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Fates Chance XIII

Rikus relationship with Repliku, Xion, and Roxas

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I think he didn't try talking to Roxas because it was already decided in Another side, Another story. They have to fight, and it's canon that they fight by the time KH2 came out. (Unless they retconned the whole thing, which would be ridiculous even by KH standards.) He tries reasoning with Xion because she was written in after the fact and the writers wanted to make it all tragic and junk; plus, Riku would look like a huge dick if he basically kidnapped a girl and ended her life just to wake his friend up from a coma. I sincerely don't believe it had anything to do with Riku rationalizing or deciding fates or any of that.

 

(Honestly, one of the reasons I don't like Xion is she's essentially a monkey wrench thrown into a story that already worked fine without her.)

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I was going for a more metaphysical reading of what Riku is doing. Not really looking at what the developers intentions were, or they had to do it because it was canon. I meant a more, "Lets analyze this characters motivations, reasoning, and thought processes for why he chose a certain action over another equally viable option." This thread isn't about the game, its about critically reading the story the game presented as is, in tact, authorial intent thrown out.

Edited by Fates Chance XIII

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This isn't a thread about SE making things complicated by adding Xion into the story! There are a million other threads talking about that, with people who really want to talk about it! If you wanna talk about that, go post in those threads. This is a thread about analyzing the story as presented, if you don't have any comments pertaining to the topic at hand, please do NOT post things in attempt to derail the conversation.

 

Now, do either of you have any comments on your critical examination of Rikus motivations in this game? If not, I respectfully ask you to leave this thread.

Edited by Fates Chance XIII

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I was going for a more metaphysical reading of what Riku is doing. Not really looking at what the developers intentions were, or they had to do it because it was canon. I meant a more, "Lets analyze this characters motivations, reasoning, and thought processes for why he chose a certain action over another equally viable option." This thread isn't about the game, its about critically reading the story the game presented as is, in tact, authorial intent thrown out.

 

It's not even really a game development thing, It's a story continuity thing. The reason Riku doesn't try to reason with Roxas isn't because they were going for any kind of angle, it's because it was already decided two games ago that he doesn't and they fight. It's be really weird if Riku actually had met with Roxas to try and explain things to him and then they later also fought at Memory's Skyscraper. (It's already bad enough that Riku apparently knew who Roxas was and could use the Keyblade and yet was shocked when he fought him and he could totally use the Keyblade.)

 

If you want to speculate on why Riku did things the way he did, that's fine, but I guarantee you;re looking deeper into this than any of the writers did.

 

This isn't a thread about SE making things complicated by adding Xion into the story! There are a million other threads talking about that, with people who really want to talk about it! If you wanna talk about that, go post in those threads. This is a thread about analyzing the story as presented, if you don't have any comments pertaining to the topic at hand, please do NOT post things in attempt to derail the conversation.

 

Now, do either of you have any comments on your critical examination of Rikus motivations in this game? If not, I respectfully ask you to leave this thread.

 

 

Dude, calm down, I've stayed very on topic.

Edited by HeyMouseSayCheese

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I like to analyze stories and characters and have conversations about them, what can I say. But they had a lot of options on how they would tackle how Riku would react to the new puppet. They could've had him to be hunting Xion and Roxas the entire time, or have an epic battle against the two of them and have Riku strike Xion down, retreat to TWTNW, have Roxas follow him there and have their battle then. They had options as to what they could do to land in that final battle. But they had already set up that Riku had history with another puppet, and had shown pity and sympathy towards it. It wouldn't have made much sense for Riku to turn around in Days and hate Xion to his very core and strike her down in rage. That wouldn't make sense with what had been previously established with his character. Character emotions, character opinions, and prejudices have to line up with their actions or it wont make much sense in the story-leading to a whole other slew of continuity problems. This is story making 101. I expect they have some very good story concept people who know all this on staff creating the scripts, and stories and most importantly, how the characters interact on screen. When you make a story, you have to assume that people will look at it critically and ask why characters did certain things. Nothing (at least nothing done by good writers) is done willy nilly and half hazard.

 

All the pieces have to line up, so I refuse to believe that the writers didn't examine how their characters actions related to their characters 'look deep' into what they were creating. Call the KH story creators work what you want, but nothing they did in this story is half hazard. This story-when looked at in entirety- is very tightly written and well done. They aren't hacks who do things at random and with out reason.

Edited by Fates Chance XIII

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Im sorry if I came on a little intense there. But I have had in the past so many of these kinds of threads turned into a character or story bashing flame war (especially when xion is mentioned) that when you mentioned things like xion being unimportant and ect I was like "NOPE, not again. Laying down the law." I would just really like to have this discussion without it getting derailed like that for once is all.

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It's not even really a game development thing, It's a story continuity thing. The reason Riku doesn't try to reason with Roxas isn't because they were going for any kind of angle, it's because it was already decided two games ago that he doesn't and they fight. It's be really weird if Riku actually had met with Roxas to try and explain things to him and then they later also fought at Memory's Skyscraper. (It's already bad enough that Riku apparently knew who Roxas was and could use the Keyblade and yet was shocked when he fought him and he could totally use the Keyblade.)

 

If you want to speculate on why Riku did things the way he did, that's fine, but I guarantee you;re looking deeper into this than any of the writers did.

 
 

 

Dude, calm down, I've stayed very on topic.

What he's trying to say is that the way you're approaching it is different from where he's approaching it. You're looking at it from the standpoint of "well, they showed this happening in one game, so it'll happen no matter what". The perspective he's looking through is "How did it get to this point? Let's follow the pieces that lead up to this." And in all fairness, I think you kind of are complicating the conversation. Fates is trying to analyze these characters as characters, while you seem to be analyzing them as tools for a story. There's nothing wrong with doing either, but in this case when the focus is meant to be on just one way of looking at them, I feel that it is kind of getting things off track and it really disregards every point that Fates brought up till this point. Let's just try to analyze this with what he said in mind and leave the more real life perspective standpoint for another time. Ok?

 

As for this topic, I find it just as interesting as well. I believe I remember Nomura explaining Riku's initial hostility towards Roxas as him trying to cope with the idea that Sora would even have a Nobody. Apparently it was a terrible thing to have one I guess. This idea always confused me a bit because the concept of a Nobody never felt like something to be hated to me, it felt more like something to be pitied. Add to the fact Riku's learned experiences with Xion and his Replica, and it kind of confuses me even more. But I guess the main thing to keep in mind the whole time is that he's doing everything he can to wake Sora up, but he's finding it difficult to get what he wants in the way that he'd most rather do it. If anything, he'd probably want both Xion and Roxas to go back to Sora willingly, but if DiZ could have his way Riku would have already kidnapped them and forced them back into Sora. But I think what really helps Riku try to make sense about all of this and try to approach things in his own way was by listening to Namine. She too realized that Roxas would have no other choice but to go back to Sora, yet every bit of news she gave to Riku stung with regret that waking Sora up would even have to result in ending someone else's existence. It doesn't feel like Riku has a deep-seeded hatred for all Nobodies like DiZ does, he treats Namine as a good friend and Xion as a human being, despite knowing the fact that as a Replica, status-wise, she's supposed to be even "lesser" than a Nobody. Though this only occurs in the manga, I like to consider the conversation Riku had with Roxas in Twilight Town as headcanon, as it has a nice soft touch of zen for the whole moment without feeling too confrontational. That and it kind of helps with my next theory.

 

Maybe Riku actually does care about Roxas in the same way that he cared for Xion, Namine, and Repliku in the end. Even though he's antagonizing Roxas during the whole fight, the scene where he explains why he's in Roxas' way still has him explaining how bad of an idea it would be for Roxas to take on the Organization as he was right then. Sure, a good chunk of it was motivated by the fact that if Roxas is destroyed, Sora would never wake up, but I always felt that I've picked up on a small bit of sincere concern from Riku about letting someone else blindly walk into a doomed fate. So in a sense, Riku did care about Roxas getting hurt, but he still had a mission to uphold and a friend to save from slumber. But I believe another  big motivation for Riku's attitude toward Roxas was the fact that he was trying to deny that Roxas was really Sora's Nobody the whole time. Nomura's statement didn't make that much sense to me at first, since the whole logic of Body-Heartless=Nobody felt very obvious to me. But then it occurred to me that perhaps Sora was all Riku saw in Roxas the handful of times he had met him. Whether he was a piece of Sora that had to be returned or an independent being, a part of Riku must have sensed his best friend in the boy and thus he must have felt a lot of discomfort and guilt in having to deal with him, knowing that he would have to cause him to give up his independence. He probably dreaded having to fight him too, he had already fought Sora so many times in the past while he was blinded by Darkness, so the idea of having to fight Sora once again pained him greatly. I think that's why he's been distant from Roxas and why he denies what he really is for most of the time, he's in denial of the fact that his best friend is staring him in the face and that he has to end his existence. Sure, it would bring Sora back, but he still would be hurting Sora in a way. Add to that his obligation to Xion's last wish to protect Roxas, and you've got one of the guiltiest final bosses in the series.

 

It's hard to say exactly how all the complications of a character's motivations work as they happen, but at the very least it's easy to tell how they started and how they ended up, and by this point I think it's safe to say that Riku has gotten past most of that by the end of DDD. He even refers to Roxas as his own person just as Sora does, so I think that says a lot about how far he's gotten like everyone else.

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When it comes to riku fighting roxas, we have to rememeber that roxas didnt have an existential crisis the same way that he did in KH2, he was content living those 350 days with his his best friends, questions of sora came up, but they didnt bother him the same way that they did in KH2. Xion on the other hand knew what she was to an extent and wanted to find out. What exactly she was and why she was created. Riku shows pity to people who doubt themselves, or go out of their way to prove that they exist,like he did in KH1. throughout 358, roxas showed no signs of either of those, he just wanted to go back to the way things were. Roxas' thought process wouldnt necessarily allow riku to reason with roxas in regards to sora ESPECIALLY since roxas was hell bent on destroying Kingdom hearts when they met on the 358th day, but with xion, riku could lead her down the path that would bring her back to sora through words, not actions. But things do take a different turn in riku' actions towards roxas in KH2, he truely pities him in this state, being forced to live his final week of life in a simulated world knowing full well that he is going to "cease to exist" at the end of it, at this point roxas has his "whole life" begin to come into question, he questions his reality and goes plato's"The Cave" on us as he has to deal with both existential crises in both the waking realm and in therealm of sleep as he is dreaming about someone who isnt him, norsomeone he has never met yet feels he is somehow connected to. But you are right in the way that riku distances himself away from his actions, you can even look at him going ansem SOD as the ultimate way of doing so, how else do you excuse your evil actions than take on the form of someone evil.

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Riku never was cold towards Roxas.

He fought him because he had to.  He had tried to convince Xion to come on her own, but by the time she had decided Org. XIII made it's move to make her and Roxas fight each other and she had faded away.  She decided to go away but not the peaceful way that was intended.

Sora had been asleep for almost a year now.  Xion was gone, returning Sora's memories within her to Roxas.  Roxas was distraught and about to stupidly try to take on the Organization.

Riku didn't have a choice in the matter.  Either he stopped Roxas or risked loosing Sora's memories and all hope of waking him up.  Roxas wasn't exactly going to listen to reason at this point.  Riku flat out tells him he's there for Sora's memories and Roxas just gets frustrated and tells him to shut up.

He wasn't antagonizing anybody.  He wished they all had a chance to exist on their own.  Riku's the smart one remember?  He knows when somethings not right.  When DiZ puts him into the digital Twilight Town he asks him what will happen to Roxas and replies "poor thing."  He regrets the entire situation.  He falls back on not telling him anything in order to let him live out a semi-peaceful life before he has to disappear even if it's only for a few days, "It's best he doesn't know the truth."

If his attempts to let Xion decide her own fate are anything to go by, he can't stand how DiZ does things.  He follows his orders for the most part for the sake of waking Sora, but anything else he ignores.  Like getting rid of Namine.  He can't stand DiZ's obsession with revenge.  He knows it's wrong.  He knows that he just wants to wake Sora in order to use him.  But if it's to help Sora awaken again he'll do what ever he can.

Edited by khoathkeeper13

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Something has been stewing in my mind lately and I want to hear you guys thoughts.

 

I was rewatching the cutscenes from ReCom, and Days and I noticed something about Rikus relationships with Repliku, Xion and Roxas.

 

Lets go in order of him meeting them:

 

He first meets the Repliku in Com and treats him like his enemy giving him no sympathy until the very end when Riku kills him in Twilight Town. I mean I don't really blame him, Repliku is constantly attacking him and treats him very hostile. But you really do see a shift in Rikus view of this puppet in its final moments. Even going so far as to maybe pity and show some sympathy- giving Repliku a hope that his existence will go where ever Rikus heart would end up, rather than simply disappearing.

 

I never really thought about this much until I rewatched Days and really critically looked at Rikus relationship with Roxas and another puppet being of course Xion.

 

When ever I saw Riku and Xion interacting, I noticed that their was almost a softness to the way Riku treated her. At first I thought maybe it was just because she looks like Kairi, and Riku having a nostalgic fondness for her appearance. Making him treat her nicer than he might've. But then it hit me when Namine told Riku about Xion and how she and Roxas needs to disappear.

 

He seemed at least to me, to be reluctant to do it. Like he didn't like the thought of it at all but would go along with it because it would wake up Sora. But look at what he does after this. Riku could've just done what he did with Roxas and take her back by force. I mean there is a point where he is holding her unconscious in his arms! He had the perfect opportunity to do it but he chose to talk to her instead. He chose to try and convince her to come back to Sora rather than take her by force. And he even leaves the option open for her to not come back. He lets her go and make her own decision to either come with him or stay with her friends. Although what he would've done if she chose to not come back is a topic for another day...

 

I mean Xion held Soras memories of KAIRI, one of the most important persons to Sora. She holds the key to waking Sora up. You would think knowing all this that Riku would go to any lengths necessary, collateral damage and all, to get those memories back. 

 

Compare how he treats Roxas to see what I mean.

 

 When I watched the end of Days and their fight, this is what I expected Riku to be like towards Xion. Pretty unsympathetic, goal oriented, distant, and cold.

 

I mean the entire time they are on screen together, Riku doesn't even say Roxas name. He refers to Roxas as 'he', 'thing', and - although jokingly- as Sora. The closest he gets to naming Roxas is to call him "his (soras) Nobody"

Do you know what this implies? This is evidence of Riku trying to distance himself from what he is doing. He is trying to depersonalize Roxas so that he (riku) will not feel as bad about what he is doing. It is a mental defense mechanism to help him cope.

 

I mean, he could've gone the route he took with Xion and tried to talk to him instead. I mean there is a great scene in the Manga where he talks to Roxas but doesn't tell him about Sora. I mean, Roxas wants to know who Sora is by the end, why he has the Keyblade, and who he is. Riku could've promised him answers; told him about Sora, and his relation to him (roxas) and how he would be complete going back to him, and how Sora would fulfil Xions and Roxas last wish of freeing Kingdom hearts. But he doesn't, he takes him by force.

 

At the end of the fight in Days, Riku reflects on this saying things could've been different if Roxas knew about Sora. And then, throughout the beginning of KH2, Riku says it is better that Roxas not know, that he receive his fate to return to Sora unwillingly-the COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF HOW HE ACTED TOWARDS XION!

 

I began to think, why is he doing this? Why is he treating them so different? It would've been so much easier to just take Xion and Roxas back by force and have Sora wake up sooner, right? I think Rikus exp with Repliku is the reason he treated Xion so softly. He saw Repliku go to really extreme lengths just to have his own existence and being, going so far as to try to kill him. And I think the memory of having to strike Repliku down is what  bred a sympathy for these puppet creatures. They never even had a say in their own creation or destiny. They were created to be tools to use til broken, nothing more. And maybe Riku in a small way can relate to that, having had been used as a tool by Ansem SoD. Maybe he wanted to give this puppet, for once in its life, the choice of what its fate would be.

 

 But that didn't explain why he treated Roxas so coldly even from the beginning. I think it is because Riku perhaps felt he had no other choice. That by the time he had to confront Roxas there was no other way to get him to come with him. But again, he knew that both of them had to return to Sora in Days so he could've just TALKED TO ROXAS IN DAYS or HAD XION TALK TO HIM ABOUT IT!

 

But he didn't, which lead to my next theory that, Riku at least at the beginning harbored a bit of hate towards Roxas. I mean, if you recall Ansem the Wise apologized to Roxas, Riku never did, even to say it to Sora hoping Roxas could hear him. I think that perhaps Riku looked at Roxas and saw him just as DiZ saw him: someone who should disappear who had no right to even be. That Roxas was a part of Sora and had no say about where he belonged. Roxas was Sora and his destiny was to go back.

 

Riku maybe saw him as an obstacle to Sora waking, and his destruction as a means to an end, instead of  seeing him as the person who he was. Which led to a tragic irony that, in trying to not treat the puppet Xion  like a tool, he came to treat Roxas like a tool. Or perhaps he just took on this way of treating him as a mechanism to rationalize what he had to do: end an existence to save another. 

 

It really is rather tragic, and really human in a way. He had no right answer in how he treated these two people. He couldn't let them live, and he didn't want to make them die, but he had to make a choice. He chose his friends, the ones he loved. And really, what would so many real people do if faced with that situation? I think we kinda forgot that Days really tells the story of not only Roxas and Xion and Axel, but of Riku too. Of his struggle to make the right choice, and decide the fates of three people.

 

What do you guys think? I think RIkus side of the story in Days is one that really gets ignored in discussions and I would love to hear your thoughts.

All of this is so true. I agree with you.

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I think it is fascinating that Riku chose not telling Roxas anything when he was in the virtual Twilight Town as the best choice. I mean, it really come down to a very philosophical debate. Its like:

 

Would you rather be blissfully ignorant of your imminent death at the end of the week at the hands of someone you don't know for a cause no one will tell you about?

 

Or

 

Would you rather be told that you're going to die and told for what reason and what cause?

Ok I know roxas didn't die but it sounded better for the example

 

I mean, Roxas was going to find out that he was going to disappear when the time came regardless. Lets say Axel never found a way into the virtual Twilight Town. Lets say he never got to even talk to Roxas before he disappeared. Roxas lived out his happy last days of summer, having weird dreams, doing his homework and hanging out with his friends. Then, at the end, he is taken to Sora, and forced to return (and as far as he would be able to tell at that point, he was going to die) and not told what was going on.

 

Do you honestly, truly believe that that would be better? Imagine how scared he would be, how confused and angry. He would think that he is going to die at the hands of some psycho for no reason! That...that actually is really scary to imagine that happening to someone.

 

If I was in Roxas situation, if I was doomed to die for a cause, even if I couldn't change my fate, I would most definitely want to know why this was happening to me. I think I, and Roxas would deserve that much. But that is just me, if you think the blissful ignorance is better that's fine. But I think from how Roxas acted in KH2, he wouldve wanted to be told.

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Remember that DiZ was really deciding these things.  He wouldn't trust Roxas, a Nobody, with any kind of information that might cause him to lash out and try to escape.  Just because he wants to be told doesn't mean he could've accepted it right away.  They had to wake Sora.  Namine said that both him and Xion fought too hard to become their own persons.  Roxas in both his fight with Riku and confrontation with DiZ emphasized that he was his own person.

Riku more than likely didn't believe Roxas would understand at this point.  That he would just lash out and be every bit as upset as he was in the last day.  That would be both awful for Roxas and extremely difficult for reconstructing Sora's memories when Roxas is freaking the heck out.

I'm going to go with the ignorance is bliss option here.  Everything about the virtual Twilight Town was things that had made Roxas happy.  He was up on the clock tower eating ice cream with friends.  They were on summer vacation and they tried to go to the beach at least.  Roxas was going to disappear, telling him wouldn't change that. plus DiZ was a big jerk

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Agree at some point. Wouldn't like it if it were to happen to me. Come on, left out in the dark not really knowing what is going on until to a point of death (sorta) that you realised everything was planned to have you destroyed all this time. Obviously when a lot of strange things happening and nobody is there to explain to you is going to be damn frustrating, even for myself.

 

Well, back to the topic. I don't think Riku was being cold to Roxas. At certain point in KH2, we can actually see that Riku was uncomfortable and didn't like how Diz is treating Roxas and Namine. You know, the train and the beach scene? He questioned Diz on why he showed the train as to make Roxas look like a lunatic and why won't he just create a simulated beach so that Roxas would have a happy vacation with his friends. These scenes for example really showed Riku actually cares for Roxas. 

 

Also, I do like to recount the fight scene in the Days manga right before Riku turned to Ansem, he did apologise to Roxas beforehand. I'm not sure why his actions with Xion is slightly different than Roxas, maybe because Xion looked like Kairi so he was gentler perhaps? Initially he was being a jerk to Xion by fighting with her in Beast's Castle, calling her a sham and saying her Keyblade is a fake and worthless. But later he had a different tune and became nicer to her, maybe because she too questioned her existence, and all the weirds dreams she kept having made her seek answers from Riku and that in return mellowed him down a bit towards Xion.

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