before?

Nomura: Diz is also human and can pass through the Corridors of Darkness. Since Lea has the memories of being Axel, he saw the message Ansem wrote on the wall in Radiant Garden and thought that was the only way he could travel. Of course, using the Corridors frequently is dangerous.

— After that, he came to Yen Sid hoping to train.

Nomura: Yes. Since the Mysterious Tower is in an unknown spot, first you have to enter via King Mickey’s world. After that, they’re training in a place where time flows differently, managed by Merlin, the great magician who can exceed time, as well as the Fairies.

— Did he have any prior knowledge?

Nomura: In order to wield a Keyblade, the most important requirement is to be “the owner of a strong heart.” Regardless if it’s a good heart or a bad heart, a strong heart is necessary. Right now there are a lot of things that Lea wants to regain. That desire is connected to the strength of his heart.

— Even though Axel had been eliminated in Kingdom Hearts II, since that time, had you considered having him appear again in his human form Lea?

Nomura: I thought a lot about that. Should I leave him as he was or should I bring him back again? However, when I considered the people that Lea wants to bring back, his existence plays a big role. I think Lea has successively become a key character.

Why did Lea visit Disney Castle when he should have been looking for his friend?

Nomura: To search for his friend he needed the power to move between worlds, and there is no way to do that other than become a Keyblade Wielder. At the time, wanting to be made a Keyblade Wielder, Lea saw a message recorded by Ansem the Wise in the past and, knowing it was dangerous, used the Corridors of Darkness once more to go talk with King Mickey and the others. That’s why after Maleficent left he was asking at the Mysterious Tower.

— So, in ‘The King Departs’, when Yen Sid said ‘great sorcerers and fairies have hastened the flow of time in a different place for you’…

Nomura: Upon request, those who can manipulate time, Merlin and the three fairies who appeared in KH2, changed the flow of time in a special place, and there Lea received hastened training in order to be able to use the Keyblade, basically. In the original scenario, we had planned to have Lea able to use the Keyblade when he ran to Sora.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Flaming Lea