Why doesn't Nomura have the guts to take risks in the KH series & why we're afraid to criticize the series?

[Dio Brando 5,810]

This is an interesting point that our friend Villi1997 raised when he mentioned how he fell of the Kingdom Hearts series

http://kh13.com/forum/topic/81223-im-not-into-kingdom-hearts-anymore-to-be-honest/

 

The fact that the series in terms of story telling almost never attempts to take any sort of risks and that couldn't be any more apparent than the fact that any character that got killed off in the series so far has been brought back to life or strongly hinted at their revival.To sum it up it's like Dragon Ball Z where death means absolutely nothing since you know all those characters who got killed will be revived as soon as the next chapter if not in the same chapter(Krillin being a shining example of this)

 

While I haven't fallen from the series I still have a couple of problems with it that led other stories(both in games and animes) to surpass it in my eye

 

I honestly can't blame people if they thought of Sora as a Mary su happy go lucky character as Nomura spent most of his time focusing on stuffing more nonsense into the plot like the goddamn Tome of Prophecy and spend time on other characters instead of spending any sort of time to develop the main characters itself

 

Aside from DDD,everything so far has been going his way and he never went through trials and tribulations that one can relate to.It seems that Nomura want Sora to be percieved as the perfect character that has no flaws and can make friends on a whim.Which is one of the most unrelatable types of protagonists unfortunately

 

 

Sora has the potential to get character development and be a relatable character it's just this plot condemns his potential and make him seems like a plot device that pushes Xehanort's plan back rather than a hero you root for

 

Since the major theme of Kingdom Hearts seems to be friendship,why not make Sora feels the weight of such a thing by making him feel what it's like to lose a friend either because you were not powerful enough to save himher or because of a mistake you've done.If Sora is always to get aaaaaall of his friends back then why should I care about them or feel emotionally attached to them?

 

And before anyone tells me how this is disney and how family friendly they are.Let me remind you that Disney themselves did kill some of their characters in their movies.Mufasa died in the Lion King which motivated Simba to become a stronger king and defeat Scar.Kerchak died in Tarzan and a couple of other examples that proves even in Disney killing off a character can help the plot

 

I get it.I get that Sora is supposed to be the typical Shonen hero that you'd find in most shonen animes but even that doesn't mean he can't feel any sort of anger and sadness and have things always going as he wants to.

 

If we would pick a shonen character that almost behaves exactly like Sora but was done right,I'd pick Gon from Hunter X Hunter

 

 

He's as happy go lucky and simple-minded as you can get from a shonen hero yet that didn't prevent him from going through character development

 

During his journey to become a hunter and find his father he went through trials and tribulations.He felt anger and sadness,he got friends and also lost others and he made mistakes that he learned from as the series progressed.He's not a perfect character and yet you can relate to someone like Gon more than characters like Sora because he got a decent amount of character development that led the viewer to relate to him

 

I know the KH series isn't done yet and that's why I hope to God in KH3 that Nomura would give Sora a lot more focus and character development.No more emphasis on the supporting cast or overglorifying their role while they did nothing substantial compared to the main character yet Nomura is trying to make them more important than what they actually are(looking at you BBS trio,Eraqus and Yen Sid)

 

Another issue is character motivation.So far all characters has the same goal and motivation of "Save the world",which isn't a bad thing mind you but goals like this have been done to death and in a much better fashion in some other stories than this.Characters should have their own unique motivation for doing what they're doing.A good example of this is Final Fantasy 6.Despite the fact that you're controlling over 14 different characters,almost everyone(with the exception of Mog,Umaro and Gogo) have their own unique personalities and different goals and reasons to fight the tyranny of the Gestahl empire and  Kefka.There was the Pawn of the Empire (Terra),the Samurai who seeks revenge(Cyan),the bounty hunter Ninja(Shadow),the man who sought to improve himself to be of a great help for his brother(Sabin),the abandoned boy who wants to protect his friends (Gau),the general who got betrayed and found her love(Celes),the gampler who turned against the empire for his own personal reasons(Setzer)......etc each of them had their own unique personalities and reasons for why they united together to stop Kefka and I absolutely loved that.You gotta show multiple perspectives motivations rather than having your characters having the same one-dimensional predictable personas.

 

 

Another huge issue is Organization XIII,aside from the fact that they really overstayed their welcome in the plot,some of them either are generic supporting villains or just there for the ride,especially every member in the rank after Axel.Demyx,Luxord,Marluxia and Larxene had any reason to exist in this plot heck we haven't even seen their human selves yet.They felt like they were just there so Nomura can fullfill his wish of having the Number 13 being a prominent number in the series

 

I could go on and on and on but the point is:Believe me I love this series and I myself is a fan of stories that makes me think and try to solves the mysteries,but there is a limit to where you can stretch the convoluted nature of a story and the KH series had definitely crossed that ever since Birth by Sleep and the issue got worse with KH x (chi) and 2.5 secret cutscenes.It's no longer about making the player think and be invested in the plot more so than about stuffing as much bullshit into the mix just so Nomura can see millions of question marks flying in the sky that won't be solved unless you go extremely out of your way to figure it out which is an immersion breaker.Seeking outside knowledge should be something that enrich the lore not a goddamn homework that you have to do in order to understand WTF is going on and the insane retcons that occurs doesn't make the job any easier.

 

And finally,and I know I went for faaaaar too long,is the issue with us fans.Most of us are afraid to point out what's wrong with what they see in the series either because they haven't played other RPGs or haven't watched or read more stories or because they're afraid it would ruin the image of something the love and cherish.Look I can understand that and I won't deny that I haven't suffered from the same issue but we have to open our minds and learn more about how the structure of a good well-written plot is by seeking other forms of story telling.It doesn't have to be games that you spend too much money on.How about reading manga,comics novels....etc.Watching animes,movies,TV shows....etc.try to diverse your knowledge about storytelling rather than limiting it to just Kingdom Hearts and you can discover things that the KH series can learn something or two from.

 

I would've listed examples here but I've been talking too much.And with little hope I hope what I've said would be percieved with civil thinking without flame wars..........pfffft yeah right.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Smash Mega Koopa

[Ruby Rose 8,591]

That's a lot of reading

 

I'm just gonna give you a Like for taking the time to write it all

[Aru Akise 2,540]

Following Mr. Jelly. Lots of reading to which I'll say this single word that I think explains it all: Disney.

[Kingdom Of Me 171]

Kingdom Hearts III, will be one of the greatest games of this generation.... so in it all, it doesn't really matter in the end...

[Keyblader_95 1,410]

No one will raise flame wars, don't worry. I'll start by saying that Kingdom Hearts is not perfect objectively, even though it is for me personally. With this said, this is my opinion:
My opinion is that you're missing the whole point of the series, and as you suggested us to try to widen our knowledge about storytelling, I suggest you to base your criticism on what Kingdom Hearts aims to convey, not on how it should be done comparing the whole thing with other games/anime, etc.

[TheKingdomkid 1,194]

I read all that and it was really thought out well and yes some of the things you said are true but Sora did have a driving force in KH and KH2 and that was mostly to find his friends of course he kinda got thrown into having to save the world and all but he didn't really seem to mind that at all since in the first KH booklet it says he has a strong sense of justice.  I do wish they would develop his character a little more and I think they are starting to do that since in DDD he didn't become a Keyblade Master, sure he was happy that Riku became one but I'm sure somewhere deep down he's sad that he didn't become one he just didn't want to show it and sure him going back to the Realm of Sleep to thank the Dream Eaters was probably one thing he probably went back their for another reason we don't know yet.  Now that being said they did do some character development in the past for Sora already although it wasn't as much as some of the other characters have had.  Sora has gone through trials and tribulations as well, he had to fight his best friend he had his memory erased and he had the mark of mastery exam as well.  I don't think Sora needs to loss a friend to really show some character or sadness or anger we have seen him do this before in the past and he has made mistakes he is in no way the perfect protagonist he has and probably will keep making mistakes and he will learn from them.  All in all I do like the story of the game I have watched a lot of anime and played a lot of RPGs but this game is still amazing in it's own right and hopefully KH3 brings some more character development for Sora 

[Dio Brando 5,810]

No one will raise flame wars, don't worry. I'll start by saying that Kingdom Hearts is not perfect objectively, even though it is for me personally. With this said, this is my opinion:

My opinion is that you're missing the whole point of the series, and as you suggested us to try to widen our knowledge about storytelling, I suggest you to base your criticism on what Kingdom Hearts aims to convey, not on how it should be done comparing the whole thing with other games/anime, etc.

Dude I spent time with Kingdom Hearts more than any other game in my life that isn't named Pokemon or Smash Bros

 

I know the point of the KH series totally I'm just discussing the plot between the beginning and the point 

 

I based my criticism on both sides not just one and even then it still have quite the number of problems  even if I looked at it solely as a Kingdom Hearts fan I can point out the flaws and suggest some possible solutions that Nomura could've taken

[Keyblader_95 1,410]

Dude I spent time with Kingdom Hearts more than any other game in my life that isn't named Pokemon or Smash Bros

 

I know the point of the KH series totally I'm just discussing the plot between the beginning and the point 

 

I based my criticism on both sides not just one and even then it still have quite the number of problems  even if I looked at it solely as a Kingdom Hearts fan I can point out the flaws and suggest some possible solutions that Nomura could've taken

Kingdom Hearts has a few flaws and that's for sure, mate, I think no one will ever deny it. After all nothing is flawless objectively, perfection is our prospective of something so able to affect us emotionally that flaws mean literally nothing (which is what happens to me when it comes to Kingdom Hearts). I just think that what you listed as flaws are not really the flaws, considering what Nomura wants to give us with this series

[Yuya Sakaki 5,212]

Well not every game is perfect, but you have some good points about the flaws of the series. Kingdom Hearts III is meant to tie all loose ends. So I just hope Nomura leaves nothing out of it.

 

Peace!

Edited November 3, 2014 by Yusei Fudo

[Dio Brando 5,810]

Kingdom Hearts has a few flaws and that's for sure, mate, I think no one will ever deny it. After all nothing is flawless objectively, perfection is our prospective of something so able to affect us emotionally that flaws mean literally nothing (which is what happens to me when it comes to Kingdom Hearts). I just think that what you listed as flaws are not really the flaws, considering what Nomura wants to give us with this series

As you've said it depends on your perspective whether what I've listed is actually a flaw or not.

 

Look I still love and adore the series and the reason I criticize some stuff in it is because I want it to grow and be bigger and better

 

KH used to be my favorite franchise for a long time before I discovered other stuff that,in my personal opinion,have somethings that Kingdom Hearts can learn from heck Square Enix's own work FF6 which Nomura was a part of when he designed Setzer can be a good inspiration for what needs to be fixed in the KH series

Well not every game is perfect, but you have some good points about the flaws of the series. Kingdom Hearts III is meant to tie all loose ends. So I just hope Nomura leaves out of it.

 

Peace!

I hope he ties those loose ends and not complicate it even more than it already is

[Yuya Sakaki 5,212]

I hope he ties those loose ends and not complicate it even more than it already is

 

DDD retconned all, so let's hope KHIII doesn't do the same.

 

Peace!

[Keyblader_95 1,410]

As you've said it depends on your perspective whether what I've listed is actually a flaw or not.

 

Look I still love and adore the series and the reason I criticize some stuff in it is because I want it to grow and be bigger and better

 

KH used to be my favorite franchise for a long time before I discovered other stuff that,in my personal opinion,have somethings that Kingdom Hearts can learn from heck Square Enix's own work FF6 which Nomura was a part of when he designed Setzer can be a good inspiration for what needs to be fixed in the KH series

I hope he ties those loose ends and not complicate it even more than it already is

In fact it's good you have your own ideas and that you want to grow, no doubts at all. But we have to deal with the fact that our criticisms do not equal to reality when it comes to opinions. I think Kingdom Hearts is perfect, but that doesn't mean it really is. You think Kingdom Hearts has something that needs to be fixed, but that doesn't mean there's actually something wrong. You see, Nomura had very clear goals he wanted to achieve with every single installment, and hell he succeeded, so, objectively, what he did can't be defined as flaws, but subjectively everyone is free not to like certain elements or strategy or whatever

[RikuFangirl2008 1,368]

It's not like I'm afraid of criticizing. It's just when it comes to criticizing one's work, I really hate it. Yes, I hate (I repeat) HATE criticizing one's work. 

 

And I just like, the range of story telling, and how the games stories are connecting, like a puzzle. It will have it's puzzling moments and all, but it's all good to me. 

[Dracozombie 4,554]

My main beef with the series is the way is not so much the plot itself or the unwillingness to take risks (no one has yet to convince my why someone needs to die without it feeling gratuitous), but by the way the story's been unfolding. I'm sure the plot makes perfect sense when you take a step back to look at it all from a wide (and I do mean wide) lens, and view it chronologically. But with the way the plot's been unfolding game-to-game, it's like you can't be complacent for too long because each game introduces a new element that changes our view on a previously established element, feeling like a retcon. Again, it's not so bad looking at the big picture, but you can definitely tell Nomura's writing by the seat of his pants and that's a dangerous way to go about storytelling.

[Demyx. 10,064]

It's fun to play. That's all I care.

[Dio Brando 5,810]

My main beef with the series is the way is not so much the plot itself or the unwillingness to take risks (no one has yet to convince my why someone needs to die without it feeling gratuitous), but by the way the story's been unfolding. I'm sure the plot makes perfect sense when you take a step back to look at it all from a wide (and I do mean wide) lens, and view it chronologically. But with the way the plot's been unfolding game-to-game, it's like you can't be complacent for too long because each game introduces a new element that changes our view on a previously established element, feeling like a retcon. Again, it's not so bad looking at the big picture, but you can definitely tell Nomura's writing by the seat of his pants and that's a dangerous way to go about storytelling.

The whole death thing is just an example I never meant to make it sound as something absolute or factual,I just meant since one of the biggest themes is friendship do something in the plot that emphasize how important it is.

 

I can't take some of the friendships here seriously if characters keeps on coming back to life and the fact that some friendships like Ventus and Lea were just formed in 5 minutes and suddenly they're friends

 

Anyway aside from that.I did take a step back numerous amount of times and everything is fine until you reach Birth by Sleep where things you've just figured out begins to flip upside down and it continues to do so as you progress

 

my complaint isn't with the idea or the plot itself,it's with how Nomura chose to tell it especially when you reach the point in the series where time travel is involved

 

That is a very hard plot device to use cuz if it's done wrong it will condemn the entire timeline of the narrative,it never worked for things like the Final Fantasy XIII trilogy or Sonic 06 so why depend on it?

Edited November 3, 2014 by Smash Mega Koopa

[Dio Brando 5,810]

Also,just to clarify to people here,I don't personally think that Sora is a mary su character myself but it's really hard to convince people otherwise and Nomura's style of writing doesn't help either

[Forever 3,550]

Here's the thing: Nomura TRIES to do things, but Disney always reels him back in. They censor the most pettiest of elements, so him not being as gritty as he would like, sort of makes sense.

[Dio Brando 5,810]

Here's the thing: Nomura TRIES to do things, but Disney always reels him back in. They censor the most pettiest of elements, so him not being as gritty as he would like, sort of makes sense.

Dude killing a character DOESN'T MEAN GRITTY ALL THE TIME UHHH

 

Mufasa died in Lion King for f***'s sake so I don't think it's more of Disney censoring the dude and more him not having enough guts to have a character stay dead

 

Dragon Ball Z also has the same exact issue as this

 

The blame can't be always directed at Disney,both have to share the blame

 

How is it gritty to have world building,character development and motivation?THOSE ARE NATURAL THINGS TO KEEP IN MIND WHILE WRITING

Edited November 3, 2014 by Smash Mega Koopa

[Forever 3,550]

Dude killing a character DOESN'T MEAN GRITTY ALL THE TIME UHHH

 

Mufasa died in Lion King for f***'s sake so I don't think it's more of Disney censoring the dude and more him not having enough guts to have a character stay dead

 

Dragon Ball Z also has the same exact issue as this

 

The blame can't be always directed at Disney,both have to share the blame

 

How is it gritty to have world building,character development and motivation?THOSE ARE NATURAL THINGS TO KEEP IN MIND WHILE WRITING

 

First of all, there is no need for such a condescending response. This is a discussion board, not a politician's rally. Second of all, there IS character development. But (A) It isn't apparent in every single character. (B) It isn't in the characters you want it to be in © You have to know how to look for it. Case in point: Riku. He probably is the best example of character development done right in this series. He started off as a arrogant young boy who desired to be better than his friend in the first game, a conflicted young man in COM, a regretful young adult in KH2, and now in DDD we see him coming to Sora's rescue as a more mature,  level-headed young man who has finally learned to get over his past. Another character?  Terra. Of course they only had the length of one game to push out his character, but even in that time frame they were not only able to make him believable, but somewhat sympathetic. First you see him as a young man determined to win the Exam, then  after failing he sets off to prove himself, but due to his serious, yet naive nature he finds himself becoming a pawn in everyone else's plans despite everything he tries to do to be a "good student". Eraqus, a character who has an even SHORTER appearance time, still leaves an impact on me because once again, he has a very believable and relate able circumstance. A man so obsessed with what is traditionally acceptable, that his own ethics end up being the end of him.

 

Sora has been in every single game, and is still the same happy go lucky boy when he started, but  Xehanort just quite literally dropped out of the sky, and yet shows more diversity by being a cold, manipulative, unreasonable old man; yet still very collected and charismatic. So much so, that he's almost a gentleman. Which is a hard balance to achieve with villains, without making them laughable. 

 

I can see where you are coming from in wanting MORE character development, but there is some there.  And as of now, we cannot go back into old games and insert what we THINK is missing. Either one can hold out, and hope that in further installments they continue to grow our favorite characters for the better, or you can fall out of love. I choose to remain IN love because adore this series despite it's flaws....and of course, most of my favorite characters are evil and interesting, so there's that too.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Pandy Monium

[Firaga 5,947]

Kingdom Hearts isn't supposed to be anything that takes risks in the first place, to be honest. It's just a pet project with Disney and Square Enix, bringing together their best elements and making a franchise out of it. If they really wanted to do something super out-of-left-field with it, they probably would have long ago. Obviously, there's some depth in there, a message to be delivered, but even so, it's not something that's supposed to make us re-evaluate our lives or anything. You can certainly learn a few things, but nothing too major.

 

Still, I'm not afraid to criticize things I don't like, and there are a few big things that I don't like, nor am I afraid to think that the series can do much better if certain things were to happen or if certain things were redone or not done in the first place. Just things here and there that I think would help it improve. That's just how much I care for the series as a whole. Do I think it'd be better if it takes risks? No, I don't. It doesn't need to. It just needs to be good. With whatever it brings to the table.

 

On the topic of Sora being a Gary Stu (that's actually the male version of a Mary Sue): I'm not going to lie, Sora isn't exactly my favorite character in the series, even though he's the main guy. I don't hate him, though. In fact, I'd love to see him improve character wise so that I can enjoy him more. He is the main character after all, and he's a character whose story I've been following for more than a decade now. Does he need to be some edgy badass? Well, no, not at all. He can still be goofy and simple minded and friendly, but just with a little more depth to him. A sense of maturity or understanding that he should have considering the events that have occurred over the time spent in the story.

 

Also, the lore isn't that hard to understand, sheesh.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Firaga Sensei

[Dio Brando 5,810]

Kingdom Hearts isn't supposed to be anything that takes risks in the first place, to be honest. It's just a pet project with Disney and Square Enix, bringing together their best elements and making a franchise out of it. If they really wanted to do something super out-of-left-field with it, they probably would have long ago. Obviously, there's some depth in there, a message to be delivered, but even so, it's not something that's supposed to make us re-evaluate our lives or anything. You can certainly learn a few things, but nothing too major.

 

Still, I'm not afraid to criticize things I don't like, and there are a few big things that I don't like, nor am I afraid to think that the series can do much better if certain things were to happen or if certain things were redone or not done in the first place. Just things here and there that I think would help it improve. That's just how much I care for the series as a whole. Do I think it'd be better if it takes risks? No, I don't. It doesn't need to. It just needs to be good. With whatever it brings to the table.

 

On the topic of Sora being a Gary Stu (that's actually the male version of a Mary Sue): I'm not going to lie, Sora isn't exactly my favorite character in the series, even though he's the main guy. I don't hate him, though. In fact, I'd love to see him improve character wise so that I can enjoy him more. He is the main character after all, and he's a character whose story I've been following for more than a decade now. Does he need to be some edgy badass? Well, no, not at all. He can still be goofy and simple minded and friendly, but just with a little more depth to him. A sense of maturity or understanding that he should have considering the events that have occurred over the time spent in the story.

 

Also, the lore isn't that hard to understand, sheesh.

For the love of f*** I NEVER SAID HE SHOULD BECOME GODDAMN SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG AND BE EDGY

 

WHY DOES EVERYBODY ASSUME THAT WHENEVER I BRING IT UP

[Firaga 5,947]

For the love of f*** I NEVER SAID HE SHOULD BECOME GODDAMN SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG AND BE EDGY

 

WHY DOES EVERYBODY ASSUME THAT WHENEVER I BRING IT UP

 

I never said you did. That's just a one off preference of mine.

[Dio Brando 5,810]

I never said you did. That's just a one off preference of mine.

All I meant is:I want to see Sora being put in a variety of situations to see how he's gonna deal with it

 

And I'm sure Xehanort will pull out all the stops to make sure another Keyblade War would take place so I wanna see him trying to convert Sora into the 13th vessel again

 

 

Like it or not Sora now has the X sigil marked on him which means he might be holding a small piece of Xehanort even if  a small

 

I'd like to see Sora dealing with that and how it would affect his character development.....I mean like having him trying to shrug Xehanort's inevitable upcoming influence on his heart and resisting the darkness that might make him the 13th vessel

[Firaga 5,947]

Like it or not Sora now has the X sigil marked on him which means he might be holding a small piece of Xehanort even if  a small

 

I'd like to see Sora dealing with that and how it would affect his character development.....I mean like having him trying to shrug Xehanort's inevitable upcoming influence on his heart and resisting the darkness that might make him the 13th vessel

 

Interesting idea, but he doesn't have the Sigil anymore. And I doubt Xehanort would try to give him another one.