Roxas' Heart

[LeYenrz 276]

Although there is little evidence to back up either side of the argument, what do you think?

 

Do you think that during the course of Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days, Roxas grew his own heart as he matured and lived his life with Xion and Axel? Or do you think that he only had Ven's heart inside of him and that was the thing that enabled him to feel various emotions?

 

Well, I think that it's the first option. Because if it was just Ven's heart inside of him, Roxas would more or less be an exact copy of Ventus. Not to mention that the first two weeks of Roxas' life in the organization consisted of him being 'a zombie' and seemed to have no feelings at all. But the moment he finished his first mission in Twilight Town, he expressed feelings and showed a spark of an attitude. But it could be that his zombie phase was just a side effect of Xemnas wiping out his memory.

[Shard the Gentleman 2,891]

Although there is little evidence to back up either side of the argument, what do you think?

 

Do you think that during the course of Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days, Roxas grew his own heart as he matured and lived his life with Xion and Axel? Or do you think that he only had Ven's heart inside of him and that was the thing that enabled him to feel various emotions?

 

Well, I think that it's the first option. Because if it was just Ven's heart inside of him, Roxas would more or less be an exact copy of Ventus. Not to mention that the first two weeks of Roxas' life in the organization consisted of him being 'a zombie' and seemed to have no feelings at all. But the moment he finished his first mission in Twilight Town, he expressed feelings and showed a spark of an attitude. But it could be that his zombie phase was just a side effect of Xemnas wiping out his memory.

I feel like it was a little of both. I think Ven influenced some of his emotions and personality, but many of it was his own.

[Philip Ellwell 5,487]

Although there is little evidence to back up either side of the argument, what do you think?

 

Do you think that during the course of Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days, Roxas grew his own heart as he matured and lived his life with Xion and Axel? Or do you think that he only had Ven's heart inside of him and that was the thing that enabled him to feel various emotions?

 

Well, I think that it's the first option. Because if it was just Ven's heart inside of him, Roxas would more or less be an exact copy of Ventus. Not to mention that the first two weeks of Roxas' life in the organization consisted of him being 'a zombie' and seemed to have no feelings at all. But the moment he finished his first mission in Twilight Town, he expressed feelings and showed a spark of an attitude. But it could be that his zombie phase was just a side effect of Xemnas wiping out his memory.

Ven influenced Sora, Sora influenced Roxas. 

My non~canon belief is Roxas did indeed grow a heart, and Xion's death shattered it, hence his tears. 

The meeting 

SPOILERS!!!!!!!!

 

Between Roxas and sora in DDD was his way of showing sora he'd accepted his lot.

 

His smile in the KH II manga as he fades away kills me everytime.

[Demyx. 10,064]

DDD pretty much says he grew his own.

[outbackjim21 83]

Although there is little evidence to back up either side of the argument, what do you think? Do you think that during the course of Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days, Roxas grew his own heart as he matured and lived his life with Xion and Axel? Or do you think that he only had Ven's heart inside of him and that was the thing that enabled him to feel various emotions? Well, I think that it's the first option. Because if it was just Ven's heart inside of him, Roxas would more or less be an exact copy of Ventus. Not to mention that the first two weeks of Roxas' life in the organization consisted of him being 'a zombie' and seemed to have no feelings at all. But the moment he finished his first mission in Twilight Town, he expressed feelings and showed a spark of an attitude. But it could be that his zombie phase was just a side effect of Xemnas wiping out his memory.

As it stands, i think roxas isn't his own person yet, he still has ventus' heart, technically, and from what xemnas has said, only when the heart is gone can the body grow a new one. And also ven's memories are sealed, its the same concept behind an amnesiac getting a new personality because they don't remember their original, and with sora keeping his own memories due to not remaining a heartless for long, this resulted in both roxas being a zombie the first two weeks and his fragmented memories involving sora. Ad xemnas was never shown to wipe roxas' memory, he just found him the day he was born and gave him a name, nothing more nothing less

[Ruby Rose 8,591]

I thought Xemnas said that Nobodies grow hearts of their own as time goes on, but I could be wrong

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

As it stands, i think roxas isn't his own person yet, he still has ventus' heart, technically, and from what xemnas has said, only when the heart is gone can the body grow a new one. And also ven's memories are sealed, its the same concept behind an amnesiac getting a new personality because they don't remember their original, and with sora keeping his own memories due to not remaining a heartless for long, this resulted in both roxas being a zombie the first two weeks and his fragmented memories involving sora. Ad xemnas was never shown to wipe roxas' memory, he just found him the day he was born and gave him a name, nothing more nothing less

Roxas did grow his own heart though not only that but it did something it wasn't supossed to it claimed its own identity. Xemnas and Anselm revealed that the heart will always try to replace itself in the event of a seperation from the body. Once a heart bud forms it must be nurtured by light. It will continue to grow as it interacts with other people aka other hearts. Roxas was born without memories having no access to Sora's memories or the memories of Ven's sleeping heart is the reason he claimed a new identity. Remember memories create an identity when rubbed together they spark emotion, emotion is what stimulates the hearts growth. Since Sora's body would have formed a heart bud with no external memories to attach an identity to it would have been stimulated by the memories Roxas created during the length of his existence. Bottom line any heart that grew within Roxas during his existence would have been his own. Edited January 6, 2014 by devereauxr

[outbackjim21 83]

Roxas did grow his own heart though not only that but it did something it wasn't supossed to it claimed its own identity. Xemnas and Anselm revealed that the heart will always try to replace itself in the event of a seperation from the body. Once a heart bud forms it must be nurtured by light. It will continue to grow as it interacts with other people aka other hearts. Roxas was born without memories having no access to Sora's memories or the memories of Ven's sleeping heart is the reason he claimed a new identity. Remember memories create an identity when rubbed together they spark emotion, emotion is what stimulates the hearts growth. Since Sora's body would have formed a heart bud with no external memories to attach an identity to it would have been stimulated by the memories Roxas created during the length of his existence. Bottom line any heart that grew within Roxas during his existence would have been his own.

but like I said before, Roxas was never truly a nobody, he always had Ventus' heart within him, there was never a need for him to grow a new one. Roxas has his own identity that much is sure, but it's based off the foundation of Ven's heart, once Ven regains it in KH3, THEN Roxas will be able to grow a new heart, but until then, Roxas is technically not his own person unless sora has become a heart factory and gave Roxas a heart after their complete merge.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

but like I said before, Roxas was never truly a nobody, he always had Ventus' heart within him, there was never a need for him to grow a new one. Roxas has his own identity that much is sure, but it's based off the foundation of Ven's heart, once Ven regains it in KH3, THEN Roxas will be able to grow a new heart, but until then, Roxas is technically not his own person unless sora has become a heart factory and gave Roxas a heart after their complete merge.

 

But that is moot since the heart he had was dormant /asleep. On top of not actually belonging to him . DDD pretty much confirmed he grew his own and the ending with Ansem the Wise's data shows us how they will bring him back bc of it ..Rewatch the scene and it explains it pretty well. Also, you are right Xemnas never wiped away Roxas' memory. He was born without Sora's memories or Ven's ( since it was dormant) and thus was a 'zombie".

Edited January 7, 2014 by Flaming Lea

[outbackjim21 83]

But that is moot since the heart he had was dormant /asleep. On top of not actually belonging to him . DDD pretty much confirmed he grew his own and the ending with Ansem the Wise's data shows us how they will bring him back bc of it ..Rewatch the scene and it explains it pretty well. Also, you are right Xemnas never wiped away Roxas' memory. He was born without Sora's memories or Ven's ( since it was dormant) and thus was a 'zombie".

DDD doesn't confirm it, it notes the possibility, sora says that Roxas "deserves" to be his own person, deservingAnd being are two different words. It's possible that he did, but it would go against what Xemnas said about the conditions needed to grow a heart.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

DDD doesn't confirm it, it notes the possibility, sora says that Roxas "deserves" to be his own person, deservingAnd being are two different words. It's possible that he did, but it would go against what Xemnas said about the conditions needed to grow a heart.

 

"pretty much confirmed it " is my way of saying my strong belief that it did since it's strongly implied  . Secondly it does NOT go against what Xemnas said bc Ven's heart was broken /dormant/asleep and did NOT belong to his body since his own body's was gone .Tell me where it goes against it .

 

Also:

 

 

— Before the ending, Riku receives research data from Ansem the Wise. In the next title, will that be the key to bringing back the people who are sleeping inside Sora?

Nomura: You could say it’s the key. That data contains the details explaining the way to connect lost hearts.

 

Lets see who all is sleeping inside Sora - could it be the same people shown and  featured in the scene in the end with Ansem the Wise? Who was there- oh yeah Xion Roxas and Ven....I think there is way more pointing to Roxas growing a heart and how they will bring him back then you want to admit 

Edited January 7, 2014 by Flaming Lea

[Demyx. 10,064]

DDD doesn't confirm it, it notes the possibility, sora says that Roxas "deserves" to be his own person, deservingAnd being are two different words. It's possible that he did, but it would go against what Xemnas said about the conditions needed to grow a heart.

Have you read the interviews?

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

but like I said before, Roxas was never truly a nobody, he always had Ventus' heart within him, there was never a need for him to grow a new one. Roxas has his own identity that much is sure, but it's based off the foundation of Ven's heart, once Ven regains it in KH3, THEN Roxas will be able to grow a new heart, but until then, Roxas is technically not his own person unless sora has become a heart factory and gave Roxas a heart after their complete merge.

No only Roxas's appearance was affected by Ven's heart as the heart shaped the vessel. Remember Roxas was a special nobody due to the fact that he and Sora existed simultaneously. Sora technically should never retained his sense of self but his connection to his friends allowed him to exist alongside Roxas as two individual identities. Though Ventus's heart remained within Sora's body it is not the same principle. It merely affected the form Roxas took. Ventus severely damaged his own heart in destroying Vanitas it could not survive without a vessel to contain it much less impact Roxas's identity. It would also not count as the bodies heart as it is not native to that particular body.Because Roxas is Sora's nobody his body would attempt to replace the heart it lost aka Sora's heart. As I've said because the new heart did not have any of Sora's memories or access to Ven's it would have been claimed under the only memories available aka Roxas's. What you don't understand is that memories are what form an identity within a heart. To put it simply "They are made up of the people we meet and how we feel about them". Part of the problem the Organization had with Roxas, and Xion was that they developed a sense of self that defied the schemes of the Organization. Xemnas wanted all the organization members to cast aside their previous memories in attempt to reduce their heart growth and eliminate their sense of self. Roxas, Axel, and Xion did not do this and were able to grow their own hearts because of it. Further proof of this is that fact that Roxas was able to summon Ventus's Keyblade. In order for hearts to grow they require contact with other hearts. The connection s forged between heart nurtures it. However only Roxas interacted with other hearts Ventus's heart which lay dormant within did not have any direct interaction with other hearts. However once Roxas's own heart began to grow it would be able to nurture Ventus's heart as well. The emotions that Roxas was forced to feel during his existence obviously nurtured Ven's heart enough to where it was able to finally influence Roxas as well as show a more visible presense within him and Sora. Edited January 7, 2014 by devereauxr

[outbackjim21 83]

"pretty much confirmed it " is my way of saying my strong belief that it did since it's strongly implied  . Secondly it does NOT go against what Xemnas said bc Ven's heart was broken /dormant/asleep and did NOT belong to his body since his own body's was gone .Tell me where it goes against it . Also:  — Before the ending, Riku receives research data from Ansem the Wise. In the next title, will that be the key to bringing back the people who are sleeping inside Sora?Nomura: You could say it’s the key. That data contains the details explaining the way to connect lost hearts. Lets see who all is sleeping inside Sora - could it be the same people shown and  featured in the scene in the end with Ansem the Wise? Who was there- oh yeah Xion Roxas and Ven....I think there is way more pointing to Roxas growing a heart and how they will bring him back then you want to admit

xion, undoubtably she gained a heart during 358 days, but the concept is established, it doesn't matter that the heart doesn't belong to the body, not a single person be it the characters or nomura himself have stated that this is an exception to the rule of being able to grow a heart or not. And yes Roxas and the others mentioned are sleeping within Sora's heart, but explain this then, what happens when a nobody that has grown a heart disappears and is reformed (I.e Lea) what happens to the original and the newly formed? Does that mean lea has two hearts now, or did the hearts merge together, or maybe it evenKicked out the newly formed or ignored the original. And what about apprentice xehanort, his memories are sealed as well, did he grow a new heart? This is the downside of nomura playing things by ear, plot holes form. But until they are filled I believe that Roxas is not his own person yet, though he has an identity, that identity does not have a heart to call its own, very similar to a nobody, yet because Roxas does indeed have a heart it means he is not a nobody, technically. As it stands, not a single character,awake on the light side, aside from Mickey and yen Sid ,even have a clue as to where ventus is, or even who he is, Every character is pretty much talking out of their ass when they say Roxas is his own person that he has his own heart. Because they have no idea of ventus' existence and the fact that ventus' heart was within Roxas.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

xion, undoubtably she gained a heart during 358 days, but the concept is established, it doesn't matter that the heart doesn't belong to the body, not a single person be it the characters or nomura himself have stated that this is an exception to the rule of being able to grow a heart or not.

 

 

#1- the scene showed all three people that are asleep in Sora in the scene with Ansem the Wise and his info on his data . You say Xion but purposely exclude the others shown in that scene bc you do know they also include Ven and Roxas. They were present bc they were inside Sora like Ansem's data was .

 

#2- Who said it was an exception - Xemnas said if a person loses his heart his body will grow it back . Ven's heart was not his and dormant- contributing none of Ven's memories or sense of self making it nonfunctioning so your logic there is flawed. 

 

And yes Roxas and the others mentioned are sleeping within Sora's heart, but explain this then, what happens when a nobody that has grown a heart disappears and is reformed (I.e Lea) what happens to the original and the newly formed? Does that mean lea has two hearts now, or did the hearts merge together, or maybe it evenKicked out the newly formed or ignored the original. And what about apprentice xehanort, his memories are sealed as well, did he grow a new heart? This is the downside of nomura playing things by ear, plot holes form. But until they are filled I believe that Roxas is not his own person yet, though he has an identity, that identity does not have a heart to call its own, very similar to a nobody, yet because Roxas does indeed have a heart it means he is not a nobody, technically.

 

Two different things are going on here  . The other nobodies who grew new hearts like Lea still had their memories and experiences from before so if they started to grow new hearts with new memories and experiences it would make sense for them to prolly merge with their original . Roxas and Xion did not have any prior memories and experiences to drawl from but instead had their own new memories and experiences they built to grow their own heart with as well as their own identity . AX had  Terra's heart too with his body so he truly wasn't missing his body's original heart . Both examples you are asking about are not the same circumstances AT ALL..Also Nomura himself called Roxas and Xemnas special nobodies with special circumstances. Also in KH peoples 'identities" and sense of self are part of what makes a person's HEART. Why do you think if MX's heart took control of Terra's body he would identify himself as Xehanort? As it stands, not a single character,awake on the light side, aside from Mickey and yen Sid ,even have a clue as to where ventus is, or even who he is, Every character is pretty much talking out of their ass when they say Roxas is his own person that he has his own heart. Because they have no idea of ventus' existence and the fact that ventus' heart was within Roxas.

 

 

If they have no idea Ven's heart was in Roxas  but yet still claimed he had his own identity and heart ( which clearly wasn't Ven's identity and memories and experiences)  you are actually proving he grew his own heart . Just sayin'.. Now you claim that everyone in game is talking out of their ass but you pulled that outta your ass since you are just assuming .In game content is more canon then your assumption everyone is talking out of their asses .

Edited January 7, 2014 by Flaming Lea

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

xion, undoubtably she gained a heart during 358 days, but the concept is established, it doesn't matter that the heart doesn't belong to the body, not a single person be it the characters or nomura himself have stated that this is an exception to the rule of being able to grow a heart or not. And yes Roxas and the others mentioned are sleeping within Sora's heart, but explain this then, what happens when a nobody that has grown a heart disappears and is reformed (I.e Lea) what happens to the original and the newly formed? Does that mean lea has two hearts now, or did the hearts merge together, or maybe it evenKicked out the newly formed or ignored the original. And what about apprentice xehanort, his memories are sealed as well, did he grow a new heart? This is the downside of nomura playing things by ear, plot holes form. But until they are filled I believe that Roxas is not his own person yet, though he has an identity, that identity does not have a heart to call its own, very similar to a nobody, yet because Roxas does indeed have a heart it means he is not a nobody, technically. As it stands, not a single character,awake on the light side, aside from Mickey and yen Sid ,even have a clue as to where ventus is, or even who he is, Every character is pretty much talking out of their ass when they say Roxas is his own person that he has his own heart. Because they have no idea of ventus' existence and the fact that ventus' heart was within Roxas.

To understand any of what I've been saying you need to understand the concept of the heart as defined by Nomura.–What is the definition of a heart in Kingdom Hearts?Nomura: It is the theme of the series. To explain it simply, a person has a body, a soul, and a heart. As an image, the soul is the life source, without it a person would be dead. Since the heart doesn’t have a form, memories play an important part in forming a heart. Also, the heart isn’t limited to people, but to all things. I tried to explain this concept to Disney, and they merely said that it must be an Eastern way of thinking. It may be interesting how overseas players think of it.To have memories is to have a heart, memories rubbed together spark emotion which in turn nurtures the heart. These elements at what form an identity. To say one has an identity and to say one has a heart is one and the same. Sora saw and felt that Roxas was a different identity. It was this that allowed Roxas to manifest within Sora's heart, it was this that allowed him to choice his own form within the data scape. To say that Roxas has no heart is to say that Roxas cannot be saved as there is nothing left of him to save. As for the two hearts I believe as with the ressurection the two halfs return to the whole. Since the two hearts are made of the same identity the would most likely inter grate. However if the new heart has formed its own identity it will seek shelter in a new vessel most likely the revived vessel.

[LeYenrz 276]

well, looking at all of your posts, it seems that my theory seems to be not so far fetched anymore. My opinion was much like Flaming Lea's and deverauxer's. And now i've sent out this post it seems that I'm not alone. Although i had meant to explain my opinion more in the original post, i was short on time. But i guess you guys explained the rest of it for me. 

[outbackjim21 83]

 

xion, undoubtably she gained a heart during 358 days, but the concept is established, it doesn't matter that the heart doesn't belong to the body, not a single person be it the characters or nomura himself have stated that this is an exception to the rule of being able to grow a heart or not.  #1- the scene showed all three people that are asleep in Sora in the scene with Ansem the Wise and his info on his data . You say Xion but purposely exclude the others shown in that scene bc you do know they also include Ven and Roxas. They were present bc they were inside Sora like Ansem's data was . #2- Who said it was an exception - Xemnas said if a person loses his heart his body will grow it back . Ven's heart was not his and dormant- contributing none of Ven's memories or sense of self making it nonfunctioning so your logic there is flawed.  And yes Roxas and the others mentioned are sleeping within Sora's heart, but explain this then, what happens when a nobody that has grown a heart disappears and is reformed (I.e Lea) what happens to the original and the newly formed? Does that mean lea has two hearts now, or did the hearts merge together, or maybe it evenKicked out the newly formed or ignored the original. And what about apprentice xehanort, his memories are sealed as well, did he grow a new heart? This is the downside of nomura playing things by ear, plot holes form. But until they are filled I believe that Roxas is not his own person yet, though he has an identity, that identity does not have a heart to call its own, very similar to a nobody, yet because Roxas does indeed have a heart it means he is not a nobody, technically. Two different things are going on here  . The other nobodies who grew new hearts like Lea still had their memories and experiences from before so if they started to grow new hearts with new memories and experiences it would make sense for them to prolly merge with their original . Roxas and Xion did not have any prior memories and experiences to drawl from but instead had their own new memories and experiences they built to grow their own heart with as well as their own identity . AX had  Terra's heart too with his body so he truly wasn't missing his body's original heart . Both examples you are asking about are not the same circumstances AT ALL..Also Nomura himself called Roxas and Xemnas special nobodies with special circumstances. Also in KH peoples 'identities" and sense of self are part of what makes a person's HEART. Why do you think if MX's heart took control of Terra's body he would identify himself as Xehanort? As it stands, not a single character,awake on the light side, aside from Mickey and yen Sid ,even have a clue as to where ventus is, or even who he is, Every character is pretty much talking out of their ass when they say Roxas is his own person that he has his own heart. Because they have no idea of ventus' existence and the fact that ventus' heart was within Roxas.  If they have no idea Ven's heart was in Roxas  but yet still claimed he had his own identity and heart ( which clearly wasn't Ven's identity and memories and experiences)  you are actually proving he grew his own heart . Just sayin'.. Now you claim that everyone in game is talking out of their ass but you pulled that outta your ass since you are just assuming .In game content is more canon then your assumption everyone is talking out of their asses .

Q3: Is it possible that Roxas has a heart?A: It is thought that it could be Ventus’ heart.In KHII FM there were clues to him having a heart, and in Days we saw Roxas crying--proof that he could have a heart. As was said in Q1, he has taken a lot of himself from Ventus. But perhaps when Sora and Roxas were separated, Ventus’ heart stayed in Roxas?Wow, the power of an interview from the director himself. And just because Roxas is sleeping within sora does not mean that he has a heart of his own, it's like a split personality disorder with Ven and Roxas one heart/mind two different sets ofmemories,experiences, and identities. And how is my logic flawed, has nomura explicitly expressed that because ven's heart is being repaired that it can't be accessed to draw emotion from, or in other words be a substitute heart for a foreign body. And by saying that lea's two hearts from two different sets of memories and friendships that fostered the respected heart merged together is you speculating as well, which in the end is what nomura wants us to do when going into KH3. And based on your logic invoking dormant hearts, since AX and Terra's memories were sealed, as far as we know, at the end of BBS then a new heart could be formed that refered to itself as xehanort because that's what ansem the wise thought his name was.And in reference to the other characters not knowing that ven's heart was within Roxas. If I were to give you a box, and you looked inside that boxed, would you be able to tell me the contents in the box? Now what if I told you the contents of that box were actually from a complelty different box, you had no idea the contents were not original to that box, you assumed it was because you didn't have any information stating otherwise, much like the characters in KH when speaking of Roxas' heart. So how is that proving your point?

[LeYenrz 276]

Q3: Is it possible that Roxas has a heart?A: It is thought that it could be Ventus’ heart.In KHII FM there were clues to him having a heart, and in Days we saw Roxas crying--proof that he could have a heart. As was said in Q1, he has taken a lot of himself from Ventus. But perhaps when Sora and Roxas were separated, Ventus’ heart stayed in Roxas?Wow, the power of an interview from the director himself.And just because Roxas is sleeping within sora does not mean that he has a heart of his own, it's like a split personality disorder with Ven and Roxas one heart/mind two different sets ofmemories,experiences, and identities. And how is my logic flawed, has nomura explicitly expressed that because ven's heart is being repaired that it can't be accessed to draw emotion from, or in other words be a substitute heart for a foreign body.And by saying that lea's two hearts from two different sets of memories and friendships that fostered the respected heart merged together is you speculating as well, which in the end is what nomura wants us to do when going into KH3. And based on your logic invoking dormant hearts, since AX and Terra's memories were sealed, as far as we know, at the end of BBS then a new heart could be formed that refered to itself as xehanort because that's what ansem the wise thought his name was.And in reference to the other characters not knowing that ven's heart was within Roxas. If I were to give you a box, and you looked inside that boxed, would you be able to tell me the contents in the box? Now what if I told you the contents of that box were actually from a complelty different box, you had no idea the contents were not original to that box, you assumed it was because you didn't have any information stating otherwise, much like the characters in KH when speaking of Roxas' heart. So how is that proving your point?

Your thinking IS flawed. Have you paid attention to anyh of the other members' posts? The flaming lea not to mention quite a few others stated that the heart and the identity are the SAME things. And what flaming lea is trying to argue is that despite Sora and co. not knowing who the hell Ven is, they apparently identify him in a way that's completely different from Ven's character. You see, since the heart and the identity are the same, the memory is the product of them. So if they identify him in another way, that means that they recognize that he has a different heart than ven.

[outbackjim21 83]

To understand any of what I've been saying you need to understand the concept of the heart as defined by Nomura.–What is the definition of a heart in Kingdom Hearts?Nomura: It is the theme of the series. To explain it simply, a person has a body, a soul, and a heart. As an image, the soul is the life source, without it a person would be dead. Since the heart doesn’t have a form, memories play an important part in forming a heart. Also, the heart isn’t limited to people, but to all things. I tried to explain this concept to Disney, and they merely said that it must be an Eastern way of thinking. It may be interesting how overseas players think of it.To have memories is to have a heart, memories rubbed together spark emotion which in turn nurtures the heart. These elements at what form an identity. To say one has an identity and to say one has a heart is one and the same. Sora saw and felt that Roxas was a different identity. It was this that allowed Roxas to manifest within Sora's heart, it was this that allowed him to choice his own form within the data scape. To say that Roxas has no heart is to say that Roxas cannot be saved as there is nothing left of him to save. As for the two hearts I believe as with the ressurection the two halfs return to the whole. Since the two hearts are made of the same identity the would most likely inter grate. However if the new heart has formed its own identity it will seek shelter in a new vessel most likely the revived vessel.

Then at the very beginning of a nobody's exist, an existence that is nothing but memories and the identity of its former self, does it have a heart as soon as it is born? Sora and Roxas both, have no idea of their connection to ventus, and I'm not saying that Roxas cannot be saved, he exists within sora, ansem the wise explicitly stated that sora can save the hearts AND existences of those we thought were lost. Just because he doesn't have a heart doesn't mean he can't be reborn with one. And with the identities integrating, lea can be a perfect example of this, lea had dreams and friendships before he became a nobody, but after becoming one he renounced both those dreams and friendships in favor of his new found dreams and friendships with Roxas and xion, he IDENTIFIES himself with the memories of those two and the dream of being with them. Though this could be counteracted by lea calling saix by his original name. Edited January 7, 2014 by outbackjim21

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Q3: Is it possible that Roxas has a heart?A: It is thought that it could be Ventus’ heart.In KHII FM there were clues to him having a heart, and in Days we saw Roxas crying--proof that he could have a heart. As was said in Q1, he has taken a lot of himself from Ventus. But perhaps when Sora and Roxas were separated, Ventus’ heart stayed in Roxas?Wow, the power of an interview from the director himself.

 

Dude we already established we knew Roxas had Ven's heart .So what are you trying to prove since that was completely pointless to post ? Where does it say he could not grow his own as well? Does it ever say he could not have grown his own also ? Nope . Moot point . Not to mention DDD was made much later and it's plot wasn't even thought of yet . however  now that it is it is canon since it introduced new plot material . :LOOKIE I CAN POST INTERVIEWS THAT ACTUALLY APPLY TO MY POINT YAYYYYYY !

 

 Speaking of the previous titles, about when do you start thinking of the ‘next title’?

Nomura: It’s a gradual process. When Kingdom Hearts was in production, I was considering ideas for Kingdom Hearts II and Chain of Memories. And when those two were in production, I was thinking of ideas for the next three, 358/2 Days, Coded, and Birth by Sleep.

— Were you thinking of KH3D when those 3 titles were in production?

Nomura: KH3D was put together relatively quickly, I was still concepting the story when I brought it to the table.

And just because Roxas is sleeping within sora does not mean that he has a heart of his own, it's like a split personality disorder with Ven and Roxas one heart/mind two different sets ofmemories,experiences, and identities. And how is my logic flawed, has nomura explicitly expressed that because ven's heart is being repaired that it can't be accessed to draw emotion from, or in other words be a substitute heart for a foreign body.

 

 Roxas did NOT have Ven's emotions , personality,memories or experiences . What part of that do you not get ? The heart is a big part of ones IDENTITY- the one thing you acknowledged the game said Roxas had - . You are totally contradicting yourself left and right . Your logic is flawed bc the heart was broken and dormant and did not provide experiences,memories or ven's identity so it provided nothing that the body needed it for therefore the body needed to make one that could .Still follows what Xemnas said. 

 

And by saying that lea's two hearts from two different sets of memories and friendships that fostered the respected heart merged together is you speculating as well, which in the end is what nomura wants us to do when going into KH3. And based on your logic invoking dormant hearts, since AX and Terra's memories were sealed, as far as we know, at the end of BBS then a new heart could be formed that refered to itself as xehanort because that's what ansem the wise thought his name was.

 

Ummm no you asked my OPINION on what would happen in that scenario with nobodies like lea -- and based on FACTS- that he had memories, experiences and etc from his prior life still UNLIKE ROXAS it would make sense the new memories and experiences from  his new heart would merge with the ones he had . As for AX they weren't sealed per se - they were fighting for control and we learn later MX's heart won since it was his plans Xemnas followed. The amnesia was even hinted to be faked to a point so the other members would follow his hidden agenda.The heart was never said to be dormant in AX.And in reference to the other characters not knowing that ven's heart was within Roxas. If I were to give you a box, and you looked inside that boxed, would you be able to tell me the contents in the box? Now what if I told you the contents of that box were actually from a complelty different box, you had no idea the contents were not original to that box, you assumed it was because you didn't have any information stating otherwise, much like the characters in KH when speaking of Roxas' heart. So how is that proving your point?

 

You prove my point bc you sit there one moment saying well where does anyone ( like Xemnas for example ) specifically say something in game or it's not canon but then when in game characters DO say something you then claim they don't know what they are talking about . Contradictory and illogical reasoning right there . When a character says another character is their own person with their own sense of identity with their very own memories and experiences they are saying the same thing as if they had their own heart since that IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF WHAT MAKES A HEART IN KH LORE. Several people are pointing this out to you and you ignore the point bc it doesn't suit your purpose like you have done several times already in prior posts.You clearly do not understand the meaning and concepts of what hearts are in KH and what they represent in a person and how they make who they are .We have tried to explain this concept to you but you keep ignoring it .

Your thinking IS flawed. Have you paid attention to anyh of the other members' posts? The flaming lea not to mention quite a few others stated that the heart and the identity are the SAME things. And what flaming lea is trying to argue is that despite Sora and co. not knowing who the hell Ven is, they apparently identify him in a way that's completely different from Ven's character. You see, since the heart and the identity are the same, the memory is the product of them. So if they identify him in another way, that means that they recognize that he has a different heart than ven.

 

This guy likes to ignore the points everyone has been making about what makes a heart and identity and how they are the same thing. XDDD

Edited January 7, 2014 by Flaming Lea

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

Then at the very beginning of a nobody's exist, an existence that is nothing but memories and the identity of its former self, does it have a heart as soon as it is born? Sora and Roxas both, have no idea of their connection to ventus, and I'm not saying that Roxas cannot be saved, he exists within sora, ansem the wise explicitly stated that sora can save the hearts AND existences of those we thought were lost. Just because he doesn't have a heart doesn't mean he can't be reborn with one. And with the identities integrating, lea can be a perfect example of this, lea had dreams and friendships before he became a nobody, but after becoming one he renounced both those dreams and friendships in favor of his new found dreams and friendships with Roxas and xion, he IDENTIFIES himself with the memories of those two and the dream of being with them. Though this could be counteracted by lea calling saix by his original name.

Well for starters you've misinterpreted what I've said. It is not just the memory that makes the heart. Memories give the heart shape. Interaction with the light or other hearts creates connections that nurture hearts These elements combined are what create the identity. The nobodies who retained there memories retained had only on part of the spark it still takes interaction with other hearts which is something Roxas and Xion later provided. Also Axel never renounced his former identity in fact he did the exact opposite something Siax constantly mocked Axel for. Despite not having a heart he used his memories he had retained as a nobody and his interactions with Roxas as a way for him to begin regrowing his own.

[outbackjim21 83]

you aren't understanding what I'm trying to convey, by Roxas having ventus' heart, I'm not saying that he IS Ven, that he IS based on Ven as an individual, but that he can use Ven's heart to give himself an identity, through using ven's heart to draw emotions from, hell, you could even say he drew from vanitas' negative emotions, if he still exist within Ven. But it's also possible that the replacement the body so desperately wanted was in fact ventus' otherwise, what was the point of it leaving Sora's heart, the original resting ground for ventus' broken heart.

And the concept of identity was established in COM, with repliku his identity was that of a replica, his memories were that of his time as a replica,but when they were rewritten, he gained the identity of Riku, same heart, two identities, and as stated memories are never truly gone, just locked away much like ventus' heart within Roxas . And like I said, the possibility of roxas having grown a heart is there, but I just believe that he is using ven's heart in order to show emotion. Roxas can't access ventus' memories, those that are sealed, so he creates new ones relative to himself. similar as to what Riku replica has done. This shows .that just because the hearts original memories are sealed that it cannot make/interpret new ones and give itself a new identity while still having the original sealed within itself., but before you say I am contradicting myself, understand that through my perspective there is only one heart within Roxas up to this point, that heart being ventus. If I believed there were two, this would be illogical.

 

I am not ignoring your arguments,I'm am simply stating reasons I do not believe Roxas has his own personal heart yet, some of the world's greatest treaties/ideas were created because ,within a group, one person was assigned to be the guy who propositioned the opposite plan, if everyone thought the same way, the same answer would be born each time. And if you go back through every post I have made on these forums, not specifically just this topic, I place counter arguments to my own theories just because there are so many roads nomura can choose to take.

Edited January 7, 2014 by outbackjim21

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

you aren't understanding what I'm trying to convey, by Roxas having ventus' heart, I'm not saying that he IS Ven, that he IS based on Ven as an individual, but that he can use Ven's heart to give himself an identity, through using ven's heart to draw emotions from, hell, you could even say he drew from vanitas' negative emotions, if he still exist within Ven. But it's also possible that the replacement the body so desperately wanted was in fact ventus' otherwise, what was the point of it leaving Sora's heart, the original resting ground for ventus' broken heart.And the concept of identity was established in COM, with repliku his identity was that of a replica, his memories were that of his time as a replica,but when they were rewritten, he gained the identity of Riku, same heart, two identities, and as stated memories are never truly gone, just locked away much like ventus' heart within Roxas . And like I said, the possibility of roxas having grown a heart is there, but I just believe that he is using ven's heart in order to show emotion. Roxas can't access ventus' memories, those that are sealed, so he creates new ones relative to himself. similar as to what Riku replica has done. This shows .that just because the hearts original memories are sealed that it cannot make/interpret new ones and give itself a new identity while still having the original sealed within itself., but before you say I am contradicting myself, understand that through my perspective there is only one heart within Roxas up to this point, that heart being ventus. If I believed there were two, this would be illogical.

 

 

**Sigh***

 

Ven's heart was in slumber and was still healing . His memories weren't being manipulated or contorted. There was no memories and experiences to even use to add new stuff onto.  Ven's heart almost DIED and sought refuge and was dormant aka INACTIVE. He gave Roxas NOTHING since his heart was dormant . There wasn't anything to build on PERIOD. Roxas wasn't given a replica heart of Ven's either with all Ven's memories, experiences, emotions and identity to drawl from to add his own to. You are comparing apples with oranges here . It's like you haven't even read all the posts here to see or understand what myself and others say. It's like you are now just trying to correlate things that don't hold relevance to back up your point when they don't even relate to the same stuff

I am not ignoring your arguments,I'm am simply stating reasons I do not believe Roxas has his own personal heart yet, some of the world's greatest treaties/ideas were created because ,within a group, one person was assigned to be the guy who propositioned the opposite plan, if everyone thought the same way, the same answer would be born each time. And if you go back through every post I have made on these forums, not specifically just this topic, I place counter arguments to my own theories just because there are so many roads nomura can choose to take.

 

This whole post made no sense bc you say you aren't ignoring our arguments but that's EXACTLY what you are doing. We have explained over and over why Roxas would've grown his own heart and what the concept of the heart is in KH- the sense of self,memories, and experiences along with emotions all built together to make ones heart . Ven's heart gave none of these so Roxas grew one who could . Simple . .It's not about people having to think the same - it's about people using canon material and understanding the concepts behind KH lore to know whats going on .Something you have totally left out since you don't even acknowledge the heart is also the identity. Roxas did NOT identify himself as Ven . He identified himself as HIMSELF- his very own person . You aren't providing much to argue your own half let alone counterargue your own argument. You keep talking about stuff that is irrelevant ( like posting an interview saying roxas had ven's heart . Well no shit! ) Or talking about stuff that is not even the same situation at all which also makes it irrelevant. Therefore you are getting nowhere except to have several people keep repeating the same stuff over and over bc you do ignore their points

[Ultima Spark 753]

To understand any of what I've been saying you need to understand the concept of the heart as defined by Nomura.–What is the definition of a heart in Kingdom Hearts?Nomura: It is the theme of the series. To explain it simply, a person has a body, a soul, and a heart. As an image, the soul is the life source, without it a person would be dead. Since the heart doesn’t have a form, memories play an important part in forming a heart. Also, the heart isn’t limited to people, but to all things. I tried to explain this concept to Disney, and they merely said that it must be an Eastern way of thinking. It may be interesting how overseas players think of it.To have memories is to have a heart, memories rubbed together spark emotion which in turn nurtures the heart. These elements at what form an identity. To say one has an identity and to say one has a heart is one and the same. Sora saw and felt that Roxas was a different identity. It was this that allowed Roxas to manifest within Sora's heart, it was this that allowed him to choice his own form within the data scape. To say that Roxas has no heart is to say that Roxas cannot be saved as there is nothing left of him to save. As for the two hearts I believe as with the ressurection the two halfs return to the whole. Since the two hearts are made of the same identity the would most likely inter grate. However if the new heart has formed its own identity it will seek shelter in a new vessel most likely the revived vessel.

 

...did you actually write that (the second paragraph, not the Nomura part), or did you take that from the KH Info Block? I want to know.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Ultima Spark