Anime | Manga Kazuhiko Torishima: DragonBall Should Have Ended At Frieza

[Firaga 5,947]

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2015-06-04/dragon-ball-manga-editor-series-should-have-ended-after-frieza/.88918

 

Kazuhiko Torishima, former editor for Akira Toriyama from his years doing Dr. Slump up the end of the first half of DragonBall, as well as a CEO at Shuiesha, was interviewed by comedian Kendo Kobayashi and, of course, the man asked Torishima about the current state of the DragonBall series. This included not only his confirmation that the series should have ended after the Namek/Frieza Arc, but he also cheekly says, "If you're fighting opponents like old farts (Dr. Gero) and ladies (Android 18), then it's best to call it a day." (This quote was somewhat mishandled in the interview, so I found a better translation.)

 

Weeeell, whoop-de-freaking-doooo... it's time to play everybody's favorite game: "Let's Debate When DragonBall Should Have  Ended Even Though It's Super Freaking Redundant At This Point Due To How Long The Series Has Lasted And People Should Clam Up Already Because Their Opinons Mean Jackshit"... ugh...

 

To be fair, I'm not angry with Mr. Torishima when I make that statement. He's wasn't even malicious about the subject, he's just speaking from hindsight. I'm angry with the fanbase, because they are the ones who constantly play that game to death since, I don't know, the anime ended, and now anybody who brings up this topic just makes me want to groan.

 

Still, f*ck Torishima for talking shit about my waifu.... okay, not really. lol But let's get back on track:

 

I know what all of you people are going to say, especially those who actually are fans of DragonBall. You're gonna post all your opinions, saying that DB should have ended at Frieza, or Cell, , or even King Piccolo or after the Dragon Balls used for the first time, and you're also going to state your reasons why you think so, and why this arc was crap or why this other arc was crap and why this villain sucked or why this other villain sucked, and yadda yadda yadda.

 

I'm not opposed to anybody having a opinion, but for Kami's sake, DragonBall has been a thing for more than two decades now. We just got done with the first two DragonBall anime films in years, films that actually continue the story, and there's a confirmation that a new anime series is going to premiere in a mere month. Arguing about whether or not DragonBall should have ended earlier at this point is redundant. It's one of the biggest hot-button topics in the fanbase, something that still breeds arguments, unnecessary bile, and general mockery of the series as well, even though the relevancy of its opposition towards the series has literally outgrown them.

 

Mr. Torshima thinks fighting old guys and women is when you should call it a day. I laugh at this statement. Not only because it makes him seem kind of sexist (I mean, it kinda does after all), but also because he thinks that the Androids were apparently the reaching point in DragonBall. Yeah, sure. And yet he didn't have a problem with the big, green slug man that touted himself as a demon and literally birthed his minons from eggs... also reinforced by the fact that the slug man's design was based on him... 

 

See, this is why you got replaced, Mr. Torishima. You're no fun.

 

Now, I could go on about my own feelings about DragonBall ending at Frieza, because a) Frieza is my favorite villain/arc and b) I do believe in some circles that it would also be a fitting ending, but thats the thing: "Some circles". As in, it can fit in some ways. Because if it literally ended after Frieza, and in the same way the Frieza Arc ended originally mind you, then holy crap would it be disappointing. Goku's resolution with his Saiyan heritage and Frieza is one thing, and it also showcased Piccolo very well, but Gohan would still be given a shaft in characterization for never reaching his full potential (which was the original point of making the second half in the first place), the human characters would go off on a really bad note considering they all died and never got a chance to redeem themselves sans Krillin, and most of Vegeta's characterization goes to waste. Plus, really, everything seems like a waste when you think about it. The Saiyan & Namek Arcs introduced us to both the concepts of the afterlife and space travel. And after only laying down certain foundations for both those concepts, to just only scratch the surface of what is possible with them and then just say "sayonara" to the entire series just feels like stillborn creativity, and its minuscule to the amount of lore we would receive later on.

 

And I don't want to live in a world where my waifu, Future Trunks, and Lord Beerus don't exist... I'd rather visit the world where GT was never made. Or better yet, The Movie That Shall Not Be Named.

 

So yeah, despite my rambling, all of you are going to tell me what you think anyways, so feel free. Just remember: two decades and still trucking. Alright? Alright.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Firaga Sensei

[Soul Eater Evans 4,045]

Nah, I wasn't gonna give an opinion on ___ statement here. I was just gonna commend you for including your waifu into such a long post.

 

 

 

[Demyx. 10,064]

I don't care when it "should" have ended. I love all of it. I never wanted it to end in the first place!

[Sorarocks93 678]

Little random question here but, If DB Super begins after the end of the Buu Saga, does that mean the 2 new movies aren't canon?

[Firaga 5,947]

Little random question here but, If DB Super begins after the end of the Buu Saga, does that mean the 2 new movies aren't canon?

 

Of course not. BoG and 'F' were handled directly by Akira Toriyama, and DB Super isn't backtracking to before those movies. "After the Buu Saga" just means "after Goku defeated Kid Buu", which is the last important event that happened in the 'Z' anime sans Goku leaving with Uub, and we're not gonna start at that point in time either. So in short, Super is going to start after 'F'.

[Sorarocks93 678]

Of course not. BoG and 'F' were handled directly by Akira Toriyama, and DB Super isn't backtracking to before those movies. "After the Buu Saga" just means "after Goku defeated Kid Buu", which is the last important event that happened in the 'Z' anime sans Goku leaving with Uub, and we're not gonna start at that point in time either. So in short, Super is going to start after 'F'.

Oh nice! 

 

Oh wait, does that mean...

 

Spoilers for "F"

 

That we will see Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 and 3? Considering that SSJG is basically a vastly upgrade normal form and SSJGSSJ is basically the equivalent of SSJ.

 

[Movies798 1,360]

Well I love Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z series. One of my favorite Funimation dub anime series and Cell is my favorite villain and the Cell Games saga is favorite arc. Can't wait for Dragon Ball Super the real Dragon Ball canon series taking place after Kid Buu saga.

[Ultimus Grid 546]

Sure, I'll give my thoughts on the matter.

 

I don't know what others think, but personally I'm glad the series continued after the Frieza Arc.  If it had stopped there, then a lot of things would've been missed out.  Not only on what you pointed out Firaga, but also on some cool transformations, fight scenes, fusion, awesome music, and a couple others.  Yeah, Frieza is a great villain and interesting stuff happened on Namek, but I don't it would've been satisfying or done well if things ended with him.

 

I was curious to what movie you mean, but I think I know what it could be.

[Dio Brando 5,810]

While I still think the Cell saga was a satisfactory ending for DBZ for me and I personally don't like the Buu saga,at least I can live with the Buu saga existing since at least it had some decent moments

 

GT on the other hand though can die a fire and I hope it's still not canon

 

 

Again,just my personal thoughts as I still love DBZ to death and Battle of Gods was a fantastic movie

Edited June 6, 2015 by Smash Mega Koopa

[HeyMouseSayCheese 1,133]

Y'know, if you're so sick of hearing other people obnoxiously and brazenly express their opinions on anime and manga, maybe the Internet isn't the best place for you to hang out.

 

Anyhow, honestly, I always thought it was generally agreed that DB should have ended after Frieza. Everything after that got a little too wacky, and the fights kept ramping up too much- villains are strong, so the heroes get EVEN STRONGER, but the the villains get EVEN STRONGER THAN THAT so the heroes have to get EVEN WAY MORE STRONGER and so on. Not to mention they borked up Gohan's character real bad after the Cell games, so it's not like ending it at Frieza would have been all that bad.

 

Not that I don't enjoy the Cell and Buu sagas- I really do (well, Cell kinda sucked, but not important right now). The kid in me loves seeing time traveling bug robots, and fat blobs that turns folk into candy, and Goku and Vegeta putting on magic earrings and fusing into a hella tough buy. Problem is, the adult in me- and he is much bigger, stronger and more convincing- can see that the story really suffers for all the stuff that kept getting added on and on and on. (Not even mentioning the movies, so many of which are sickeningly bad.)

[Firaga 5,947]

Oh nice! 

 

Oh wait, does that mean...

 

Spoilers for "F"

 

That we will see Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 and 3? Considering that SSJG is basically a vastly upgrade normal form and SSJGSSJ is basically the equivalent of SSJ.

 

 

 

Well... I dunno. Maybe? lol

 

 

Y'know, if you're so sick of hearing other people obnoxiously and brazenly express their opinions on anime and manga, maybe the Internet isn't the best place for you to hang out.

 

Just because I openly express my distaste for certain opinions, doesn't mean they keep me from sleeping at night. They are, after all, opinions, at the end of the day, so I ask that you not tell me to leave the internet. In fact, I find it rude that you would even bring up such a thing.

 

Not that I don't enjoy the Cell and Buu sagas- I really do (well, Cell kinda sucked, but not important right now). The kid in me loves seeing time traveling bug robots, and fat blobs that turns folk into candy, and Goku and Vegeta putting on magic earrings and fusing into a hella tough buy. Problem is, the adult in me- and he is much bigger, stronger and more convincing- can see that the story really suffers for all the stuff that kept getting added on and on and on. (Not even mentioning the movies, so many of which are sickeningly bad.)

 

How does the story "suffer" from expansion of its elements? Like I said previously, an ending at the Frieza Arc would cut short any potential for expansion on the elements both that arc and the arc before it set up, which would be a huge waste for the series compared to what it was able to achieve in reality thanks to continuing forward. 

 

And if "the adult in you" is so turned off by DragonnBall's brand of silly happenings... then how?

 

How are "time traveling time bug robots" and "fat blobs that turn folk into candy", and a method of fusion requiring two people to wear earrings is any worse than a giant anthro-rabbit that turns people into carrots, a cat that grows magic beans, a dinosaur-man hybrid that can create gum inside his stomach, a wolfman who is originally a wolf and not a man, a mercenary that can kill people with just his tongue, a giant slug man who claims to be a demon, the reincarnation of said bug man who can stretch his arms and regenerate his body, a talking shapeshifting pig, a talking shapeshifting cat that can float, a family smart enough to create miniature storage pods for things like motorcycles and RVs, a black genie man assigned as the servant of God, God himself being a big slug man, a wish-granting dragon that when killed has to be revived by being reassembled as a model kit, a entire race of barbaric aliens who turn into giant monkeys upon looking at the moon, a space overlord who hides his power by growing larger and then growing smaller, a fat mime-like robot who can absorb energy, another fusion technique that requires a dance number, a man who literally relies mostly on luck to be a world martial arts champion of the world, OR a purple anthro-cat with the power to destroy planets and a temper so small that he would destroy a planet over pudding?

 

Really, DragonBall, from day one, has thrived off of ridiculous concepts such as the ones I have described. If the "adult in you" only starts to think its ridiculous by the end of the entire series, then I don't even know what to say to you other than dropping "the adult in you" schtick and just look as you. Not the "kid in you', not the "adult in you", just you, a DragonBall fan. A person open to anything and everything that the series presents no matter how ridiculous, because at the end of the day, its always going to be ridiculous in some type of way.

 

Also, I don't see how the movies sans BoG/'F' have to do with anything considering they're all non-canon.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Firaga Sensei

[HeyMouseSayCheese 1,133]

Just because I openly express my distaste for certain opinions, doesn't mean they keep me from sleeping at night. They are, after all, opinions, at the end of the day, so I ask that you not tell me to leave the internet. In fact, I find it rude that you would even bring up such a thing.

 

Jumping to quite a conclusion from a joke I made. If you can't deal with sarcasm, again, Internet really doesn't seem like the place for you.

 

How does the story "suffer" from expansion of its elements? Like I said previously, an ending at the Frieza Arc would cut short any potential for expansion on the elements both that arc and the arc before it set up, which would be a huge waste for the series compared to what it was able to achieve in reality thanks to continuing forward. 

 

And if "the adult in you" is so turned off by DragonnBall's brand of silly happenings... then how?

 

How are "time traveling time bug robots" and "fat blobs that turn folk into candy" any worse than a giant antro-rabbit that turns people into carrots, a cat that grows magic beans, a dinosaur-man hybrid that can create gum inisde his stomach, a wolfman who is originally a wolf and not a man, a mecernary that can kill people with just his tounge, a giant slug man who claims to be a demon, the reincarnation of said bug man who can stretch his arms and regenerate his body, a talking shapeshifting pig, a talking shapeshifting cat that can float, a family smart enough to create minature storage pods for things like motorcyles and RVs, a entire race of babaric-like aliens who turn into giant monkeys upon looking at the moon, a space overlord who hides his power by growing larger and then growing smaller, a fat mime-like robot who can absorb energy, another fusion technique that requires a dance number, a man who literally relies mostly on luck to be a world martial arts champion of the world, OR a purple anthro-cat with the power to destroy planets and a temper so small that he would destroy a planet over pudding?

 

Because things had taken a much more serious turn in the series a long time ago. It's not just wacky ridiculous fun like Dr. Slump or other gag manga; ever since King Piccolo, the series focused a lot more on drama rather than comedy (there are still elements of the goofy stuff of course, but it's not nearly as prevalent as it was in the beginning). And it was fine for a bit because it kind of fit, the whole evil Demon King trying to steal the magic artifacts that can grant him immortality thing made sense in relation to the ridiculous magic nature of the series. (Same thing with Piccolo Jr., and that also wouldn't have been a bad way to end the series.)

 

Then suddenly we find out this super tough monkey boy is actually an alien and his alien brother comes and firetrucks shit up (and also God is an alien too), and then while Goku's dead more aliens show up and render all the old characters that used to be cool totally weak and useless, and then they let the guy who tried to kill everyone Goku loves (even though he totally aimed to kill King Piccolo) and then we find out that there are actually more legendarily powerful magic artifacts on the same planet God came from, so we have to go there, and wouldn't you know it, they just happen to meet the super powerful planetary realtor that the previous aliens worked for and also killed his real dad!!!

 

Point is, the story was kinda turning to shit even way before Frieza (really, I sorta hate the Saiyan saga for many of the reasons above). The story went from martial arts and magic to space travel and alien magic and also retconning current characters to be aliens. That's pretty firetrucking stupid, and if it weren't for the interesting characters introduced on Namek (God bless you, Ginyu Force), I probably wouldn't have liked the Frieza saga any more than the Cell or Buu sagas. A lot of the problems I have with the series also started with Frieza- the constant ramping up of power/introduction of new EVEN STRONGER characters, the melodrama that doesn't mesh well with the goofy cartoon nature, lots of dumbass science fiction tropes that, again, don't mesh well.

 

All that carries into future sagas, along with crap like time travel, Earth robots that are somehow stronger than the aliens that blow up firetrucking planets, a creepy bug bio-robot with delusions of grandeur, EVEN MORE magic aliens (one of which having brainwashed literally the devil). They kept adding more and more and more and more, and just piling shit on doesn't make for a good story.

 

Really, DragonBall, from day one, has thrived off of ridiculous concepts such as the ones I have described. If the "adult in you" only starts to think its ridiculous by the end of the entire series, then I don't even know what to say to you other than dropping "the adult in you" schtick and just look as you. Not the "kid in you', not the "adult in you", just you, a DragonBall fan. A person open to anything and everything that the series presents no matter how ridiculous, because at the end of the day, its always going to be ridiculous in some type of way.

 

I do appreciate the hypocrisy of you assuming I'm telling you to leave the internet and then later lecturing me on how I should live my life, and I really hope you appreciate it too.

 

Also, I don't see how the movies sans BoG/'F' have to do with anything considering they're all non-canon.

 

They don't, which is why I didn't go into any detail on them, but it's worth mentioning that they were almost all shit and most were made around the same time as the anime and some at least attempt to appear canon.

Edited June 6, 2015 by HeyMouseSayCheese

[Firaga 5,947]

Jumping to quite a conclusion from a joke I made. If you can't deal with sarcasm, again, Internet really doesn't seem like the place for you.

 

It was a supposed to be a joke? In what way? Even sarcastic jokes actually sound like jokes, not just saying rude things.

 

Because things had taken a much more serious turn in the series a long time ago. It's not just wacky ridiculous fun like Dr. Slump or other gag manga; ever since King Piccolo, the series focused a lot more on drama rather than comedy (there are still elements of the goofy stuff of course, but it's not nearly as prevalent as it was in the beginning). And it was fine for a bit because it kind of fit, the whole evil Demon King trying to steal the magic artifacts that can grant him immortality thing made sense in relation to the ridiculous magic nature of the series. (Same thing with Piccolo Jr., and that also wouldn't have been a bad way to end the series.)

 

Then suddenly we find out this super tough monkey boy is actually an alien and his alien brother comes and firetrucks shit up (and also God is an alien too), and then while Goku's dead more aliens show up and render all the old characters that used to be cool totally weak and useless, and then they let the guy who tried to kill everyone Goku loves (even though he totally aimed to kill King Piccolo) and then we find out that there are actually more legendarily powerful magic artifacts on the same planet God came from, so we have to go there, and wouldn't you know it, they just happen to meet the super powerful planetary realtor that the previous aliens worked for and also killed his real dad!!!

 

Point is, the story was kinda turning to shit even way before Frieza (really, I sorta hate the Saiyan saga for many of the reasons above). The story went from martial arts and magic to space travel and alien magic and also retconning current characters to be aliens. That's pretty firetrucking stupid, and if it weren't for the interesting characters introduced on Namek (God bless you, Ginyu Force), I probably wouldn't have liked the Frieza saga any more than the Cell or Buu sagas. A lot of the problems I have with the series also started with Frieza- the constant ramping up of power/introduction of new EVEN STRONGER characters, the melodrama that doesn't mesh well with the goofy cartoon nature, lots of dumbass science fiction tropes that, again, don't mesh well.

 

All that carries into future sagas, along with crap like time travel, Earth robots that are somehow stronger than the aliens that blow up firetrucking planets, a creepy bug bio-robot with delusions of grandeur, EVEN MORE magic aliens (one of which having brainwashed literally the devil). They kept adding more and more and more and more, and just piling shit on doesn't make for a good story.

 

What you can "piling on shit" is exactly the progression that DragonBall has always taken. Yes, it's sort of just throwing in one out-the-box concept after another, with the concepts more than often being something creative yet mind-boggling or bizarre, but so what? That's the style. Akira Toriyama has always written DragonBall from with this type of imagination put into play, even back when he believed that the series would end only after one arc. Things like meeting God, going into space, and time-travel are what DragonBall uses to mix things up, to expand on the possibilities that the world is capable of doing, and its something that has always been prevalent regardless of what tone the series takes.

 

DragonBall may have been a gag manga in its roots, but just because there are less gags going on and more mature elements being put into play after a certain point in the series (and I say "mature" and not "melodramatic" because if "melodramatic" was the style that DragonBall took, then everybody would be a whining brat like Vegeta), it doesn't change the fact that the world of DragonBall is fully of silliness and off-the-wall logic and happenings, and even in serious times did those elements ever cling to the core of what makes DragonBall DragonBall. Even before King Piccolo, everything wasn't all sunshine and lollipops. As early as the second arc of the series, themes that hold weight for a mature audience instead of just seeing silly characters do silly characters has always been possible. Even as things become more expanded and while the silliness was somewhat turned down. You said it yourself, the main villains in the latter half of the series included a time-traveling bug robot and a pink blob. Concepts that sound silly on paper, as silly as a mercenary who can kill people with his tongue and a big green slug man as a God, but when executed in the series, make much more sense in context.

 

All you're really saying is that you disliked the story focusing on more other-worldly concepts instead of mysticism, when really, it was never the case. Other-worldly was favored over mysticism, but the latter never exactly faded either. There were still expansions to the plane of Gods and the afterlife, and even the aliens that God and Piccolo were made to be used magic. If anything, those ideas are more of a happy medium between magic and sci-fi. "Aliens magic", i.e. Bibidi Babadi Buu, isn't that far off either. You're basically following the "They Changed It, Now It Sucks" trope. And the fact that you base most of this on just listing off everything that happened in the series after King Piccolo, and acting like everything you list sans any actually reasons why you don't like them is grounds for why it's bad. It's not even criticism, you are literally just re-capping events and expecting me to see that its bad. That's like me criticizing One Piece because shit with pirates happened and then more shit with pirates happened.

 

Also, the concept of newer, stronger opponents appearing in DragonBall is a concept that the series enforces. It is a lesson that Master Roshi teaches to Goku near the beginning of the series. The fact that it expands to the point of Gods only serves as a compliment to how far the stakes can be raised.

 

I do appreciate the hypocrisy of you assuming I'm telling you to leave the internet and then later lecturing me on how I should live my life, and I really hope you appreciate it too.

 

So me suggesting, not telling, you to look at an anime/manga series in a different light is also me telling you how to live your life? Your entire life? I don't see the connection here. I think you're the one being the overly-sensitive dude you're trying to make me out to be.

[TheEightMelodies 152]

As a huge fan of Dragon Ball I am still glad it's going on stong. Can't wait for the new series and I loved Battle of the Gods with it's humor that reminded me of the original Dragon Ball. 

 

I also don't really agree with the people who say that everything should have ended after Frieza. If you don't like the arcs afterwards then you can just pretend they don't exist and move on. There's really no point fighting about it. Afterall, unless you can travel back in time you can't achieve anything.

 

Super excited for Dragon Ball Super and I hope that it doesn't suck. 

[Shulk 8,623]

It would be a waste if the series ended at Frieza. There were a lot of great moments, characters, and battles in the following sagas that we never would have seen if the series had ended that early. The series still did well, and I don't get how the latter sagas of Z can be seen as bad. Heck, even Buu, which seems to not be very popular judging from the responses on here, was a great finale to the series. I actually thought it was the second best saga in the series (Incoming people telling me I'm an idiot for choosing the Buu Saga over the Saiyans or Cell... Frieza Saga being my #1 favorite). I'm glad the series is continuing, and I can't wait to see where things go next. July's going to be a great month for us Dragon Ball fans (And not the fans that just whine about everything that happened post-Frieza Saga).

 

Also, I'd be pissed off if my favorite character ended off the series having been completely defeated by Frieza. The Prince of the Saiyans would deserve a much greater ending.

[Xer 670]

Thank god it never ended. I got to see the Broly movies.