About what Braig said in the 2.5 secret ending

[Charles Matthews 24]

Kinda copied and pasted from another member from another KH forums because i was too lazy to type it all out again

Notice how Braig, and we know this isn't Xigbar as it's when all the apprentices returned to their human forms, says "Lord Xemnas" is nowhere to be seen...

I didn't really think about this before, but doesn't it strike you as odd that he's calling him Xemnas still? Is he referring to Xemnas as we know him, or Apprentice Xehanort? It's commonly gathered that Xemnas and Ansem Seeker of Darkness are, respectfully, the Nobody and Heartless of Apprentice Xehanort/Terranort. 

If that's the case why would he be calling him "Xemnas" still? Much less with that before he was stabbed by Apprentice Xehanort, he stated that his name was "Ansem"...
Not to mention that the next line when he speaks he mentions Master Xehanort as well, indicating that the two are different and possibly coexisting. Especially because he was expecting Xemnas to be there, explicitly stating that he was no longer there, implying Xemnas was also revived along with everyone else.

 

And remember Master Xehanort wasn't fully revived till near the end of 3D so the person it couldn't be him and the "party" Braig was talking about was most likely rounding up the members of the new Org 13 and gathering up for the old man's return while they try to get their 13th.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Charles Matthews

[The Transcendent Key 12,109]

Well, in my opinion, I think Braig was referring to Xemnas as who he is, because even though he is Xehanort's Nobody, Xemnas had already grown a heart, so you could say that he's his own person, with a shred of Xehanort's heart inside him, so it's possible that Xemnas and Xehanort were divided, as we saw them in the final cutscene in The World That Never Was.

[Charles Matthews 24]

Well, in my opinion, I think Braig was referring to Xemnas as who he is, because even though he is Xehanort's Nobody, Xemnas had already grown a heart, so you could say that he's his own person, with a shred of Xehanort's heart inside him, so it's possible that Xemnas and Xehanort were divided, as we saw them in the final cutscene in The World That Never Was.

 

True. I agree with your assessment as it's the only way to make sense out of what Braig said haha but... wasn't Xemnas, Terra's body essentially Terranort's Nobody? The Xemnas we see in 3D was the one brought from the past by YX so then why was Braig expecting Xemnas to be revived with the rest of them in RG? Maybe since Xemnas grew his own heart as you said, maybe he was revived but not the Xemnas we think it is.

 

Heck there could be two Xemnas' running around at this point or atleast in the new Org 13. One from the past and one of the present and it just so happens that Terra's missing.. hmm..

Edited July 8, 2015 by Charles Matthews

[KingdomHearts3 2,591]

Braig was referring to if Xemnas was with Young Xehanort. Since he did not see him at all, he assumed he went ahead in time to get everything set to trap Sora as well as join the other Xehanorts.

Edited July 8, 2015 by KingdomHearts3

[The Transcendent Key 12,109]

True. I agree with your assessment as it's the only way to make sense out of what Braig said haha but... wasn't Xemnas, Terra's body essentially Terranort's Nobody? The Xemnas we see in 3D was the one brought from the past by YX so then why was Braig expecting Xemnas to be revived with the rest of them in RG? Maybe since Xemnas grew his own heart as you said, maybe he was revived but not the Xemnas we think it is.

 

Heck there could be two Xemnas' running around at this point or atleast in the new Org 13. One from the past and one of the present and it just so happens that Terra's missing.. hmm..

Hmm, you make an interesting point.  But I don't think Terranort is missing.  Rather, I think he's one of the cloaked Organization members who didn't take off their hoods!

[Charles Matthews 24]

Braig was referring to if Xemnas was with Young Xehanort. Since he did not see him at all, he assumed he went ahead in time to get everything set to trap Sora as well as join the other Xehanorts.

 

That's kind of what I'm saying though . I think Braig was asking if Xemnas wasn't here after the "grand revival" since technically he became a Heartless/Nobody along with the other  ex Org members and Apprentices, that means he must be out getting the "party" started. Plus there's also the notion that the Xemnas, Braig was expecting to be recompleted in the present wasn't the same Xemnas that YX pulled from the past in 3D. Just like how there's the theory that the Braig we see in the 2.5. secret ending isn't the same Xigbar we see in 3D who could have been snatched from the past.

Hmm, you make an interesting point.  But I don't think Terranort is missing.  Rather, I think he's one of the cloaked Organization members who didn't take off their hoods!

 

Yeah that's kind of what I assumed too. I mean we see that Xemnas is missing during the "recompletion" party and it so happens that Terranort was missing from the recompletion party as well. I'm assuming the "present" Xemnas is Terranort just in some different form which is why he's one of the cloaked Org members we didn't get to see just so we wouldn't learn of Terra's situation even though it's been heavily implied.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Charles Matthews

[The Transcendent Key 12,109]

Yeah that's kind of what I assumed too. I mean we see that Xemnas is missing during the "recompletion" party and it so happens that Terranort was missing from the recompletion party as well. I'm assuming the "present" Xemnas is Terranort just in some different form which is why he's one of the cloaked Org members we didn't get to see just so we wouldn't learn of Terra's situation even though it's been heavily implied.

You know, you might be on to something!  I remember having heard from somewhere a theory about how the heart can shape the vessel and change its form, so this could be what you are implying!

[Charles Matthews 24]

Xemnas is Terra's body after all. I doubt there would have to be much changing of the body besides being a decade older. Like Zexion to Ienzo, Axel to Lea, Saix to Isa etc. Heck if anything, the Terranort we knew probably doesn't exist anymore. But a somewhat "newer" version. A Neo-Terranort if you will. Terra's body but being piloted by Xemnas' heart he was implied to have grown. Would explain why Braig was expecting Xemnas to be with the rest of them in RG and explain MX's implications of still having Terra has one of his vessels despite his heart being in his original body

[Edgar Fabian Santana 4]

I think you guys are onto something. I just think that each member of the new Org 13 members are both their original selves PLUS their Nobodies. Braig Xigbar, Saix, Isa, Xemnas, Master Xehanort, Young Xehanort, Terra and whoever else didn't take off their hoods.

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

Really, I'm just weirded out at the fact that he's suddenly de-ageified when clearly we've seen with Lea, Isa, and Ienzo that any Nobody aging is PERMANENT. Why is Braig suddenly younger!? And for that matter, why is he suddenly old again in Dream Drop Distance? Is he still Xigbar? Or did his body suddenly remember "Oh that's right, I'm supposed to be 11 years older now! Better fix that!" and then he aged again? Given the fact that there's time travel involved I wouldn't be surprised if all we are seeing in DDD are just Xigbar, Xemnas, Saix, and Ansem all taken from various points in time before they were destroyed by Sora, but they don't ever explicitly say it, only that they were "taken from time". And again, I'm still really confused why everyone get's to keep their older appearances when they are restored, but then when Braig is shown to be the first to awaken, he's as young as he was when he was turned into a Nobody by Xehanort. Nomura? Hello? EXPLAIN!?

[BlankShell 638]

Really, I'm just weirded out at the fact that he's suddenly de-ageified when clearly we've seen with Lea, Isa, and Ienzo that any Nobody aging is PERMANENT. Why is Braig suddenly younger!? And for that matter, why is he suddenly old again in Dream Drop Distance? Is he still Xigbar? Or did his body suddenly remember "Oh that's right, I'm supposed to be 11 years older now! Better fix that!" and then he aged again? Given the fact that there's time travel involved I wouldn't be surprised if all we are seeing in DDD are just Xigbar, Xemnas, Saix, and Ansem all taken from various points in time before they were destroyed by Sora, but they don't ever explicitly say it, only that they were "taken from time". And again, I'm still really confused why everyone get's to keep their older appearances when they are restored, but then when Braig is shown to be the first to awaken, he's as young as he was when he was turned into a Nobody by Xehanort. Nomura? Hello? EXPLAIN!?

Nobody "aging" isn't permanent (if it even happens at all to Nobodies that aren't Namine!), the age of the Nobodies reflects the age they were at "Nobodyfication". The apprentices' fall into darkness didn't happen immediately after the events of BBS, it happened a lot closer to the original Kingdom Hearts, which is why Axel and Lea are basically identical. Xigbar isn't any "older" than Braig (though he might look like it with all the silver 'Nort hair) he just suffers from the anime syndrome of not bothering to change your clothing style in ten years.The time travel thing is still a bit squiffy, but my take on it is that, due to needing someone to exist at both points in time, Braig and Isa were essentially stored away so their Nobody selves could be taken from certain points in time (basically they weren't re-Nobodied or re-Norted).

[Henne 150]

Nobody "aging" isn't permanent (if it even happens at all to Nobodies that aren't Namine!), the age of the Nobodies reflects the age they were at "Nobodyfication". The apprentices' fall into darkness didn't happen immediately after the events of BBS, it happened a lot closer to the original Kingdom Hearts, which is why Axel and Lea are basically identical. Xigbar isn't any "older" than Braig (though he might look like it with all the silver 'Nort hair) he just suffers from the anime syndrome of not bothering to change your clothing style in ten years.

 

The "Nobody-fication" happenes around 9 years before KHI. We even saw Ienzo becoming one when he was still a child. And don't tell me that Lea and Isa look the same as before.

 

 

About the Braig thing, what if the "younger one" is just from the past as well? Do we know that this Braig is, in fact, the one after becoming human again (it has been I while since a saw the scene).

Edited July 8, 2015 by Henne

[Guest]

The question I have is, what does Braig mean when he says "Whatever, I got my own plans?"

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

Nobody "aging" isn't permanent (if it even happens at all to Nobodies that aren't Namine!), the age of the Nobodies reflects the age they were at "Nobodyfication". The apprentices' fall into darkness didn't happen immediately after the events of BBS, it happened a lot closer to the original Kingdom Hearts, which is why Axel and Lea are basically identical. Xigbar isn't any "older" than Braig (though he might look like it with all the silver 'Nort hair) he just suffers from the anime syndrome of not bothering to change your clothing style in ten years.The time travel thing is still a bit squiffy, but my take on it is that, due to needing someone to exist at both points in time, Braig and Isa were essentially stored away so their Nobody selves could be taken from certain points in time (basically they weren't re-Nobodied or re-Norted).

Nomura never said that Nobody aging isn't permanent. And again, IENZO aka ZEXION is the biggest example of this. He was a little kid when Xehanort removed his heart, and by the time he's been recompleted he's just as old as he was as a Nobody. 9 years had passed and he kept his age from when he was a Nobody. Being a Nobody doesn't make you immortal or anything, it just gives you a new lease on life, with the constant threat of fading from existence. They are still just bodies, they still age, so naturally the body is going to be just as old when it gets recompleted. And no, the events DID happen 9 years before Kingdom Hearts. Lea and Isa were transformed into Nobodies when they were still teenagers, where did you get the idea that it was closer to the original Kingdom Hearts? That's inaccurate, Nomura confirmed it was one year after the events of BBS.

 

I could buy the stored away part of the theory, but after disputing all of the aging stuff above, it still doesn't answer why Braig got 10 years taken off him.

[BlankShell 638]

Nomura never said that Nobody aging isn't permanent. And again, IENZO aka ZEXION is the biggest example of this. He was a little kid when Xehanort removed his heart, and by the time he's been recompleted he's just as old as he was as a Nobody. 9 years had passed and he kept his age from when he was a Nobody. Being a Nobody doesn't make you immortal or anything, it just gives you a new lease on life, with the constant threat of fading from existence. They are still just bodies, they still age, so naturally the body is going to be just as old when it gets recompleted. And no, the events DID happen 9 years before Kingdom Hearts. Lea and Isa were transformed into Nobodies when they were still teenagers, where did you get the idea that it was closer to the original Kingdom Hearts? That's inaccurate, Nomura confirmed it was one year after the events of BBS. I could buy the stored away part of the theory, but after disputing all of the aging stuff above, it still doesn't answer why Braig got 10 years taken off him.

Is there a Nomura quote on the darkness fall happening one year after BBS? I haven't seen that before. The only game-based evidence I see if that is the aftermath in the opening of DDD, which is hard to tell what's exactly going on anyway.As for Braig getting "ten years", again, anime aging syndrome. Showing the age progression of the children (and Roxas doesn't exactly age, does he? =P) is enough to indicate the passage of time, so others like Even and Dilan don't need to have new models made for them.

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

Is there a Nomura quote on the darkness fall happening one year after BBS? I haven't seen that before. The only game-based evidence I see if that is the aftermath in the opening of DDD, which is hard to tell what's exactly going on anyway.As for Braig getting "ten years", again, anime aging syndrome. Showing the age progression of the children (and Roxas doesn't exactly age, does he? =P) is enough to indicate the passage of time, so others like Even and Dilan don't need to have new models made for them.

AGAIN, you are avoiding the flaw in your argument, Ienzo. You can clearly see that he's a kid when he was felled by Xehanort's Keyblade in the opening to DDD, and then later on when Lea wakes up Ienzo is just as old as he was when he was Zexion in Chain of Memories. Don't try to tell me that DDD was just so confusing that it was hard to follow, that part was as clear as day. By your logic, Ienzo should be a kid again, when in DDD he is a young adult.

 

And as much as KH does take some inspirations from anime, there's no such "anime aging syndrome" present so far. Most of it is just not bothering to create new models. They've been pretty inconsistent with how they depict a year's worth of aging, Sora, Riku, and Kairi looking the most different after only one year. Roxas doesn't look that different at all, though if you wanted to, you could probably argue that he was a few inches shorter when he started out, but there's no comparative evidence to support that at the moment. It only got really weird when Ventus had the exact same model when he was training under Master Xehanort (this was during the year Sora was born, and since Sora was age 4 by the time Terra and Aqua visit the island, that means that Ventus was split in two roughly 4 years before the main events of BBS). During that time, Ventus was roughly 11 years old, yet he looks more or less the same when he's 15 years old. From a story standpoint it probably doesn't really matter, but the point here is that they either became a bit more lazy with age differences over time or Ven just reached an early growth spurt by the time he was 10 or 11. But that was only just a few years with minor differences, Braig in BBS is a man either in his late 20's or mid 30's and by KH2 he looks to be about 40 or 50 in appearance. Maybe some of it has to do with him being "Nort'ed" the whole time, but there is also some physical signs of aging, and Nomura did state in one interview that Braig was a bit older than he let on. Unless certain rules are going to be expressly stated about any "de-aging" from transitioning from Nobody to complete being, it's been pretty consistent so far that the age you last were as a Nobody is the age you wake up in as a recompleted person. This is what makes Braig's appearance confusing to me, as he is the only one who seems to be breaking this formula. It's something that I hope Nomura addresses at some point, because I'm wondering if it's either a case of being detoxed of any amount of Nort you have in you (which would then suggest it was just mostly him being Nort'ed) or if one of the perks of becoming a Xehanort means eternal youth...which would come out of nowhere.

[Edgar Fabian Santana 4]

Have you guys seen these videos? they kinda help with the time traveling aspect, plus a few more unanswered questioned.

Why Sora is so special:

How time traveling works in KH:

Xehanorts Ambitions:

[BlankShell 638]

AGAIN, you are avoiding the flaw in your argument, Ienzo. You can clearly see that he's a kid when he was felled by Xehanort's Keyblade in the opening to DDD, and then later on when Lea wakes up Ienzo is just as old as he was when he was Zexion in Chain of Memories. Don't try to tell me that DDD was just so confusing that it was hard to follow, that part was as clear as day. By your logic, Ienzo should be a kid again, when in DDD he is a young adult.

I wasn't referring to DDD as a whole, I was referring specifically to that opening segment, where the brief glimpse of Ienzo's prone form looks different from both his child and adult models, so it's hard to say. This could support your apparent quote that the darkness fall happened a year after BBS (a source of which I asked for, and you did not provide). 

And as much as KH does take some inspirations from anime, there's no such "anime aging syndrome" present so far. Most of it is just not bothering to create new models. They've been pretty inconsistent with how they depict a year's worth of aging, Sora, Riku, and Kairi looking the most different after only one year. Roxas doesn't look that different at all, though if you wanted to, you could probably argue that he was a few inches shorter when he started out, but there's no comparative evidence to support that at the moment. It only got really weird when Ventus had the exact same model when he was training under Master Xehanort (this was during the year Sora was born, and since Sora was age 4 by the time Terra and Aqua visit the island, that means that Ventus was split in two roughly 4 years before the main events of BBS). During that time, Ventus was roughly 11 years old, yet he looks more or less the same when he's 15 years old. From a story standpoint it probably doesn't really matter, but the point here is that they either became a bit more lazy with age differences over time or Ven just reached an early growth spurt by the time he was 10 or 11. But that was only just a few years with minor differences, Braig in BBS is a man either in his late 20's or mid 30's and by KH2 he looks to be about 40 or 50 in appearance. Maybe some of it has to do with him being "Nort'ed" the whole time, but there is also some physical signs of aging, and Nomura did state in one interview that Braig was a bit older than he let on. Unless certain rules are going to be expressly stated about any "de-aging" from transitioning from Nobody to complete being, it's been pretty consistent so far that the age you last were as a Nobody is the age you wake up in as a recompleted person. This is what makes Braig's appearance confusing to me, as he is the only one who seems to be breaking this formula. It's something that I hope Nomura addresses at some point, because I'm wondering if it's either a case of being detoxed of any amount of Nort you have in you (which would then suggest it was just mostly him being Nort'ed) or if one of the perks of becoming a Xehanort means eternal youth...which would come out of nowhere.

I don't see any physical signs of aging between Xigbar and Braig, simply the slight differences in their appearance due to A. Being a Nobody, and B. being half Xehanort. Ansem looks the same ten years ago as he does in the current timeline (Realm of Darkness oddities aside), as does Aeleus. The fact that they don't bother with new models when they don't have to is entirely the point; in terms of the timeline, Braig is ten years older, but because he is at that point an "adult", they don't see a need to give him a brand new model for the two scenes he's in, because it would just be a waste of resources.

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

I wasn't referring to DDD as a whole, I was referring specifically to that opening segment, where the brief glimpse of Ienzo's prone form looks different from both his child and adult models, so it's hard to say. This could support your apparent quote that the darkness fall happened a year after BBS (a source of which I asked for, and you did not provide). I don't see any physical signs of aging between Xigbar and Braig, simply the slight differences in their appearance due to A. Being a Nobody, and B. being half Xehanort. Ansem looks the same ten years ago as he does in the current timeline (Realm of Darkness oddities aside), as does Aeleus. The fact that they don't bother with new models when they don't have to is entirely the point; in terms of the timeline, Braig is ten years older, but because he is at that point an "adult", they don't see a need to give him a brand new model for the two scenes he's in, because it would just be a waste of resources.

How does Ienzo's model in the opening look any different? He looks exactly the same as he is depicted in BBS.