My friend's time travel inconsistency argument

[Drones 58]

He tells me that time travel doesn't make any sense and uses Timeless River as an example. According to him it doesn't make any sense how Sora can travel to this time since he does not leave a body behind. The rest of the laws of time in Kingdom Hearts also do not apply in Timeless River. I thought this was interesting, because it does seem as though this is inconsistent. Timeless River is said to be Disney Castle's past along with the same people so it's not like it's a different universe, it's the same world in a different time.

 

 

[HeyMouseSayCheese 1,133]

No, see it's a SPECIAL DOOR. That makes it all okay!

 

(or it's just another of like a thousand things that don't make sense thanks to constant retconning)

[hatok 6,413]

It's about the method. The Timeless River is accessed through a door, the method Yen Sid and Xehanort use involves going back to a point where your body already exists

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

Well, keep in mind that this was before Nomura invented a formal concept of time travel for Kingdom Hearts. Basically, Merlin is described to be a wizard who occasionally travels through time. He's displayed these powers a few times in the series. He conjures time doors, creates a special plane for Lea to train in, and if you examine his books in Hallow Bastion in KH2 it says that they are about Merlin's adventures and THE FUTURE... Well, technically we only see him actually do one of these things, but basically the point that's given across is that Merlin uses his magic to dabble in time travel every now and then. Now it seems apparent that the methods of time travel Merlin are using are different than the formal methods that Young Xehanort described. Yes, nobody had to give up their bodies (and I hate how vague they are being about whether Donald and Goofy originated there or not. Because with all of the confusion that the possible nature of The Country of the Musketeers is causing, I honestly don't know what to believe right now. ) and it's easy to both come and go between past and future. However, keep in mind that the worlds where the first to create a door. For Pete. After hearing Pete's desire to go back to his past so that he might change for the better, they conjured a doorway so that he may do that, much like how they supply Sora with the Final Door to face Xemnas. However, Pete and Maleficent had evil intentions and quickly took advantage of the worlds' gift. So maybe Merlin used his magic to convince the worlds to give them a second door, provided that Sora, Donald, and Goofy don't change the future like how Pete was trying to. That being said, maybe they couldn't rely on the same trick twice to do a Mark of Mastery exam, and Xehanort is the last person that the worlds would just give a door to. So perhaps the 3D method of time travel is a more reliable self-executed one, sort of like how dark beings use Corridors of Darkness of their own volition. It has it's rules, but the worlds can't say "no".

 

This is all just theory though. Mostly, it's just due to the fact that this was before Nomura wanted to make time travel a huge plot element for the series, so in KH2 it didn't need much explaining. It was just sort of thrown in there in a straight-forward fashion. But since he's decided to make something that's established and structured by rules for the whole series to work, he may have to go back and make some stuff up just to keep from retconning everything. But it's not that big of a deal, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[Drones 58]

It's about the method. The Timeless River is accessed through a door, the method Yen Sid and Xehanort use involves going back to a point where your body already exists

 

I told him this before posting and it still doesn't make it right.

Well, keep in mind that this was before Nomura invented a formal concept of time travel for Kingdom Hearts. Basically, Merlin is described to be a wizard who occasionally travels through time. He's displayed these powers a few times in the series. He conjures time doors, creates a special plane for Lea to train in, and if you examine his books in Hallow Bastion in KH2 it says that they are about Merlin's adventures and THE FUTURE... Well, technically we only see him actually do one of these things, but basically the point that's given across is that Merlin uses his magic to dabble in time travel every now and then. Now it seems apparent that the methods of time travel Merlin are using are different than the formal methods that Young Xehanort described. Yes, nobody had to give up their bodies (and I hate how vague they are being about whether Donald and Goofy originated there or not. Because with all of the confusion that the possible nature of The Country of the Musketeers is causing, I honestly don't know what to believe right now. ) and it's easy to both come and go between past and future. However, keep in mind that the worlds where the first to create a door. For Pete. After hearing Pete's desire to go back to his past so that he might change for the better, they conjured a doorway so that he may do that, much like how they supply Sora with the Final Door to face Xemnas. However, Pete and Maleficent had evil intentions and quickly took advantage of the worlds' gift. So maybe Merlin used his magic to convince the worlds to give them a second door, provided that Sora, Donald, and Goofy don't change the future like how Pete was trying to. That being said, maybe they couldn't rely on the same trick twice to do a Mark of Mastery exam, and Xehanort is the last person that the worlds would just give a door to. So perhaps the 3D method of time travel is a more reliable self-executed one, sort of like how dark beings use Corridors of Darkness of their own volition. It has it's rules, but the worlds can't say "no".

 

This is all just theory though. Mostly, it's just due to the fact that this was before Nomura wanted to make time travel a huge plot element for the series, so in KH2 it didn't need much explaining. It was just sort of thrown in there in a straight-forward fashion. But since he's decided to make something that's established and structured by rules for the whole series to work, he may have to go back and make some stuff up just to keep from retconning everything. But it's not that big of a deal, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

He always has to retcon something after every game he makes... that's why he should have went straight to KH3. I don't know if I will call this a plot hole yet because it would make his story look like shit, this is definitely a big deal.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Drones

[Aqua7KH 5,395]

It's about the method. The Timeless River is accessed through a door, the method Yen Sid and Xehanort use involves going back to a point where your body already exists

This. Sora and co. stepped through a portal through time, which is the Special Door that I believe Merlin or Yen Sid described it as dangerous, meaning it has magical capabilities that they don't really understand. Xeahnort travels through time by leaving his body and entering into a past or future self.

[hatok 6,413]

It's also worth noting that there seem to be rules and risks related to time travel. In Final Mix, using that door causes a portal that lets Sora find Terra, something about it being due to the past. I'm willing to bet that because of unstable risks like that Xehanort chose this, more reliable, form of time travel

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

I told him this before posting and it still doesn't make it right. He always has to retcon something after every game he makes... that's why he should have went straight to KH3. I don't know if I will call this a plot hole yet because it would make his story look like shit, this is definitely a big deal.

He hasn't necessarily retconned anything yet though. He's just changed what we all perceived it to be. He hasn't been very straightforward with a lot of things in the series. It's not like he had everything planned out from the beginning, but he may have left some things intentionally unexplained to leave room for some plot points like this. Maybe. There's no problem with him having put 3 off this long. Not to me anyway.If anything, the only retcon I can say for certain is actually there is that Pete was not banished by Mickey, but by Minnie. Or the fact that Donald and Goofy forgot that the Tower is where Yen Sid lives (well, maybe that could be excused, you tend to forget a lot of things after that amount of time. However, for all I know they've been there with the King a lot...)...okay, and maybe the Nobodies having hearts thing, but honestly the blatant lie fits with Xehanort's character, so I have no problem with it.So far though, everything else that we thought was "changed" just wasn't explained that much till recently.But one thing I'm wondering that either hasn't been explained yet or was just a creative oversight, if the Artifical Heartless were created by Xehanort and the other apprentices, then why are there Emblem Heartless in Kingdom Hearts X(Chi)? Unless they come from the future too?Well anyway, I don't have much problems with retcons in general so long as there is an explanation behind them or they just sort of fix themselves.