THIS BOTHERS ME

[hatok 6,413]

In Aqua's reports in the Realm of Darkness is refers to the Shadows, Neoshadows and Darkballs as "Heartless"

MY CANON IS RUINED

Not only does this take place before the Heartless were given an official name, Kairi has no way of knowing about them, and in this context they really should have just called them "creatures of darkness" or something

blegh

 

[Forever 3,550]

What?

[Jim 2,990]

I'd say that it's probably just an oversight by the writers.

 

That being said, the report probably isn't a canon plot element, and it's just something to help the player keep track of what's going on.

 

But yeah, I do see what you're saying. It is weird haha

[BlankShell 638]

Bleig says "deal with it".

[KH4Real 749]

Yea what? I think they are just heartless.. Yen Sid may have invented that name.

[Oathion 37]

Technically, Heartless did exist then. They always had. They were born from the darkness of people's hearts before and after BBS. If you remember in BBS, there were a few instances were the Heartless were introduced as existing. When Eraquis informed Aqua and Terra of the new threat known as Unversed. Though while indirect, this implied the Unversed weren't the only threat to light. They all knew the Heartless as a viewed threat. When Aqua was in the RoD, she faced Darksides from all corners and seemed to recognize them. Don't confuse this with the Red Eye Heartless. Remember, pureblood Heartless had always existed but Emblem Heartless were created by Xehanort himself. Then, the most obvious example, Xehanort summoned Neoshadows (Purebloods but still Heartless) to attack Ven. They were aware of the existence of Heartless. Wether or not they were named is irrelevant, they knew of their existence and threat. Still odds are by then, they had been properly named. I mean come on, they've been around longer then Xehanort. They must've been named by then.

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

To be fair, we're never given any indication as to how "canon" any journals other than Jiminy's are. For all we know, the Trinity Reports could be nothing more than a game mechanic and they don't exist at all. So really, it shouldn't matter if the reports call them Heartless or not, because Aqua and the others might not be seeing the reports to begin with. Plus, if they aren't canon and are just there for the sake of the player keeping track of details, then what's the point of beating around the bush? We know they're Heartless, why try to pretend we don't know what they are? Also, what does Kairi have to do with this? Did you mean Aqua?

Edited January 6, 2015 by Hero of Light XIV

[Neptune Vasilias 340]

Maybe Master Eraqus's Keyblade is feeding here knowledge of a Land lost in time........DUN DUN DUUUUUNNNNNNNN

[RoxSox 3,593]

The Journals are there for the benefit of the player, not canon elements of the characters knowledge. In KH2 you have all the journal entried relevant to the opening part of Roxas, something Jiminy should have no knowledge of. The apprentices were once Bleig, Dilin, and Lenzo weren't they.

 

And what does Kairi have to do with it?

[hatok 6,413]

  On 1/5/2015 at 11:58 PM, Jim said:

I'd say that it's probably just an oversight by the writers.

 

That being said, the report probably isn't a canon plot element, and it's just something to help the player keep track of what's going on.

 

But yeah, I do see what you're saying. It is weird haha

Not being canon doesn't mean it should spoil plot points from the future. It's not like the description of Sora says "One day he's going to have the keyblade Terra intended for Riku!"

 

  On 1/6/2015 at 12:28 AM, BlankShell said:

Bleig says "deal with it".

They fixed that though

 

  On 1/6/2015 at 12:33 AM, KH4Real said:

Yea what? I think they are just heartless.. Yen Sid may have invented that name.

Well first off, even if Yen Sid invented the name, there's no reason why that would appear in Aqua's reports. But beyond that, the person who came up with the name Heartless was Xehanort's Heartless

 

  On 1/6/2015 at 12:42 AM, Oathion said:

Technically, Heartless did exist then. They always had. They were born from the darkness of people's hearts before and after BBS. If you remember in BBS, there were a few instances were the Heartless were introduced as existing. When Eraquis informed Aqua and Terra of the new threat known as Unversed. Though while indirect, this implied the Unversed weren't the only threat to light. They all knew the Heartless as a viewed threat. When Aqua was in the RoD, she faced Darksides from all corners and seemed to recognize them. Don't confuse this with the Red Eye Heartless. Remember, pureblood Heartless had always existed but Emblem Heartless were created by Xehanort himself. Then, the most obvious example, Xehanort summoned Neoshadows (Purebloods but still Heartless) to attack Ven. They were aware of the existence of Heartless. Wether or not they were named is irrelevant, they knew of their existence and threat. Still odds are by then, they had been properly named. I mean come on, they've been around longer then Xehanort. They must've been named by then.

Heartless have existed,yes, but only in the Realm of Darkness. The forces of darkness in question refer to people who have been consumed by darkness, like Disney villains. If Heartless actually existed in many worlds they would multiply and consume the world. Anyways, they didn't recieve an official name until Apprentice Xehanort named them during research

 

  On 1/6/2015 at 12:56 AM, Hero of Light XIV said:

To be fair, we're never given any indication as to how "canon" any journals other than Jiminy's are. For all we know, the Trinity Reports could be nothing more than a game mechanic and they don't exist at all. So really, it shouldn't matter if the reports call them Heartless or not, because Aqua and the others might not be seeing the reports to begin with. Plus, if they aren't canon and are just there for the sake of the player keeping track of details, then what's the point of beating around the bush? We know they're Heartless, why try to pretend we don't know what they are? Also, what does Kairi have to do with this? Did you mean Aqua?

It doesn't really matter if they're canon, they just need to exist in the time that the person experienced them. The journals have only ever recorded things that the player experiences, this would be like if the journal entries in CoM called the villains of that Nobodies and members of Organization XIII

and yes, I meant Aqua

in my defense, they're both undeveloped female keyblade wielders with the same hairstyle and a name based on water

 

  On 1/6/2015 at 1:08 AM, Neptune Vasilias said:

Maybe Master Eraqus's Keyblade is feeding here knowledge of a Land lost in time........DUN DUN DUUUUUNNNNNNNN

But his keyblade would have no idea what a Heartless is

 

  On 1/6/2015 at 1:21 AM, RoxSox said:

The Journals are there for the benefit of the player, not canon elements of the characters knowledge. In KH2 you have all the journal entried relevant to the opening part of Roxas, something Jiminy should have no knowledge of. The apprentices were once Bleig, Dilin, and Lenzo weren't they.

 

And what does Kairi have to do with it?

but they cover details you the player saw. Even if they don't make sense from Sora's perspective, they only record information, they don't how us anything new

[RoxSox 3,593]

  On 1/6/2015 at 1:26 AM, hatok said:

Not being canon doesn't mean it should spoil plot points from the future. It's not like the description of Sora says "One day he's going to have the keyblade Terra intended for Riku!"

 

but they cover details you the player saw. Even if they don't make sense from Sora's perspective, they only record information, they don't how us anything new

 

Just because Birth by Sleep is a chronological prequel, doesn't mean it's meant to be played before the other games. Any person with an interest in playing Kingdom Hearts has almost definitely played KH1 or KH2 before they played BBS, meaning they know damn well what a Heartless is. And even then, it means nothing without context, and it's not like the identity of a heartless was ever some big secret to be revealed in KH1. I really don't understand how this is a big deal.

[Kaweebo 3,617]

Scratch that. The person above me already said what I wanted to. 

Edited January 6, 2015 by Kaweebo

[Tails 6,692]

I don't see why this is such a big deal. I honestly think you should get over it instead of complaining about something so minor.

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

  On 1/6/2015 at 1:26 AM, hatok said:

Not being canon doesn't mean it should spoil plot points from the future. It's not like the description of Sora says "One day he's going to have the keyblade Terra intended for Riku!" They fixed that though Well first off, even if Yen Sid invented the name, there's no reason why that would appear in Aqua's reports. But beyond that, the person who came up with the name Heartless was Xehanort's Heartless Heartless have existed,yes, but only in the Realm of Darkness. The forces of darkness in question refer to people who have been consumed by darkness, like Disney villains. If Heartless actually existed in many worlds they would multiply and consume the world. Anyways, they didn't recieve an official name until Apprentice Xehanort named them during research It doesn't really matter if they're canon, they just need to exist in the time that the person experienced them. The journals have only ever recorded things that the player experiences, this would be like if the journal entries in CoM called the villains of that Nobodies and members of Organization XIIIand yes, I meant Aquain my defense, they're both undeveloped female keyblade wielders with the same hairstyle and a name based on water But his keyblade would have no idea what a Heartless is but they cover details you the player saw. Even if they don't make sense from Sora's perspective, they only record information, they don't how us anything new

You keep forgetting one thing though. All of those worked chronologically because that just happened to be the order they were released in. Birth by Sleep may have taken place the furthest back in the time line, but it still came out long after Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II have been released. Chain of Memories didn't use the term Nobodies because the term didn't exist until a game later (but the name had already been created by that point in the time line). All reports other than Jiminy's Journal are supposed to be read from an outsider's perspective, likely the gamer's. So it doesn't matter that the Heartless weren't known by anyone as the "Heartless" back then, we already know what they are so there's no point in playing pretend when it doesn't even affect the main character's knowledge. If the report was clearly in Aqua's perspective, THEN I would feel that this was a problem. But since it isn't, then it makes no difference to me whether the Heartless are referred to as "the Heartless", "those without hearts", "dark beings", or "lippy-tappy-too-tah", I already know what they are and the character never does. The Trinity Reports may as well be the Fourth Wall itself.

[hatok 6,413]

  On 1/6/2015 at 1:34 AM, RoxSox said:

Just because Birth by Sleep is a chronological prequel, doesn't mean it's meant to be played before the other games. Any person with an interest in playing Kingdom Hearts has almost definitely played KH1 or KH2 before they played BBS, meaning they know damn well what a Heartless is. And even then, it means nothing without context, and it's not like the identity of a heartless was ever some big secret to be revealed in KH1. I really don't understand how this is a big deal.

  On 1/6/2015 at 2:32 AM, Kaweebo said:

Scratch that. The person above me already said what I wanted to. 

Doesn't matter. I value attention to detail, and in this case the correct thing to do would be to not give these creatures their proper name. They should be written as an unknown, like they are at that point in the story

 

  On 1/6/2015 at 2:45 AM, Tails said:

I don't see why this is such a big deal. I honestly think you should get over it instead of complaining about something so minor.

Because th OP is totally taking this situation very seriously

 

  On 1/6/2015 at 2:53 AM, Hero of Light XIV said:

You keep forgetting one thing though. All of those worked chronologically because that just happened to be the order they were released in. Birth by Sleep may have taken place the furthest back in the time line, but it still came out long after Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II have been released. Chain of Memories didn't use the term Nobodies because the term didn't exist until a game later (but the name had already been created by that point in the time line). All reports other than Jiminy's Journal are supposed to be read from an outsider's perspective, likely the gamer's. So it doesn't matter that the Heartless weren't known by anyone as the "Heartless" back then, we already know what they are so there's no point in playing pretend when it doesn't even affect the main character's knowledge. If the report was clearly in Aqua's perspective, THEN I would feel that this was a problem. But since it isn't, then it makes no difference to me whether the Heartless are referred to as "the Heartless", "those without hearts", "dark beings", or "lippy-tappy-too-tah", I already know what they are and the character never does. The Trinity Reports may as well be the Fourth Wall itself.

Well let's use another example. 358/2 Days was released after KH2, and developed alongside BBS and Coded. Despite this, it doesn't explain plot points from KH2. It also doesn't reveal who Ventus is despite him appearing in the game

This may not be a big deal, but it's still not the IDEAL deal

[Tails 6,692]

  On 1/6/2015 at 2:59 AM, hatok said:

Doesn't matter. I value attention to detail, and in this case the correct thing to do would be to not give these creatures their proper name. They should be written as an unknown, like they are at that point in the story

 

Because th OP is totally taking this situation very seriously

 

Well let's use another example. 358/2 Days was released after KH2, and developed alongside BBS and Coded. Despite this, it doesn't explain plot points from KH2. It also doesn't reveal who Ventus is despite him appearing in the game

This may not be a big deal, but it's still not the IDEAL deal

Well you seem to be taking this too seriously since your title is all in caps. And last I checked, this isn't the random section.

[hatok 6,413]

  On 1/6/2015 at 3:04 AM, Tails said:

Well you seem to be taking this too seriously since your title is all in caps. And last I checked, this isn't the random section.

is this 1995? When is allcaps denote being serious

[Tails 6,692]

  On 1/6/2015 at 3:11 AM, hatok said:

is this 1995? When is allcaps denote being serious

Well, since the internet existed. It has been commenly known that talking in all caps signal yelling or taking something too seriously. Just saying.

[Kaweebo 3,617]

To be honest, though that whole section was kind of lame, anyway. The only part that was actually really cool was to see Cinderella's castle at the end. Sure, it was nice to wander around the RoD, but that got old after five minutes.

[hatok 6,413]

  On 1/6/2015 at 3:36 AM, Kaweebo said:

To be honest, though that whole section was kind of lame, anyway. The only part that was actually really cool was to see Cinderella's castle at the end. Sure, it was nice to wander around the RoD, but that got old after five minutes.

I loved the section. One of very few actually atmospheric locations in KH

[Daxam XXI 31]

So you think that'll ruin plot detals from the future?

 

 

 

There have ALWAYS been Heartless. They were just of the "Pureblood" kind meaning Shadows, Neoshadows, Darkballs, Darksides, Invisables, etc.

 

It's only the "Emblem" Heartless that were created by Xehanort.

 

Also on your thing about Xion appearing as Ventus in 358 well maybe to a newcomer it would appear confusing but once they saw the same person WHO HAPPENS TO BE ON THE COVER ART OF BIRTH BY SLEEP I think they'll be able to put 2 and 2 together.

 

Playing order: KH1FM - COM - KH2 - 358 - BBS - Recoded - DDD

 

You are taking this WAY too seriously.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Daxam XXI

[Jim 2,990]

  On 1/6/2015 at 2:59 AM, hatok said:

Well let's use another example. 358/2 Days was released after KH2, and developed alongside BBS and Coded. Despite this, it doesn't explain plot points from KH2. It also doesn't reveal who Ventus is despite him appearing in the game

This may not be a big deal, but it's still not the IDEAL deal

To be fair, calling them heartless isn't "explaining a plot point." It's simply calling them what they are. And the reason 358/2 days didn't reveal Ventus' identity was because his game wasn't even out yet, and the reveal of his connection to the story was designed to be a sort of plot twist. They wanted to keep his identity a mystery. There's no mystery as to what the heartless are. Every KH player has known what the heartless are since Leon so enthusiastically told us in KH1.

 

On top of that, this journal entry didn't exist in English until 2.5 came out, so it would be even more likely that the player knows what a heartless is. I know this doesn't excuse it, but I've noticed some minor inconsistencies with Final Mix only content that's purely because of lazy localization. It's possible that this is just one of those instances and it was correct in the original Japanese BBSFM.

[Daxam XXI 31]

^

I think it called them Heartless there too.

[hatok 6,413]

  On 1/6/2015 at 11:06 AM, Jim said:

To be fair, calling them heartless isn't "explaining a plot point." It's simply calling them what they are. And the reason 358/2 days didn't reveal Ventus' identity was because his game wasn't even out yet, and the reveal of his connection to the story was designed to be a sort of plot twist. They wanted to keep his identity a mystery. There's no mystery as to what the heartless are. Every KH player has known what the heartless are since Leon so enthusiastically told us in KH1.

 

On top of that, this journal entry didn't exist in English until 2.5 came out, so it would be even more likely that the player knows what a heartless is. I know this doesn't excuse it, but I've noticed some minor inconsistencies with Final Mix only content that's purely because of lazy localization. It's possible that this is just one of those instances and it was correct in the original Japanese BBSFM.

Well as I said before, I appreciate attention to detail, but I also think it's kind of silly to just assume that everybody ever is going to play KH a certain way. I think it was Stan Lee who said "Every comic is somebodies first" and nthe same should be applied to games. What makes you so sure that someone won't think "I should start with Birth by Sleep, since it's the frst one chronologically... wait, what's a 'Heartless'?"

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

  On 1/6/2015 at 2:59 AM, hatok said:

Doesn't matter. I value attention to detail, and in this case the correct thing to do would be to not give these creatures their proper name. They should be written as an unknown, like they are at that point in the story Because th OP is totally taking this situation very seriously Well let's use another example. 358/2 Days was released after KH2, and developed alongside BBS and Coded. Despite this, it doesn't explain plot points from KH2. It also doesn't reveal who Ventus is despite him appearing in the gameThis may not be a big deal, but it's still not the IDEAL deal

Sigh, whatever. I can understand an appreciation for detail, but this just feels VERY insignificant to me. But everybody has their pet peeves I guess. Mine is the slip-up with Ven's Station of Awakening in the game's prologue. THAT I can understand being more of a screw up with established continuity, because it's part of the in-game canon.As for journals, they've always had one small mistake here or there, like Jiminy writing that Pete helped out Scar's Phantom before Scar even died. But if we really fretted over details all the time, then we would question how Jiminy just seems to know exactly what's going on in one scene when none of the main characters are anywhere near where that scene is taking place (maybe he's a psychic or is the fastest cricket alive). There are a few hiccups when it comes to these things, but none of them are game-breakingly bad. I guess it just comes down to personal preference.