Why are we so afraid of calling out the bullshit?

[Dio Brando 5,810]

Note:Just because some people won't get it.What I'm saying here is mostly a subjective opinion...it's not something you're forced to accept or agree with

 

 

This has been something bugging me about the Kingdom Hearts series and it's fanbase in general and the latest thread by our friend Flaming Lea has drove the point to home for me

 

http://kh13.com/forum/topic/87655-something-that-bothers-me/

 

Why are we so afraid of calling out the bullshit when we see it?What's wrong with voicing your concerns about the series when you find them whether they're plot related or gameplay related

 

me and other people here have been constantly...and I mean CONSTANTLY....bombarded with people that call us  haters even if we voiced the tiniest of concerns regarding the series and it's the reason I stopped talking about Kingdom Hearts for a while here cuz this fanbase doesn't accept a middle ground it's always:If you're not with me then you're against me

 

 

Sure I love the series myself but people shouldn't deny that the way the series was handled  ever since the handheld entries was questionable at best and sometimes outright dumb at worst and KH x(chi) brought this issue right to home for me as I can't stand all the unnecessary bullshit this game has that somehow are canon and very crucial to KH3.

 

There are so many retcons and inconsistences within the series coupled with time travel that the series almost became absolutely unaccessible for newcomers....which is a franchise killer especially when the subject is RPGs

 

I cannot count for the life of me the many times where I was trying to explain the events of the series in a comprehensible manner before they give up half-way through and say: "f*** it this is ridiculous why do I have to go through all of this to even get a simplence of understanding for what the heck is even going on" and the unwelcoming fanbase doesn't help with that either because like I said above most of the fanbase have this mentality of:If you're not with me then you're against me

 

 

 some people can get way over the top with their defense as if I insulted a family member.....some times on other places it got so bad to the point of actual harassment

 

ProJared on youtube lost so many subs just because he said he doesn't like Kingdom Hearts....and Matt from YoVideoGames recieved death threats literally because he played the BBS demo in E3 2010 with one hand and won,he didn't say anything not even commentary or something baiting in the title yet he was bombarded with angry emails and death threats.THAT IS NOT HOW YOU PRESENT THE SERIES TO OTHER GAMERS PEOPLE!

 

In fact by doing this you're literally turning people away from it leading the series to appealing to only the niche part of the most die-hard blind-loyalists which won't help neither the fans nor the series in the long run

 

If one wants his favorite series to grow and become bigger and better they should make sure to tell the people behind it what they did wrong and what they did right.That's the feedback that's gonna make the series grow and prosper against the competition

 

When I see something like this:

 

 

Even if they're flaws I refuse to acknowledge them because I love KH and think it's perfect and those flaws makes the games more enjoyable 

 

 

I cringe to no end because if all what Nomura's gonna hear in terms of feedback is only blind-loyalists that says there is absolutely nothing wrong then he'll keep repeating the same mistakes over and over and over and over again and it's gonna get much much worse and out of control.

 

 

The biggest problem with the KH fanbase specifically (and to an extent the Square Enix fanbase in general) is that they either play Kingdom Hearts and only Kingdom Hearts or play Square Enix-made RPGs and nothing else as it's mostly a safe bet for their money with most of them not caring enough to broaden their horizons and explore what other JRPGs from other companies have to offer and get only exposed to one kind of story telling and only that type of storytelling and gameplay

 

Games like the Shin Megami Tensei series,the Persona series,the (Tales Of) series,Xenoblade chronicles,The Lost Oddyssey,Skies of Arcadia,Legend of Dragoon,Fire Emblem,Golden Sun,Suikoden 2....etc heck even Square Enix's own offerings like Chrono Trigger,Secret of Mana and most of the classic Final Fantasy titles from 1 to 10(except 8) and Crisis Core FFVII and games like Bravely Default offers just as much of a fun experience,compelling story and memorable characters as Kingdom Hearts if not even better with little to no retcons and a more coherent plot.Granted that's highly subjective but experiencing other forms of storytelling,be it from a game or an animemovie,will teach you more about stuff like character growth,character development,world building,the different types and architypes for protagonists and villains.....etc heck if you don't want to invest  money at least just look up a playthrough of one of the games I mentioned on youtube and learn for yourself

 

 

 

I'm not saying that KH has no right to have a complex plot cuz it does have the right.It's just a matter of a great story that was told poorly when the series jumped into more handheld entries with stuff from Birth by Sleep and DDD that assures any newcomer to have the hardest of time getting into the series especially if you're an Xbox gamer getting KH3 for your Xbox One and was completely new to the series.

 

People also like to compare KH to Metal Gear saying that Metal Gear is just as convoluted but here is the difference:Unlike Nomura,Hideo Kojima(the creator of Metal Gear) had a beginning and an end in mind and didn't make us wait for over a decade to see the conclusion of the Solid Snake saga with MGS4:Guns of the Patriot.He wrapped up the storyline in 2008 which gave him more time to tie-up the loose ends within the Big Boss saga that takes place before it linking all those plot threads nicely,not only that but with the release of MGS4 Kojima released a free downloadable MGS app on the PS3's PS store that sums up the stories of the MSX games,MGS 1,2 and 3 before it so newcomers who got into Metal gear with MGS 4 and are going to buy games like Peace Walker and MGS 5 the Phantom Pain won't have to go out of their way to get every game in the series or get subjected to an essay-sized wikipediayoutube analysis of it....it's convoluted sure but the creator went out of his way to make sure it's accessible

 

Nomura is basically doing the opposite of that right now with KH x(chi)Unchained Blade and the way he writes the series as he seems to make up stuff on the fly whenever he writes the next game heck he admitted that in interviews when he talked about the writing for DDD as we saw with some of the retcons.

 

Bottomline:If you love Kingdom Hearts,if you truly wanna see this series  grow,prosper,become better and better,invite new people and share your love for the series with them,don't afraid to be critical.And I don't mean you should be an angry negative mob nor an obssessive loyalist....just don't be afraid of being critical and tell the developer what you like and what you don't like and what you wish to be fixed and most importantly....be a fan not a fanboy.

 

Edited June 22, 2015 by Smash Mega Koopa

[Kaweebo 3,617]

Well, because there's calling out bullshit and voicing your opinion. Acting as if your opinion is somehow objective truth would probably make people mad. For example, 

 

 

Sure I love the series myself but people shouldn't deny that the way the series was handled  ever since the handheld entries was questionable at best and sometimes outright dumb at worst and KH x(chi) brought this issue right to home for me as I can't stand all the unnecessary bullshit this game has that somehow are canon and very crucial to KH3.

 

There are so many retcons and inconsistences within the series coupled with time travel that the series almost became absolutely unaccessible for newcomers....which is a franchise killer especially when the subject is RPGs

 

I cannot count for the life of me the many times where I was trying to explain the events of the series in a comprehensible manner before they give up half-way through and say: "f*** it this is ridiculous why do I have to go through all of this to even get a simplence of understanding for what the heck is even going on" and the unwelcoming fanbase doesn't help with that either because like I said above most of the fanbase have this mentality of:If you're not with me then you're against me

 

This is you voicing your opinion. The franchise being confusing, difficult to explain and having made mistakes, I can agree. But a lot of people, myself included, feel that a lot of the choices having been made since the handheld entries were great. Even Dream Drop Distance with it's nonsensical plot and retconning is a great concept in my opinion and the nonsensical-ness of it just draws me in more with the idea that the majority of it is set in a dream. Dreams are weird, DDD is weird; dreams don't make sense, DDD doesn't make sense. DDD technically retconned some stuff and I feel the way it was handled was just fine, that may not work for you but that's where I'm coming from. And personally, I like how complex the story is, it makes me feel a sense of pride that I understand it up to this point after years of examining the games and the series.

 

But none of that is truth, it's simply how I feel. 

 

Telling me that I 'shouldn't' feel a certain way about a videogame franchise is you speaking as if your opinion is objective truth when, in simple fact, it is not. Pointing out flaws, sure. But a lot of times I feel like when people point out flaws in the franchise, which then get other people arguing their own points in return, it makes the original critics defensive, acting as if they're being bullied. Or 'afraid to call out bullshit'. You can call out bullshit all you want, but expect people to have their own thoughts and feelings as well. 

Edited June 22, 2015 by Kaweebo

[Klonoa the Dream Traveler 678]

Woah. I agree with you said, but you should expect this from the KH fanbase. Kingdom Hearts fans are known to do crazy shit and make odd pair-up with fan art.

Like this:

But not all the fans does this. There's some average fans like us, and some crazy fans over get butthurt over a opinion. Just ignore them. All fanbases are like this. You don't need to get your panties in a bunch.

[HeyMouseSayCheese 1,133]

Speak for yourself. I don't have any problems pointing out what I perceive as problems with this series (or any series, I like to think).

 

Look, there's always gonna be those superfans who defend whatever thing they're really into to the death, and make those really stupid "the flaws make it better!" sort of statements. That's true of any fanbase, especially in the Internet Age where everyone can be as stubborn and hard-nosed as they want about any issue with zero repercussions. You can't control how other people behave or respond to your opinions, and you'll just make yourself sick if you let it bother you this much. Say what you want if you feel like you have a good point to make, and tune out the crazies.

[Dio Brando 5,810]

Well, because there's calling out bullshit and voicing your opinion. Acting as if your opinion is somehow objective truth would probably make people mad. For example,This is you voicing your opinion. The franchise being confusing, difficult to explain and having made mistakes, I can agree. But a lot of people, myself included, feel that a lot of the choices having been made since the handheld entries were great. Even Dream Drop Distance with it's nonsensical plot and retconning is a great concept in my opinion and the nonsensical-ness of it just draws me in more with the idea that the majority of it is set in a dream. Dreams are weird, DDD is weird; dreams don't make sense, DDD doesn't make sense. DDD technically retconned some stuff and I feel the way it was handled was just fine, that may not work for you but that's where I'm coming from. And personally, I like how complex the story is, it makes me feel a sense of pride that I understand it up to this point after years of examining the games and the series.But none of that is truth, it's simply how I feel.Telling me that I 'shouldn't' feel a certain way about a videogame franchise is you speaking as if your opinion is objective truth when, in simple fact, it is not. Pointing out flaws, sure. But a lot of times I feel like when people point out flaws in the franchise, which then get other people arguing their own points in return, it makes the original critics defensive, acting as if they're being bullied. Or 'afraid to call out bullshit'. You can call out bullshit all you want, but expect people to have their own thoughts and feelings as well.

Where did I say I'm saying an objective truth heck I did say if you even read that what I'm saying is highly subjective

 

See?This is the overreaction I'm talking about where people have their jimmies rustled 

 

Speak for yourself. I don't have any problems pointing out what I perceive as problems with this series (or any series, I like to think).Look, there's always gonna be those superfans who defend whatever thing they're really into to the death, and make those really stupid "the flaws make it better!" sort of statements. That's true of any fanbase, especially in the Internet Age where everyone can be as stubborn and hard-nosed as they want about any issue with zero repercussions. You can't control how other people behave or respond to your opinions, and you'll just make yourself sick if you let it bother you this much. Say what you want if you feel like you have a good point to make, and tune out the crazies.

I'm not aiming to control.....I'm only suggesting here and people can take or leave said suggestion

Edited June 22, 2015 by Flaming Lea

[Kaweebo 3,617]

Where did I say I'm saying an objective truth heck I did say if you even read that what I'm saying is highly subjective

Obviously you never point-blank said your opinion is truth, but telling people they shouldn't think a certain way and then proceeding to continue explaining your opinions as if they were law IS acting as if your opinion is true. 

 

Take this, for example:

I'm not saying that KH has no right to have a complex plot cuz it does have the right.It's just a matter of a great story that was told poorly when the series jumped into more handheld entries with stuff from Birth by Sleep and DDD that assures any newcomer to have the hardest of time getting into the series especially if you're an Xbox gamer getting KH3 for your Xbox One and was completely new to the series.

 

"I'm not saying that KH has no right to have a complex plot, but I think the series has been told poorly ever since they went handheld and newcomers will be confused."

 

The 'newcomers will be confused' part is correct, sure, but you start off your point by again proclaiming that the KH series has been done poorly since they jumped to handheld. Not everybody agrees with that. My point is still that you can call out flaws in the series and even back up your arguments with fact, but expect blowback. Expect other gamers with their own arguments and sources to cite and expect them to be able to counter your points with their own. Ignore the people who call you 'haters' because they're not bringing anything to the table anyway, they're just insulting you.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Kaweebo

[Aang 649]

I completely agree. I'm not blinded, and I can clearly see flaws within the series, as there is in virtually every game/series. Though the same can't be said for everyone.

[HeyMouseSayCheese 1,133]

Note:Just because some people won't get it.What I'm saying here is mostly a subjective opinion...it's not something you're forced to accept or agree with

 

Why aren't we allowed to post subjective opinions?

[Dio Brando 5,810]

Obviously you never point-blank said your opinion is truth, but telling people they shouldn't think a certain way and then proceeding to continue explaining your opinions as if they were law IS acting as if your opinion is true. 

 

Take this, for example:

 

"I'm not saying that KH has no right to have a complex plot, but I think the series has been told poorly ever since they went handheld and newcomers will be confused."

 

The 'newcomers will be confused' part is correct, sure, but you start off your point by again proclaiming that the KH series has been done poorly since they jumped to handheld. Not everybody agrees with that.

I was saying my opinion here and nowhere in my post did I say you should agree with it.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Flaming Lea

[KeybladeLordCheeseCurd 1,542]

Obviously you never point-blank said your opinion is truth, but telling people they shouldn't think a certain way and then proceeding to continue explaining your opinions as if they were law IS acting as if your opinion is true.  Take this, for example: "I'm not saying that KH has no right to have a complex plot, but I think the series has been told poorly ever since they went handheld and newcomers will be confused." The 'newcomers will be confused' part is correct, sure, but you start off your point by again proclaiming that the KH series has been done poorly since they jumped to handheld. Not everybody agrees with that.

I was confused about the story once. Then I understood it more until I could practically explain it myself. And I don't think it was told poorly at all. Although, that's my opinion. *poof*

[Dio Brando 5,810]

Why aren't we allowed to post subjective opinions?

Because people think you're objecting your opinion on them and twist your posts to accuse you of forcing it down their throat even if you didn't do so

[KeybladeLordCheeseCurd 1,542]

I completely agree. I'm not blinded, and I can clearly see flaws within the series, as there is in virtually every game/series. Though the same can't be said for everyone.

I can see flaws within the series too. But I just learned to live with them. That's one reason why I like KH. It has flaws, but I live with them. And even change an opinion on some of them. Except for Atlantica. I'll always hate Atlantica with a passion.

[Kaweebo 3,617]

 

 

Sure I love the series myself but people shouldn't deny that the way the series was handled  ever since the handheld entries was questionable at best and sometimes outright dumb at worst and KH x(chi) brought this issue right to home for me as I can't stand all the unnecessary bullshit this game has that somehow are canon and very crucial to KH3.

 You are free to think the way you do, voice your concerns and critiques of the series, but it's not me being hysterical or overreacting when the proof is in the words themselves that you are projecting your opinions as fact.

 

I agree with the point of this thread. You want to complain or critique about the series, go for it. But it's wording like this that makes you come off as projecting your opinions onto others, which would then piss them off and cause a hate war.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Flaming Lea

[Dio Brando 5,810]

 

 

 

I'm only talking about myself and a couple of people that share my opinion when I said the series did have some poor handling....nowhere did I say that this is a fact.You are the one thinking that I'm projecting my opinion as a fact when literally nowhere in my post did I present it as such

Edited June 22, 2015 by Flaming Lea

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

I think the OP's point was it's ok to criticize our favorite games without being told we are haters..If you don't like obvious retcons and plotholes then of course you have the right to say such without being flamed. You have a right to voice concerns as well.

 

On the flip side if you aren't bothered by such then you have the right as well to feel that way. 

 

 

Point being, people need to learn to respect other's viewpoints and opinions. You don't need to agree but you also don't need to be a dick about it either. That's what forums are for- fans coming together to talk, discuss, and share with each other.

[Dio Brando 5,810]

I think the OP's point was it's ok to criticize our favorite games without being told we are haters..If you don't like obvious retcons and plotholes then of course you have the right to say such without being flamed. You have a right to voice concerns as well.

 

On the flip side if you aren't bothered by such then you have the right as well to feel that way. 

 

 

Point being, people need to learn to respect other's viewpoints and opinions. You don't need to agree but you also don't need to be a dick about it either. That's what forums are for- fans coming together to talk, discuss, and share with each other.

This

 

Again,I don't mind disagreement as long as people don't act as if this is a personal assault or act as if I'm imposing my opinion on them when in reality I'm just voicing my concern

 

 

I'm a huge fan of this series and I wanna see it grow that's why I voice my concerns in the vein hope that they might get addressed someday.If I didn't care about Kingdom Hearts then why would I write a wall of text about it

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

This

 

Again,I don't mind disagreement as long as people don't act as if this is a personal assault or act as if I'm imposing my opinion on them when in reality I'm just voicing my concern

 

 

I'm a huge fan of this series and I wanna see it grow that's why I voice my concerns in the vein hope that they might get addressed someday.If I didn't care about Kingdom Hearts then why would I write a wall of text about it

 

 

Exactly! If we didn't care we wouldn't be here discussing in the first place. I don't mind some flaws and retcons but when some retcons are big it annoys me since I'm very fact and detail oriented. It might not bother somebody else but it bothers me.

[Toominator 916]

Friendly reminder that it's okay to agree to disagree   carry on, but let's be friends here.

[Kaweebo 3,617]

This

 

Again,I don't mind disagreement as long as people don't act as if this is a personal assault or act as if I'm imposing my opinion on them when in reality I'm just voicing my concern

 

 

I'm a huge fan of this series and I wanna see it grow that's why I voice my concerns in the vein hope that they might get addressed someday.If I didn't care about Kingdom Hearts then why would I write a wall of text about it

I apologize if I offended you because I didn't come here with the intention of arguing or 'calling you out'. Re-reading my initial post, I sounded a little more annoyed and upset than I intended to, because I really wasn't at all, though it came off that way. I absolutely agree with the point that people shouldn't be afraid to speak out and criticize the series and I don't want to come off as someone who drinks in everything Nomura produces as if it were perfect because nothing is perfect, KH is no exception. I've got my own hangups about the series just as much as anybody else.

 

I respect your viewpoint and I didn't mean to come off rudely.  

Edited June 22, 2015 by Kaweebo

[Dio Brando 5,810]

I apologize if I offended you because I didn't come here with the intention of arguing or 'calling you out'. Re-reading my initial post, I sounded a little more annoyed and upset than I intended to, because I really wasn't at all, though it came off that way. I absolutely agree with the point that people shouldn't be afraid to speak out and criticize the series and I don't want to come off as someone who drinks in everything Nomura produces as if it were perfect because nothing is perfect, KH is no exception. I respect your viewpoint and I didn't mean to come off rudely.  

It's okay...and sorry for the mess that happened earlier

[Javelin434 3,164]

Woah. I agree with you said, but you should expect this from the KH fanbase. Kingdom Hearts fans are known to do crazy shit and make odd pair-up with fan art.

Like this:

But not all the fans does this. There's some average fans like us, and some crazy fans over get butthurt over a opinion. Just ignore them. All fanbases are like this. You don't need to get your panties in a bunch.

>>>KAIRI POST DETECTED<<<

 

WHAT THE F!#@ DID MY EYES JUST WITNESS JESUS H. CHRIST I NEED HOLY WATER AND LYSOL FOR MY EYES NOW YOU ARE IN BIG TROUBLE MISTER-

 

Er... On topic...

Your topic question of "Why are we so afraid of calling out the bullshit" can best be summed up by the modern generation phenomenon in which everyone must be accepting of others or risk being called negative things. For example, calling someone "fat" instead of "beautiful in their own way" will have you labelled as a "shallow, superficial bigot who is highly judgemental of others and is interested only in looks." My favorite one is the whole thing about being gay, where it is apparently now the yardstick in which we can judge someone of whether or not they are "normal" or a "backwards thinking homophobic, degenerate, backwater bigot."

 

With this modern phenomenon in mind, it comes as no surprise that this generation is hysterically soft. We can't call stuff out for what it is, otherwise we risk offending people, and god forbid that we hurt other peoples feelings just because there's a hole in their argument or logic. We can't ask the tough questions like what Lea, along with many others, do because if we can't form up a proper explanation, you're immediately labelled as a 'threat' and a 'hater.' It weakens the collective as a whole, since addressing a very real problem/issue is put on the sideline for the sake of political correctness.

 

Granted, some of the hater labels are well deserved [looking at you, Kairi haters....], however, most are undeserved. Ignore those who call you haters, and instead challenge them by making them answer the tough questions. If their logic is sound however, then respect it; afterall, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, interpretations and viewpoints. Yes, there are those crazy loyalists who ruin it for everyone [Kairi loyalist here afterall...], but just remember that there are others who agree and share your viewpoints. They're just mostly quiet, and don't bother posting/reinforcing your opinion.

 

 

>>>As for you nightmare, GET RID OF THAT PICTURE

Edited June 22, 2015 by Javelin434

[Dracozombie 4,554]

I can see flaws within the series too. But I just learned to live with them. That's one reason why I like KH. It has flaws, but I live with them. And even change an opinion on some of them. Except for Atlantica. I'll always hate Atlantica with a passion.

 

Kinda sums up how I approach the awesome clusterfiretruck that is the KH series. KH is one of those series that, to me, almost feels counterproductive to point out all its flaws. I encourage critical discussion, and that involves analyzing its flaws and its strengths and assessing what makes it tick. But with KH, it never seemed like I was better off having seen someone pick at its roots for its imperfections.

 

Much of the shaky pacing and retcons among games were partly influenced by external decisions, such as rushing production, or stalling for time by including a (perhaps unnecessary) side game that plants yet another plot point we'd need to keep track of. I'm sure if Nomura had everything his way, more than a few things would've turned out differently. Since much of the flaws people point out have to do with these business decisions, I don't feel analytical to endlessly pointing them out -- I just feel like I'm taking the piss out of mistakes that have already happened, can't be fixed, and with no guarantee they'd be avoided in the future. Rarely have I gained anything from these discussions. I haven't appreciated KH more by calling out the bullshit. I haven't felt satisfaction from it, I don't feel productive. Mainly I've only felt worse about the series by seeing how flimsy the foundation really is. So, rather than try to change what can't necessarily be fixed, I'd rather just learn to live with it. And when people constantly discuss the flaws, the implication is that, no, they can't be lived with.

 

Say what you will about KH being the sort of game where you'd need to keep the wool over your eyes to enjoy yourself, but, I wanna enjoy myself. Because it's a game and I wanna like it, so I prefer to avoid discussions where "The thing you enjoyed before I took it apart and revealed how shaky/unnecessary it was? Yeah. It's shaky/unnecessary, so I have no idea why you enjoy it." Days and BBS are common punching bags.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Dracozombie

[hatok 6,413]

So what I'm gathering from this is that Kingdom Hearts is glitchier than Assassin's Creed Unity

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

Note:Just because some people won't get it.What I'm saying here is mostly a subjective opinion...it's not something you're forced to accept or agree with

 

 

This has been something bugging me about the Kingdom Hearts series and it's fanbase in general and the latest thread by our friend Flaming Lea has drove the point to home for me

 

http://kh13.com/forum/topic/87655-something-that-bothers-me/

 

Why are we so afraid of calling out the bullshit when we see it?What's wrong with voicing your concerns about the series when you find them whether they're plot related or gameplay related

 

me and other people here have been constantly...and I mean CONSTANTLY....bombarded with people that call us  haters even if we voiced the tiniest of concerns regarding the series and it's the reason I stopped talking about Kingdom Hearts for a while here cuz this fanbase doesn't accept a middle ground it's always:If you're not with me then you're against me

 

 

Sure I love the series myself but people shouldn't deny that the way the series was handled  ever since the handheld entries was questionable at best and sometimes outright dumb at worst and KH x(chi) brought this issue right to home for me as I can't stand all the unnecessary bullshit this game has that somehow are canon and very crucial to KH3.

 

There are so many retcons and inconsistences within the series coupled with time travel that the series almost became absolutely unaccessible for newcomers....which is a franchise killer especially when the subject is RPGs

 

I cannot count for the life of me the many times where I was trying to explain the events of the series in a comprehensible manner before they give up half-way through and say: "f*** it this is ridiculous why do I have to go through all of this to even get a simplence of understanding for what the heck is even going on" and the unwelcoming fanbase doesn't help with that either because like I said above most of the fanbase have this mentality of:If you're not with me then you're against me

 

 

 some people can get way over the top with their defense as if I insulted a family member.....some times on other places it got so bad to the point of actual harassment

 

ProJared on youtube lost so many subs just because he said he doesn't like Kingdom Hearts....and Matt from YoVideoGames recieved death threats literally because he played the BBS demo in E3 2010 with one hand and won,he didn't say anything not even commentary or something baiting in the title yet he was bombarded with angry emails and death threats.THAT IS NOT HOW YOU PRESENT THE SERIES TO OTHER GAMERS PEOPLE!

 

In fact by doing this you're literally turning people away from it leading the series to appealing to only the niche part of the most die-hard blind-loyalists which won't help neither the fans nor the series in the long run

 

If one wants his favorite series to grow and become bigger and better they should make sure to tell the people behind it what they did wrong and what they did right.That's the feedback that's gonna make the series grow and prosper against the competition

 

When I see something like this:

 

 

I cringe to no end because if all what Nomura's gonna hear in terms of feedback is only blind-loyalists that says there is absolutely nothing wrong then he'll keep repeating the same mistakes over and over and over and over again and it's gonna get much much worse and out of control.

 

 

The biggest problem with the KH fanbase specifically (and to an extent the Square Enix fanbase in general) is that they either play Kingdom Hearts and only Kingdom Hearts or play Square Enix-made RPGs and nothing else as it's mostly a safe bet for their money with most of them not caring enough to broaden their horizons and explore what other JRPGs from other companies have to offer and get only exposed to one kind of story telling and only that type of storytelling and gameplay

 

Games like the Shin Megami Tensei series,the Persona series,the (Tales Of) series,Xenoblade chronicles,The Lost Oddyssey,Skies of Arcadia,Legend of Dragoon,Fire Emblem,Golden Sun,Suikoden 2....etc heck even Square Enix's own offerings like Chrono Trigger,Secret of Mana and most of the classic Final Fantasy titles from 1 to 10(except 8) and Crisis Core FFVII and games like Bravely Default offers just as much of a fun experience,compelling story and memorable characters as Kingdom Hearts if not even better with little to no retcons and a more coherent plot.Granted that's highly subjective but experiencing other forms of storytelling,be it from a game or an animemovie,will teach you more about stuff like character growth,character development,world building,the different types and architypes for protagonists and villains.....etc heck if you don't want to invest  money at least just look up a playthrough of one of the games I mentioned on youtube and learn for yourself

 

 

 

I'm not saying that KH has no right to have a complex plot cuz it does have the right.It's just a matter of a great story that was told poorly when the series jumped into more handheld entries with stuff from Birth by Sleep and DDD that assures any newcomer to have the hardest of time getting into the series especially if you're an Xbox gamer getting KH3 for your Xbox One and was completely new to the series.

 

People also like to compare KH to Metal Gear saying that Metal Gear is just as convoluted but here is the difference:Unlike Nomura,Hideo Kojima(the creator of Metal Gear) had a beginning and an end in mind and didn't make us wait for over a decade to see the conclusion of the Solid Snake saga with MGS4:Guns of the Patriot.He wrapped up the storyline in 2008 which gave him more time to tie-up the loose ends within the Big Boss saga that takes place before it linking all those plot threads nicely,not only that but with the release of MGS4 Kojima released a free downloadable MGS app on the PS3's PS store that sums up the stories of the MSX games,MGS 1,2 and 3 before it so newcomers who got into Metal gear with MGS 4 and are going to buy games like Peace Walker and MGS 5 the Phantom Pain won't have to go out of their way to get every game in the series or get subjected to an essay-sized wikipediayoutube analysis of it....it's convoluted sure but the creator went out of his way to make sure it's accessible

 

Nomura is basically doing the opposite of that right now with KH x(chi)Unchained Blade and the way he writes the series as he seems to make up stuff on the fly whenever he writes the next game heck he admitted that in interviews when he talked about the writing for DDD as we saw with some of the retcons.

 

Bottomline:If you love Kingdom Hearts,if you truly wanna see this series  grow,prosper,become better and better,invite new people and share your love for the series with them,don't afraid to be critical.And I don't mean you should be an angry negative mob nor an obssessive loyalist....just don't be afraid of being critical and tell the developer what you like and what you don't like and what you wish to be fixed and most importantly....be a fan not a fanboy.

 

 

 

Well, because there's calling out bullshit and voicing your opinion. Acting as if your opinion is somehow objective truth would probably make people mad. For example, 

 

 

This is you voicing your opinion. The franchise being confusing, difficult to explain and having made mistakes, I can agree. But a lot of people, myself included, feel that a lot of the choices having been made since the handheld entries were great. Even Dream Drop Distance with it's nonsensical plot and retconning is a great concept in my opinion and the nonsensical-ness of it just draws me in more with the idea that the majority of it is set in a dream. Dreams are weird, DDD is weird; dreams don't make sense, DDD doesn't make sense. DDD technically retconned some stuff and I feel the way it was handled was just fine, that may not work for you but that's where I'm coming from. And personally, I like how complex the story is, it makes me feel a sense of pride that I understand it up to this point after years of examining the games and the series.

 

But none of that is truth, it's simply how I feel. 

 

Telling me that I 'shouldn't' feel a certain way about a videogame franchise is you speaking as if your opinion is objective truth when, in simple fact, it is not. Pointing out flaws, sure. But a lot of times I feel like when people point out flaws in the franchise, which then get other people arguing their own points in return, it makes the original critics defensive, acting as if they're being bullied. Or 'afraid to call out bullshit'. You can call out bullshit all you want, but expect people to have their own thoughts and feelings as well. 

 

 

Where did I say I'm saying an objective truth heck I did say if you even read that what I'm saying is highly subjective

 

See?This is the overreaction I'm talking about where people have their jimmies rustled

 

 

I'm not aiming to control.....I'm only suggesting here and people can take or leave said suggestion

 

 

Obviously you never point-blank said your opinion is truth, but telling people they shouldn't think a certain way and then proceeding to continue explaining your opinions as if they were law IS acting as if your opinion is true. 

 

Take this, for example:

 

"I'm not saying that KH has no right to have a complex plot, but I think the series has been told poorly ever since they went handheld and newcomers will be confused."

 

The 'newcomers will be confused' part is correct, sure, but you start off your point by again proclaiming that the KH series has been done poorly since they jumped to handheld. Not everybody agrees with that. My point is still that you can call out flaws in the series and even back up your arguments with fact, but expect blowback. Expect other gamers with their own arguments and sources to cite and expect them to be able to counter your points with their own. Ignore the people who call you 'haters' because they're not bringing anything to the table anyway, they're just insulting you.

 

 

I was saying my opinion here and nowhere in my post did I say you should agree with it.

 

 

Because people think you're objecting your opinion on them and twist your posts to accuse you of forcing it down their throat even if you didn't do so

 

 

 You are free to think the way you do, voice your concerns and critiques of the series, but it's not me being hysterical or overreacting when the proof is in the words themselves that you are projecting your opinions as fact.

 

I agree with the point of this thread. You want to complain or critique about the series, go for it. But it's wording like this that makes you come off as projecting your opinions onto others, which would then piss them off and cause a hate war.

 

 

I'm only talking about myself and a couple of people that share my opinion when I said the series did have some poor handling....nowhere did I say that this is a fact.You are the one thinking that I'm projecting my opinion as a fact when literally nowhere in my post did I present it as such

 

 

I think the OP's point was it's ok to criticize our favorite games without being told we are haters..If you don't like obvious retcons and plotholes then of course you have the right to say such without being flamed. You have a right to voice concerns as well.

 

On the flip side if you aren't bothered by such then you have the right as well to feel that way. 

 

 

Point being, people need to learn to respect other's viewpoints and opinions. You don't need to agree but you also don't need to be a dick about it either. That's what forums are for- fans coming together to talk, discuss, and share with each other.

 

 

This

 

Again,I don't mind disagreement as long as people don't act as if this is a personal assault or act as if I'm imposing my opinion on them when in reality I'm just voicing my concern

 

 

I'm a huge fan of this series and I wanna see it grow that's why I voice my concerns in the vein hope that they might get addressed someday.If I didn't care about Kingdom Hearts then why would I write a wall of text about it

 

 

Exactly! If we didn't care we wouldn't be here discussing in the first place. I don't mind some flaws and retcons but when some retcons are big it annoys me since I'm very fact and detail oriented. It might not bother somebody else but it bothers me.

 

 

I apologize if I offended you because I didn't come here with the intention of arguing or 'calling you out'. Re-reading my initial post, I sounded a little more annoyed and upset than I intended to, because I really wasn't at all, though it came off that way. I absolutely agree with the point that people shouldn't be afraid to speak out and criticize the series and I don't want to come off as someone who drinks in everything Nomura produces as if it were perfect because nothing is perfect, KH is no exception. I've got my own hangups about the series just as much as anybody else.

 

I respect your viewpoint and I didn't mean to come off rudely.  

 

 

It's okay...and sorry for the mess that happened earlier

 

 

WHHHHOOOOOOAAAA! Hey, let's just all agree to agree here, eh!? 

 

Seriously though, there's somethings I want to address myself. For one thing, nice opinion Smash Mega Koopa. I have my own opinion that I'd rather keep, but thanks for the insight, I understand your intentions, even if I don't agree with most of what you said, doesn't mean that it should have any less value than my own or anyone else's.

Still, I believe that the point that Kaweebo was trying to make was that despite your desire to try and state a subjective opinion without trying to tell people how they should or shouldn't feel, that message can kind of get lost or misinterpreted when you say things like "people have to acknowledge that the story telling got iffy by the time the handhelds came around" (that's a paraphrase, I'm not directly quoting you, just summing up the impression I got, don't fret over it) or that "don't over defend the franchise" (more paraphrasing). I know that you aren't trying to force your opinion down anyone's throat, but try to understand that depending on how you word things people might take it the wrong way.

 

Like Kaweebo said, some people came into the series through the handhelds and really liked how the story was being told at that point. I myself started from the beginning like you and most of us here and I still loved the direction the handhelds were taking the franchise, even now. But you don't see me going around claiming the games to be written by Shakespeare Jesus Kojima the Second or anything, I recognize that they have flaws. To this day I still cannot comprehend how Nomura said that the reason Roxas collapsed in Castle Oblivion during Days was because he was too close to both Sora AND Ventus at the same time when by that point Sora had already been moved to Twilight Town almost 100 days prior to that event! AND HE STILL HASN'T ADDRESSED THAT-But anyway I'm getting ahead of myself here. My point is that I too realize that the series isn't perfect, it has flaws, even in the story department. As impressive of a creator, universe/lore builder, and storyteller that Nomura is, he isn't perfect, nor is anybody in this crazy world of ours (and even if someone was, we wouldn't know it because we would all have differing opinions of perfection as well), but he's still done a damn good job with the story so far and the sheer fact that any of us are even nitpicking on any of these details is just proof that he made something so great that we care enough about it to point out where it needs work.

 

For me, the story lately does have some problems, but I don't feel that any of them are so glaring that it completely kills the idea of having any more games introduced to the series with their own plots to add to KH3. Even Flaming Lea's point about Xehanort and Eraqus does resonate with me a little bit, but I still find that it doesn't ruin it for me that much. Yeah, I kind of have to come up with my own reasoning about why certain characters or things worked out the way they did when it would have been simpler to have stuck with an idea, but it probably would have been a lot worse if it was so inconsistent that I couldn't even reason as to why it could ever possibly work that way at all.

 

Anyway I feel like I'm rambling, so I'm going to try to get to my main point. Mega, I get what you mean, but you also have to understand that no matter how you phrase things you're still probably going to rub some people the wrong way, cause everybody's got an opinion. The main trick is to try and make sure your phrasing stays consistent enough with what you're trying to convey. A good idea might be to say something like "I'm not saying you should do this, but I would suggest/recommend it if you're willing", just to kind of drive home the point that you're not trying to force any views on anyone, but that too is a suggestion, so it's up to you. Also, try not to fret too much when somebody calls you out on something, cause from where I was standing Kaweebo was being fair and wasn't overreacting. Kaweebo, I agree with how the way he was saying things may have gotten a bit contradictory to what he said. That said tho, it's good to see that you recognized that you may have been aggravating him a bit, I guess sometimes trying to have a point has some consequences. And kudos to Flaming Lea for coming in to try and cool things down (ironically enough. Get it? hehe...), nobody likes arguing! Overall I'm just glad that things seemed to have worked out, cause this series is about friendship and I like seeing that being applied on this site as well!   

[Xiro 3,468]

The biggest problem with the KH fanbase specifically (and to an extent the Square Enix fanbase in general) is that they either play Kingdom Hearts and only Kingdom Hearts or play Square Enix-made RPGs and nothing else as it's mostly a safe bet for their money with most of them not caring enough to broaden their horizons and explore what other JRPGs from other companies have to offer and get only exposed to one kind of story telling and only that type of storytelling and gameplay

I know it's all subjective and opinions and whatnot, but for some reason this paragraph stuck out to me. Granted, I suppose using the KH13 community as a sample of all the KH fans won't necessarily give you the most accurate results, but I'm having trouble believing that what you've said in the above paragraph is "the biggest problem with the KH fanbase". That may be the case for some people, but I doubt that it is for the majority of the fanbase. I can't say whether it's true or not, but it's just something that bugged me as I was reading through the initial post. To me, the way you've written it makes it sound like you're stating it as a fact. If it's your opinion on what the problem is, please write it like an opinion.

 

Games like the Shin Megami Tensei series,the Persona series,the (Tales Of) series,Xenoblade chronicles,The Lost Oddyssey,Skies of Arcadia,Legend of Dragoon,Fire Emblem,Golden Sun,Suikoden 2....etc heck even Square Enix's own offerings like Chrono Trigger,Secret of Mana and most of the classic Final Fantasy titles from 1 to 10(except 8) and Crisis Core FFVII and games like Bravely Default offers just as much of a fun experience,compelling story and memorable characters as Kingdom Hearts if not even better with little to no retcons and a more coherent plot.Granted that's highly subjective but experiencing other forms of storytelling,be it from a game or an animemovie,will teach you more about stuff like character growth,character development,world building,the different types and architypes for protagonists and villains.....etc heck if you don't want to invest  money at least just look up a playthrough of one of the games I mentioned on youtube and learn for yourself

For some of these series, the majority of the games are unrelated to each other story-wise, like SMT, Persona, Tales, FE (I think), and FF, save the occasional sequel or FFVII thing with all the side games. And then there are things like Xenoblade that only have one two games. (And then there are some series that I don't know anything about ) If you're comparing individual games to individual games, then all of your examples can be used perfectly, but if you're comparing series to series, it's a bit harder to do with those differences in mind. I'm pretty sure you were talking about the KH series as a whole, sooooo yeah.

My thoughts on the little things that aren't important. Thank you for your time.