Anti-Form, DiZ as a SoD, and why Xehanort renamed himself "Ansem"

[Hazimie 1,595]

1.In simple way, Sora got the Anti-Form by the Drive Form's effect,nothing specialty from the heart.And not just that,it was an extra Drive Form that Nomura put on that game...

 

2. I'm not sure if Ansem was one of the 13 Vessel.Sure,he is wearing the black coat and he fits all the similarities that you mention,but he still believes that Sora can save everyone including him unlike Xehanort's personality,who wants to use X-Blade to summon Kingdom Hearts,that effects all the vessels.

 

3.Still not know if these matches are fit.Don't forget that Xehanort said that Sora was one of them and i'm pretty sure,Sora was kinda like Vanitas if he became one of them instead of the matches that you put.

 

These are my opinions.I didn't mean to disagree all your theories,but these is also my theories as well and i respect your theories too.Hope you understand...

Edited June 26, 2013 by Hazimie

[Gogo 11]

I think Xigbar was aware but I'm still not sold on Saix for all the previous reasons stated .. Think about it, MX's primary reason was to summon Kingdom Hearts. In KH1 Ansem fabricated one using the hearts of all worlds . Xemnas wanted to do the same but instead using the hearts of people . If either incarnation succeeded they would not need to use the 13 vessels bc that was supposedly a back up plan if they failed . Then if both incarnations plans failed they had the 13 vessels and time travel as another back up plan .Basically Nomura is just making this shit up as he goes. It's obvious by making Saix a vessel when he was clearly a traitor and was unaware of what Xemnas was hiding is just another example of what i'm saying.

If Xemnas could lie to the original Org about the true purpose of the KH of Peoples' Heart, I'm sure he could do the same thing to Xigbar and Saix with the real KH. Also, there's the fact that Saix was changing physically; given that he's clearly no idiot, he wouldn't just dismiss the fact that he's looking more and more like Xemnas as unimportant.

As for the "Sora's power will be ours" part they were most likely referring to they needed to utilize his keyblade to gather all the peoples hearts they needed just like they stated in KH2 when Saix told him to go forth and kill more heartless. .Basically we are just catching all the problems/plotholes created by Nomura when he adds whatever he feels like without seeing how it affects previous game events/canon .[/size]

 

 

You're misunderstanding the Organization's intial plan was to allow both Sora and Roxas to exist and harvest hearts for Kingdom Hearts as long as the two remained unaware of each other everything would have went smoothly. However thanks to Marluxia's manipualtion of Sora the plan was scrapped. Sora began acting against the Organization and was thus deemed a threat. The Organization then created Xion an imperfect replica of Sora using Vexen Replica program. The idea was that Xion would siphon power of Roxas (who in turn drew power from Sora) and as long two remained in sync they both could exist elimnating the need for Sora while still retaining his power. However that plan back fired when Xion started taking to much power from Roxas. It was then decided that the stronger of the two would absorb the latter creating a perfect replica of Sora. A plus side to that was because they began housing Sora's memories Sora would be unable to wake up. Thus they would have Sora's full power without having to use the real Sora who defied their plans.

 

"Vessel" is a powerful word though, one that could have easily referred to the 13 SoD (especially considering how it was a conversation between 3 other SoD). Sure, you could say "vessel for Sora's power", but why would Xemnas say "Sora's power will finally be ours?" It's been in their hands since Roxas joined the Org. It'd make more sense if they were talking about the SoD harbouring Sora's power instead.

 

1.In simple way, Sora got the Anti-Form by the Drive Form's effect,nothing specialty from the heart.And not just that,it was an extra Drive Form that Nomura put on that game...

Anti-Form is, canonically, a side-effect from becoming a Heartless.

 

2. I'm not sure if Ansem was one of the 13 Vessel.Sure,he is wearing the black coat and he fits all the similarities that you mention,but he still believes that Sora can save everyone including him unlike Xehanort's personality,who wants to use X-Blade to summon Kingdom Hearts,that effects all the vessels.

Well he did have Xehanort's personality, as DiZ. Sure, he could've end up like Riku and developed a resistance to darkness, but there probably wasn't a lot of time to do that since the end of KH2.

 

3.Still not know if these matches are fit.Don't forget that Xehanort said that Sora was one of them and i'm pretty sure,Sora was kinda like Vanitas if he became one of them instead of the matches that you put.

Well, point is that Xehanort clearly inherited certain traits of AtW. The finer points of that connection is open for interpretation.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

If Xemnas could lie to the original Org about the true purpose of the KH of Peoples' Heart, I'm sure he could do the same thing to Xigbar and Saix with the real KH. Also, there's the fact that Saix was changing physically; given that he's clearly no idiot, he wouldn't just dismiss the fact that he's looking more and more like Xemnas as unimportant.  "Vessel" is a powerful word though, one that could have easily referred to the 13 SoD (especially considering how it was a conversation between 3 other SoD). Sure, you could say "vessel for Sora's power", but why would Xemnas say "Sora's power will finally be ours?" It's been in their hands since Roxas joined the Org. It'd make more sense if they were talking about the SoD harbouring Sora's power instead. Anti-Form is, canonically, a side-effect from becoming a Heartless. Well he did have Xehanort's personality, as DiZ. Sure, he could've end up like Riku and developed a resistance to darkness, but there probably wasn't a lot of time to do that since the end of KH2. Well, point is that Xehanort clearly inherited certain traits of AtW. The finer points of that connection is open for interpretation.

 

I agree that Xemnas could still be lying to both Saix and Xigbar . It's what he does best .I just think if anyone had a better chance at knowing what was really going on its xigbarb as we know he knows the most of MX's plan. But it most certainly is possible neither know MX's full plan detail for detail . As for Saix's physical look , he mighta thought his changes were due to becoming a nobody like Axel's tear drops. Like I said, I just don't buy that Saix knew fully what was happening to him bc it makes no logical sense considering the events of Days and his and Axel's conspiracy.Unless he was playing both sides which i suppose is possible . Why do you think Axel looked so shocked when he saw 'Isa' in TWTNW  in DDD ? It also doesn't explain Saix's reaction to death in comparison to Xigbars (who did know and just laughed )

 

As for the term vessel and the soras power quote , you are the one who likes to throw out the term ambiguous, and neither phrase fully supports what you are trying to say as it can be taken in other ways as previously stated. Roxas was utilizing Soras powers. Literally. He was using his keyblade. Xion was a copy .She was drawing off poor roxas who drew off of Sora. When it all comes down to it the org was utilizing Sora's power regardless of what form .

[Gogo 11]

I agree that Xemnas could still be lying to both Saix and Xigbar . It's what he does best .I just think if anyone had a better chance at knowing what was really going on its xigbarb as we know he knows the most of MX's plan. But it most certainly is possible neither know MX's full plan detail for detail . As for Saix's physical look , he mighta thought his changes were due to becoming a nobody like Axel's tear drops. Like I said, I just don't buy that Saix knew fully what was happening to him bc it makes no logical sense considering the events of Days and his and Axel's conspiracy.Unless he was playing both sides which i suppose is possible . Why do you think Axel looked so shocked when he saw 'Isa' in TWTNW  in DDD ? It also doesn't explain Saix's reaction to death in comparison to Xigbars (who did know and just laughed )

As for looks, well. Whether he'd be 'Norted before or after becoming a Nobody (maybe even during, but that just raises a lot of questions) I think he would notice the change; I don't recall Nobodies being able to morph appearances after birth, especially considering how they can't age (or at least under normal circumstances).As for his death speech, could be retconning, or maybe he's just a tired man who's made no progress in what he really wants. It doesn't have to be that way, but it's a possibility. 

As for the term vessel and the soras power quote , you are the one who likes to throw out the term ambiguous, and neither phrase fully supports what you are trying to say as it can be taken in other ways as previously stated.

I'm not saying that "it has to be taken this way," rather I'm saying that "it's easier to see it this way because of reasons A and B."

Roxas was utilizing Soras powers. Literally. He was using his keyblade. Xion was a copy .She was drawing off poor roxas who drew off of Sora. When it all comes down to it the org was utilizing Sora's power regardless of what form .

Yeah, that's what I said. The Org had Sora's power, but the SoD did not. Edited June 26, 2013 by Gogo

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

As for looks, well. Whether he'd be 'Norted before or after becoming a Nobody (maybe even during, but that just raises a lot of questions) I think he would notice the change; I don't recall Nobodies being able to morph appearances after birth, especially considering how they can't age (or at least under normal circumstances).As for his death speech, could be retconning, or maybe he's just a tired man who's made no progress in what he really wants. It doesn't have to be that way, but it's a possibility. I'm not saying that "it has to be taken this way," rather I'm saying that "it's easier to see it this way because of reasons A and B."Yeah, that's what I said. The Org had Sora's power, but the SoD did not.

 

But if he was implanted at the same time he was made a nobody he wouldn't notice anything in that aspect. We don't know how exactly Isa and lea became nobodies, but we can speculate. We last saw them trying to sneak into the castle and getting kicked out. They might've snuck in again in the future and got caught and were experimented on . Since we know Saix was norted from the moment we saw him it would make sense to see this is prolly where he was implanted and where he became a nobody along with Lea who we know became a nobody and joined along with him at the same time. Afterall, later on the experiments took place there by the apprentices. Again , speculation but makes sense..Anyways, regardless, say Saix was playing both sides, this is still not what anyone would call 'loyalty' since it's not exactly loyal to any side. It's confirmed fact he was planning to rebel and was trying to figure out what Xemnas was really up to. Also, just to point out another interesting point, Xemnas said others weren't worthy vessels bc they proved weak by being destroyed by Riku and Sora . But Xemnas himself, Xigbar and Saix, all known vessels, were destroyed by Sora ( and riku with xemnas).This is why these conditions Xemnas stated still don't really add up anyways.

 

 

" I'm not saying that "it has to be taken this way," rather I'm saying that "it's easier to see it this way because of reasons A and B."Yeah, that's what I said. The Org had Sora's power, but the SoD did not."

 

But it makes just as much sense that since the org was basically syphoning off Sora's powers through Roxas while he battled sharing it with Xion on top of everything else .Then they had to deal with Riku running around trying to do what needs to be done to wake up Sora and the org was in constant danger of losing that power so it never was completely 'theirs'.Especially bc Roxas was a zombie when they found him and did not remember who he was or his past. For him to find out the truth could and did cause him to leave so them having Sora's power was always in limbo. 

 

 

Btw After rechecking that video about the vessels, I realized you did not actually put the entire context of what they were talking about which completely changes the meaning of what they were referring to-  they were discussing Sora's affects on Xion and Xion on Roxas and how they needed to pick one or the other - not vessels in the way you were speaking of. Also i rechecked the original scene and it's there too so considering DDD plot wasn't even conceived back during Days it can't be referring to vessels in the context you are referring to.I mistakenly thought it was changed bc I didn't watch that part you posted just read what you wrote was said.My bad.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Flaming Lea

[Rob 5,571]

I dont think Ansem The Wise will be a 13th darkness because of his eyes. If anything, his eyes only symbolized him giving into darkness to get revenge on his apprentices.

[Gogo 11]

But if he was implanted at the same time he was made a nobody he wouldn't notice anything in that aspect. We don't know how exactly Isa and lea became nobodies, but we can speculate. We last saw them trying to sneak into the castle and getting kicked out. They might've snuck in again in the future and got caught and were experimented on .

It's possible, yes, but it begs the question: if Xehanortification is that quick, where's everyone else's golden eyes/pointy ears? That was partially the point of the Org; to find candidates. It'd only be possible if Saix (as Isa) was SUPER special, if Xigbar and Saix were the only successful vessels (which itself is debatable, but I personally think it'd be hard to fill those seats otherwise), and if Xemnas decided to skip Roxas for whatever reasons.

Since we know Saix was norted from the moment we saw him it would make sense to see this is prolly where he was implanted and where he became a nobody along with Lea who we know became a nobody and joined along with him at the same time.

It's a possible scenario, but I wouldn't say that the fact that he's always been seen as a vessel tells us anything about how he became one.

Anyways, regardless, say Saix was playing both sides, this is still not what anyone would call 'loyalty' since it's not exactly loyal to any side. It's confirmed fact he was planning to rebel and was trying to figure out what Xemnas was really up to.

I still find it unconvincing for him to have gone through the entirety of KH2 "mind-controlled." I don't think he could've upheld the Org without having some sort of reasoning behind it, unless he was under complete mind-control; needless to say, we already know what that looks like, and Saix didn't fit that. Doesn't really make much sense.Come to think of it, I think that, besides a heart, Saix also really wanted power. And Xemnas knew that. So, Xemnas would offer Saix an opportunity to become one of the SoD, who would, in their eyes, become the next rulers of the universe.

Also, just to point out another interesting point, Xemnas said others weren't worthy vessels bc they proved weak by being destroyed by Riku and Sora . But Xemnas himself, Xigbar and Saix, all known vessels, were destroyed by Sora ( and riku with xemnas).This is why these conditions Xemnas stated still don't really add up anyways.

I recall him saying that they were weak, and just that.  

But it makes just as much sense that since the org was basically syphoning off Sora's powers through Roxas while he battled sharing it with Xion on top of everything else .Then they had to deal with Riku running around trying to do what needs to be done to wake up Sora and the org was in constant danger of losing that power so it never was completely 'theirs'.Especially bc Roxas was a zombie when they found him and did not remember who he was or his past. For him to find out the truth could and did cause him to leave so them having Sora's power was always in limbo.

Both are possibilities of what the true nature of the conversation could have been, but I wouldn't say that they have the same amount of possibility; the way I see it, one of them doesn't stretch the possible meanings of words as much as the other, especially given the nature of the people in the conversation.

I dont think Ansem The Wise will be a 13th darkness because of his eyes. If anything, his eyes only symbolized him giving into darkness to get revenge on his apprentices.

Golden eyes have been used more so as a reference to MX than corruption of darkness. Only exception so far is Vanitas, but even that's questionable. That's if AtW's eyes were golden, anyways. Edited June 26, 2013 by Gogo

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

It's possible, yes, but it begs the question: if Xehanortification is that quick, where's everyone else's golden eyes/pointy ears? That was partially the point of the Org; to find candidates. It'd only be possible if Saix (as Isa) was SUPER special, if Xigbar and Saix were the only successful vessels (which itself is debatable, but I personally think it'd be hard to fill those seats otherwise), and if Xemnas decided to skip Roxas for whatever reasons.It's a possible scenario, but I wouldn't say that the fact that he's always been seen as a vessel tells us anything about how he became one.I still find it unconvincing for him to have gone through the entirety of KH2 "mind-controlled." I don't think he could've upheld the Org without having some sort of reasoning behind it, unless he was under complete mind-control; needless to say, we already know what that looks like, and Saix didn't fit that. Doesn't really make much sense.Braig showed right away so it's feasible. Numbers 9 on couldn't have gotten norted till later bc they weren't around at the same time as the first 8 so they were the ones who Xemnas prolly needed to hook up to KH and give whole new xehanort hearts. Or Xemnas was able to possibly implant them with a piece of a newly grown heart of Xemnas possibly. No one said he was completely mind controlled by KH2. It's a process where you become more and more xehanort over time meaning xehanorts heart would affect him and his personality but not neccessarily controlling him .After axel left he had nothing left  but to follow xemnas if he even had a chance at a heart still. BUT by DDD , we see him actually possessed by Xehanort and thats a different scenario where he has little control in that scene. as for Roxas they were still trying to figure out if they were keeping Roxas or Xion around so it makes plenty of sense he wasn't norted yet. Then he went back to Sora. Play the game and you will know they spend the whole game trying to decide who is the better 'vessel' of Soras power to keep around for their plan.Come to think of it, I think that, besides a heart, Saix also really wanted power. And Xemnas knew that. So, Xemnas would offer Saix an opportunity to become one of the SoD, who would, in their eyes, become the next rulers of the universe.I recall him saying that they were weak, and just that.

Like Xehanort wants to share power . He wants to be the one to summon KH so he can create whole new universe that he deems in perfect balance.Rewatch that scene Xemnas says that being destroyed by Riku and Sora made them unworthy. Both are possibilities of what the true nature of the conversation could have been, but I wouldn't say that they have the same amount of possibility; the way I see it, one of them doesn't stretch the possible meanings of words as much as the other, especially given the nature of the people in the conversation.Golden eyes have been used more so as a reference to MX than corruption of darkness. Only exception so far is Vanitas, but even that's questionable. That's if AtW's eyes were golden, anyways.

Btw After rechecking that video about the vessels, I realized you did not actually put the entire context of what they were talking about which completely changes the meaning of what they were referring to-  they were discussing Sora's affects on Xion and Xion on Roxas and how they needed to pick one or the other - not vessels in the way you were speaking of. Also i rechecked the original scene and it's there too so considering DDD plot wasn't even conceived back during Days it can't be referring to vessels in the context you are referring to.I mistakenly thought it was changed bc I didn't watch that part you posted just read what you wrote was said.My bad. So no now you just are pretty much reaching by using this as an example and it explains why Saix was there and would still not be proof he knew or was willing.

Answers in bold

Edited June 26, 2013 by Flaming Lea

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

If Xemnas could lie to the original Org about the true purpose of the KH of Peoples' Heart, I'm sure he could do the same thing to Xigbar and Saix with the real KH. Also, there's the fact that Saix was changing physically; given that he's clearly no idiot, he wouldn't just dismiss the fact that he's looking more and more like Xemnas as unimportant.

Siax's physical appearance was changed to Nort status from the very beginning this would have meant nothing. Remember the vessels were norted before they were split in half in order for the Nort Heart to have time to completely grow without interference from the vessels heart. Considering this Siax would probably make nothing of his physical change seeing as all the nobodies had changes.

"Vessel" is a powerful word though, one that could have easily referred to the 13 SoD (especially considering how it was a conversation between 3 other SoD). Sure, you could say "vessel for Sora's power", but why would Xemnas say "Sora's power will finally be ours?" It's been in their hands since Roxas joined the Org. It'd make more sense if they were talking about the SoD harbouring Sora's power instead.

Vessel is not a powerful word at all it's been tossed around long before DDD. It has been used to describe with any type of container whether for a heart, memories,etc. If you read my post you understand the context in which they were using "vessel" and and "Sora's power". Prior to Marluxia's attempt to control Sora it was planned for both Roxas and Sora to simaltaneously exist. However they changed the plan Xion was created. Intially they wanted keep both Xion and Roxas by maintain a balance between the two. However Xion began taking to much power from Roxas not only that but she also began claiming Sora's memories as his own. This was discussed in the cutscene you claim supports your theory(which it does not). In Xemnas's own words this was not supposed to occur but it proved that Xion was more suitable for housing Sora's power. In the end they intended for Xion to absorb Roxas (The other half of Sora's power) or for Roxas reclaim Xion. Either way the would effectively have a perfect replica of Sora's power under their control. *-- So at the start of the Replica Project they didn’t have plans to get rid of Roxas?*Nomura: That's right. Originally the plan was to keep their power in balance. If it had been maintained, there would have been no need to get rid of one of them. But in the end Xion began absorbing too much power, and so they no longer needed Roxas. Xemnas had nothing to do with the plan, however, and only the people below him were concerned with it. Xemnas only cared that Kingdom Hearts be completed. Originally the Castle Oblivion plan was to use both Roxas and Sora, but since that changed it would be equally convenient to wait until Sora woke up in Kingdom Hearts II and use him then.

[Gogo 11]

Braig showed right away so it's feasible.

Debatable; it could've taken days. Even Apprentice Xehanort needed some time to change appearances, so it's possible that Xehanortification is no different.

Numbers 9 on couldn't have gotten norted till later bc they weren't around at the same time as the first 8 so they were the ones who Xemnas prolly needed to hook up to KH and give whole new xehanort hearts.

While the transformation of the apprentices can be assumed, Lea's and Saix' can't. It could've been heart extraction just as easily as them being early victims of the Heartless invasion (when you think about it, the fact that Lea became lost his heart in the lab can go either way).Faster Xehanortification via KH synchronization is feasible, although it begs the question as to how only Saix would have been the only one with results (intitial ones, at that). Assuming he was part of the initial batch.

No one said he was completely mind controlled by KH2. It's a process where you become more and more xehanort over time meaning xehanorts heart would affect him and his personality but not neccessarily controlling him .After axel left he had nothing left but to follow xemnas if he even had a chance at a heart still.

Then unless he was a mindless zombie that just went with the flow, he had reasoning for following the Org until the end.

BUT by DDD , we see him actually possessed by Xehanort and thats a different scenario where he has little control

We see him for 5 seconds; not enough time to form a conclusion like that.

Like Xehanort wants to share power . He wants to be the one to summon KH so he can create whole new universe that he deems in perfect balance.Rewatch that scene Xemnas says that being destroyed by Riku and Sora made them unworthy.

He'll need to share it with 12 other people anyways, and even if he doesn't have to, it's completely within his character to both use others and say one thing and do another.

Siax's physical appearance was changed to Nort status from the very beginning this would have meant nothing. Remember the vessels were norted before they were split in half in order for the Nort Heart to have time to completely grow without interference from the vessels heart. Considering this Siax would probably make nothing of his physical change seeing as all the nobodies had changes.

There's a difference between being born with small changes and having them grow on you.

Vessel is not a powerful word at all it's been tossed around long before DDD. It has been used to describe with any type of container whether for a heart, memories,etc. If you read my post you understand the context in which they were using "vessel" and and "Sora's power". Prior to Marluxia's attempt to control Sora it was planned for both Roxas and Sora to simaltaneously exist. However they changed the plan Xion was created. Intially they wanted keep both Xion and Roxas by maintain a balance between the two. However Xion began taking to much power from Roxas not only that but she also began claiming Sora's memories as his own. This was discussed in the cutscene you claim supports your theory(which it does not). In Xemnas's own words this was not supposed to occur but it proved that Xion was more suitable for housing Sora's power. In the end they intended for Xion to absorb Roxas (The other half of Sora's power) or for Roxas reclaim Xion. Either way the would effectively have a perfect replica of Sora's power under their control.

I understand how it would make sense for Xion to have been considered a vessel for Sora's power, and why it would make sense. However, I don't see how the other scenario is any less plausible, if not more. The conversation was vessels talking about vessels, not to mention finding the 13th seat was the ulterior purpose of the Org. It's not a stretch to say they were talking about SoD's. Edited June 27, 2013 by Gogo

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Debatable; it could've taken days. Even Apprentice Xehanort needed some time to change appearances, so it's possible that Xehanortification is no different.While the transformation of the apprentices can be assumed, Lea's and Saix' can't. It could've been heart extraction just as easily as them being early victims of the Heartless invasion (when you think about it, the fact that Lea became lost his heart in the lab can go either way).

Assumption that cannot be proved but we did see it right away about braig. You cannot prove there was a lapse of time either. AX had two whole hearts fighting for control so thats a totally different situation .The fact that Lea woke up in the lab and he also expected Isa to be there proves that they somehow were involved in the experiments in some form bc you revive where you lost your heart. Experimenting is where an ideal place to implant people easily. You just helped prove my point  if anything

 

Faster Xehanortification via KH synchronization is feasible, although it begs the question as to how only Saix would have been the only one with results (intitial ones, at that). Assuming he was part of the initial batch.Then unless he was a mindless zombie that just went with the flow, he had reasoning for following the Org until the end.We see him for 5 seconds; not enough time to form a conclusion like that.He'll need to share it with 12 other people anyways, and even if he doesn't have to, it's completely within his character to both use others and say one thing and do another.

Because maybe not everyone takes to be implanted . Theres a reason why he 'experimented ' . And he wasn't a mindless zombie nor did we say thats how it works . It would affect his mind and heart to become more and more Xehanort over time but  one would still resemble the person they originally were just like Braig/xigbar still acts like Braig despite being a vessel. They just take on Xehanort qualities little by little over time till his heart consumes them. It's CONFIRMED BY NOMURA THAT MX  CAN POSSESS ANY OF HIS VESSELS AS HE PLEASES. Like when he jumped into YMX's body . Thats what people mean by mind controlling and force of will. It's not 24/7 but if one tried to resist its reasonable to say MX would reign them back in . Thats what makes them have little choice. After Axel left , the plan was broke and Saix prolly went along with the org in desperation  thinking there might still be a chance to get his heart .Then he died . Once reformed he was more than likely having little choice after that point. Watch that final scene.Xigbar says 'do something old coot" , MX smiles, then Saix/Isa leaps to attack . He doesn't talk but stares blankly ahead . Nomura then confirms MX possesses his vessels at will .All confirmed in interviews. As for sharing with 12 other people, who said that ? No one . For all we know they all have to merge together like Ven/Vanitas

 

 

Also I edited to add more that i dont think you have seen :

 After rechecking that video about the vessels, I realized you did not actually put the entire context of what they were talking about which completely changes the meaning of what they were referring to-  they were discussing Sora's affects on Xion and Xion on Roxas and how they needed to pick one or the other - not vessels in the way you were speaking of. Also i rechecked the original scene and it's there too so considering DDD plot wasn't even conceived back during Days it can't be referring to vessels in the context you are referring to.I mistakenly thought it was changed bc I didn't watch that part you posted just read what you wrote was said.My bad. So no now you just are pretty much reaching by using this as an example and it explains why Saix was there and would still not be proof he knew or was willing.

 

Edit: Working on devereauxr's post

[Gogo 11]

Assumption that cannot be proved but we did see it right away about braig. You cannot prove there was a lapse of time either. AX had two whole hearts fighting for control so thats a totally different situation .The fact that Lea woke up in the lab and he also expected Isa to be there proves that they somehow were involved in the experiments in some form bc you revive where you lost your heart. Experimenting is where an ideal place to implant people easily. You just helped prove my point if anything

You misunderstand me as someone trying to prove/disprove things; I'm trying to prove that certain scenarios are possible, nothing more. You assumed that Braig had an immediate transformation by saying, "Braig showed right away" without a hint of possibility otherwise; I didn't say it wasn't true, I said it was debatable.As for Lea/Isa, they were in a Heartless Lab. They could've been attacked by Heartless just as easily.

Because maybe not everyone takes to be implanted . Theres a reason why he 'experimented ' .

Assuming that they were, in fact, experimented on; speculation based on speculation.Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the idea is impossible, or even that it's not a plausible scenario. Honestly, it's believeable. I'm just saying that there are other theories that are just as believable.

And he wasn't a mindless zombie nor did we say thats how it works . It would affect his mind and heart to become more and more Xehanort over time but one would still resemble the person they originally were just like Braig/xigbar still acts like Braig despite being a vessel. They just take on Xehanort qualities little by little over time till his heart consumes them.

Well then I fail to see how he'd still be in the Org without personal reasons; he already threw away the dream of overthrowing Xemnas, so what kept him there? If not someone else's will, then his own. He still holds responsibility for his actions, in that sense.

It's CONFIRMED BY NOMURA THAT MX CAN POSSESS ANY OF HIS VESSELS AS HE PLEASES. Like when he jumped into YMX's body . Thats what people mean by mind controlling and force of will.

Well yeah. Difference is, though, that you can tell when someone's held against there will; it's essentially a complete switch in personality to that of the controller. I wouldn't call Xehanortification the same thing.

It's not 24/7 but if one tried to resist its reasonable to say MX would reign them back in . Thats what makes them have little choice.

Well that's one way to reason unwilling participation. Granted, I'm not completely sold on Saix being a case so special to be exempt from the possibility of treachery, and that the apprentices "just didn't have it."

After Axel left , the plan was broke and Saix prolly went along with the org in desperation thinking there might still be a chance to get his heart .Then he died . Once reformed he was more than likely having little choice after that point. Watch that final scene.Xigbar says 'do something old coot" , MX smiles, then Saix/Isa leaps to attack . He doesn't talk but stares blankly ahead . Nomura then confirms MX possesses his vessels at will .All confirmed in interviews.

Saix wasn't possessed there; he didn't have the glowing eyes or keyblade that Young Xehanort had. Rather, MX probably expected Saix to call dibs on Lea, and I'm not surprised.

As for sharing with 12 other people, who said that ? No one . For all we know they all have to merge together like Ven/Vanitas

That's still power that, as far as Saix would know, is just as much his as all the other SoD's.

After rechecking that video about the vessels, I realized you did not actually put the entire context of what they were talking about which completely changes the meaning of what they were referring to- they were discussing Sora's affects on Xion and Xion on Roxas and how they needed to pick one or the other - not vessels in the way you were speaking of.

Why wouldn't they be discussing Xion's worthiness as a vessel if they meant a SoD vessel? The way I see it, the conversation could have been one of two things:A: "Xion would make the more powerful vessel for Sora's power because reasons A and B"B: "Xion would make the more powerful vessel for a heart fragment because reaons A and B"

Also i rechecked the original scene and it's there too so considering DDD plot wasn't even conceived back during Days it can't be referring to vessels in the context you are referring to.I mistakenly thought it was changed bc I didn't watch that part you posted just read what you wrote was said.My bad. So no now you just are pretty much reaching by using this as an example and it explains why Saix was there and would still not be proof he knew or was willing.

DDD wasn't conceived. Turning people into Xehanorts could've been conceived as early as KH2 (most likely post-KH2, though), and this could have been foreshadowing, like how Xigbar foreshadowed past keyblade wielders.Like I said, I'm just saying these are possibilities. NOT assumptions. Edited June 27, 2013 by Gogo

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

 

Debatable; it could've taken days. Even Apprentice Xehanort needed some time to change appearances, so it's possible that Xehanortification is no different.While the transformation of the apprentices can be assumed, Lea's and Saix' can't. It could've been heart extraction just as easily as them being early victims of the Heartless invasion (when you think about it, the fact that Lea became lost his heart in the lab can go either way).Assumption that cannot be proved but we did see it right away about braig. You cannot prove there was a lapse of time either. AX had two whole hearts fighting for control so thats a totally different situation .The fact that Lea woke up in the lab and he also expected Isa to be there proves that they somehow were involved in the experiments in some form bc you revive where you lost your heart. Experimenting is where an ideal place to implant people easily. You just helped prove my point if anythingFaster Xehanortification via KH synchronization is feasible, although it begs the question as to how only Saix would have been the only one with results (intitial ones, at that). Assuming he was part of the initial batch.Then unless he was a mindless zombie that just went with the flow, he had reasoning for following the Org until the end.We see him for 5 seconds; not enough time to form a conclusion like that.He'll need to share it with 12 other people anyways, and even if he doesn't have to, it's completely within his character to both use others and say one thing and do another.Because maybe not everyone takes to be implanted . Theres a reason why he 'experimented ' . And he wasn't a mindless zombie nor did we say thats how it works . It would affect his mind and heart to become more and more Xehanort over time but one would still resemble the person they originally were just like Braig/xigbar still acts like Braig despite being a vessel. They just take on Xehanort qualities little by little over time till his heart consumes them. It's CONFIRMED BY NOMURA THAT MX CAN POSSESS ANY OF HIS VESSELS AS HE PLEASES. Like when he jumped into YMX's body . Thats what people mean by mind controlling and force of will. It's not 24/7 but if one tried to resist its reasonable to say MX would reign them back in . Thats what makes them have little choice. After Axel left , the plan was broke and Saix prolly went along with the org in desperation thinking there might still be a chance to get his heart .Then he died . Once reformed he was more than likely having little choice after that point. Watch that final scene.Xigbar says 'do something old coot" , MX smiles, then Saix/Isa leaps to attack . He doesn't talk but stares blankly ahead . Nomura then confirms MX possesses his vessels at will .All confirmed in interviews. As for sharing with 12 other people, who said that ? No one . For all we know they all have to merge together like Ven/VanitasAlso I edited to add more that i dont think you have seen : After rechecking that video about the vessels, I realized you did not actually put the entire context of what they were talking about which completely changes the meaning of what they were referring to- they were discussing Sora's affects on Xion and Xion on Roxas and how they needed to pick one or the other - not vessels in the way you were speaking of. Also i rechecked the original scene and it's there too so considering DDD plot wasn't even conceived back during Days it can't be referring to vessels in the context you are referring to.I mistakenly thought it was changed bc I didn't watch that part you posted just read what you wrote was said.My bad. So no now you just are pretty much reaching by using this as an example and it explains why Saix was there and would still not be proof he knew or was willing.Edit: Working on devereauxr's post

This pretty much covers everything I tried typing in vain attempt (It got deleted:( ).I only have to add two things to add.One that those vessels that full filled Xehanort's vessel conditions were prone to changed in physical appearance due to lack of resistance to the heart piece. Braig who had accepted it from beginning showed this phenemenom. Siax who from the very beginning showed no interest in pretending to have a heart(which would have aided in resisting the process) offered virtually no resisitance to the Nort Heart and it morphed the body thusly.Second we do not know which of the original members made the cut considering that the others were destroyed before we could see any significant changes.However some the members behavior indicated possible sucesses. I myself have reason to believe that Dilan and Even might have been sucessfull (Dilan more the Even).

You misunderstand me as someone trying to prove/disprove things; I'm trying to prove that certain scenarios are possible, nothing more. You assumed that Braig had an immediate transformation by saying, "Braig showed right away" without a hint of possibility otherwise; I didn't say it wasn't true, I said it was debatable.As for Lea/Isa, they were in a Heartless Lab. They could've been attacked by Heartless just as easily.Assuming that they were, in fact, experimented on; speculation based on speculation.Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the idea is impossible, or even that it's not a plausible scenario. Honestly, it's believeable. I'm just saying that there are other theories that are just as believable.Well then I fail to see how he'd still be in the Org without personal reasons; he already threw away the dream of overthrowing Xemnas, so what kept him there? If not someone else's will, then his own. He still holds responsibility for his actions, in that sense.Well yeah. Difference is, though, that you can tell when someone's held against there will; it's essentially a complete switch in personality to that of the controller. I wouldn't call Xehanortification the same thing.Well that's one way to reason unwilling participation. Granted, I'm not completely sold on Saix being a case so special to be exempt from the possibility of treachery, and that the apprentices "just didn't have it."Saix wasn't possessed there; he didn't have the glowing eyes or keyblade that Young Xehanort had. Rather, MX probably expected Saix to call dibs on Lea, and I'm not surprised.That's still power that, as far as Saix would know, is just as much his as all the other SoD's.Why wouldn't they be discussing Xion's worthiness as a vessel if they meant a SoD vessel? The way I see it, the conversation could have been one of two things:A: "Xion would make the more powerful vessel for Sora's power because reasons A and B"B: "Xion would make the more powerful vessel for a heart fragment because reaons A and B"DDD wasn't conceived. Turning people into Xehanorts could've been conceived as early as KH2 (most likely post-KH2, though), and this could have been foreshadowing, like how Xigbar foreshadowed past keyblade wielders.Like I said, I'm just saying these are possibilities. NOT assumptions.

Number one Nomura did not think of ANY plot point that took place in DDD during the making of the other games. That's why there are so many retcons. Number two of course you didn't see Siax's eyes glow he had his hood up up until Lea knocked his hood off. He did not need to have Isa summon MX's keyblade because as far as MX knew Lea was a low level threat(he did not know Lea was a Keyblade Wielder). Unlike Young Xehanort who needed to assimilate the full extent of MX's power in order to escape Mickey's Stopza and combat Riku another Keyblade Wielder. Edited June 27, 2013 by devereauxr

[Gogo 11]

This pretty much covers everything I tried typing in vain attempt (It got deleted:( ).I only have to add two things to add.One that those vessels that full filled Xehanort's vessel conditions were prone to changed in physical appearance due to lack of resistance to the heart piece. Braig who had accepted it from beginning showed this phenemenom. Siax who from the very beginning showed no interest in pretending to have a heart(which would have aided in resisting the process) offered virtually no resisitance to the Nort Heart and it morphed the body thusly.

From what I'm understanding from Flaming Lea, Saix may have been special enough to get 'Norted against his own will, a specialty that the other apprentices didn't happen to have. Personally, I think there's more reasonable alternatives than that particular scenario.Second, Saix' emotionless nature could just as easily have been a result of the fragment within him. Sure, Xigbar has more character, but it was MX who chose him; Saix acts more like Xemnas, the person more likely to have chosen him.

Second we do not know which of the original members made the cut considering that the others were destroyed before we could see any significant changes.However some the members behavior indicated possible sucesses. I myself have reason to believe that Dilan and Even might have been sucessfull (Dilan more the Even).

I'm with you on that. Edited June 27, 2013 by Gogo

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

From what I'm understanding from Flaming Lea, Saix may have been special enough to get 'Norted against his own will, a specialty that the other apprentices didn't happen to have. Personally, I think there's more reasonable alternatives than that particular scenario.Second, Saix' emotionless nature could just as easily have been a result of the fragment within him. Sure, Xigbar has more character, but it was MX who chose him; Saix acts more like Xemnas, the person more likely to have chosen him.I'm with you on that.

All the Apprentices were norted against their own will that's how Xemnas knew by the end which ones were inadequate because he was able gauge the failed candidates. Siax was one of the ones who had better fullfilled the the qualifications of a successful vessel then other both before the process and during it.It's not that the others didn't have the qualities just that Siax was predisposed to those qualities already just as Braig was. No Siax would not take after Xemnas as it's MX's heart piece that is being implanted. If you have a better explanation on how Siax obey his MX's command without a word being spoken between the two I would love to hear it. Nomura already confirmed MX's ability to transfer his consciousness to his vessels. Once MX has entered that vessel the suject has no control over what is happening.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

 

You misunderstand me as someone trying to prove/disprove things; I'm trying to prove that certain scenarios are possible, nothing more. You assumed that Braig had an immediate transformation by saying, "Braig showed right away" without a hint of possibility otherwise; I didn't say it wasn't true, I said it was debatable.

Anything is possible so by that logic you can say tommorrow you'll see the sky turn red  and that would be possible . Yet you and I both know that thats most likely illogical and theres nothing to prove that it could even happen or that it makes sense. We saw Braig not long after the cutscene showing MX  about to do something. There is no indication that time has elapsed. It's like you are making shit up just to say 'it could've happened " but you aren't basing it on any information , indication or proof that even says that its possible bc this little information disproves what you want to say

 

As for Lea/Isa, they were in a Heartless Lab. They could've been attacked by Heartless just as easily.Assuming that they were, in fact, experimented on; speculation based on speculation.

I never said they were definitely experimented on .I fully said that was speculation . I said there was a reason HE was experimenting meaning AX.As for Lea and Isa you are just assuming there was just wild heartless running rampant in the lab ? Pretty sure that wouldn't be smart and we do know for a fact the apprentices experimented on people so that makes little sense

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the idea is impossible, or even that it's not a plausible scenario. Honestly, it's believeable. I'm just saying that there are other theories that are just as believable.Well then I fail to see how he'd still be in the Org without personal reasons; he already threw away the dream of overthrowing Xemnas, so what kept him there? If not someone else's will, then his own. He still holds responsibility for his actions, in that sense.Well yeah. Difference is, though, that you can tell when someone's held against there will; it's essentially a complete switch in personality to that of the controller. I wouldn't call Xehanortification the same thing.Well that's one way to reason unwilling participation. Granted, I'm not completely sold on Saix being a case so special to be exempt from the possibility of treachery, and that the apprentices "just didn't have it."Saix wasn't possessed there; he didn't have the glowing eyes or keyblade that Young Xehanort had. Rather, MX probably expected Saix to call dibs on Lea, and I'm not surprised.That's still power that, as far as Saix would know, is just as much his as all the other SoD's.Why wouldn't they be discussing Xion's worthiness as a vessel if they meant a SoD vessel? The way I see it, the conversation could have been one of two things:

First off we already discussed why Saix would still go along with the org after Axel left .What choice did he have ? MX's heart piece is made to slowly take over a persons heart consuming them completely. Meaning there is still some of themselves left until eventually it will be consumed . So they will retain some of their personality and traits  yet also take on MX's. I already proved to you Saix was disloyal and planning against the Org so yes that means he was norted while being disloyal whether you want to admit to it or not. Furthermore YMX's eyes only glowed for a minute moment then went back to normal so your point about his eyes not glowing by the time his hood came off is moot. So he just happens to directly attack lea right after MX looks to him and smiles ? Please. He was looking pretty possessed to me and many others .As for Xion what part of they needed to figure out what version basically of Sora was better to keep for their purpose dont you get? Because they realized they cannot keep both .Thats a pretty damn good reason to discuss which vessel is more worthy to suit their purpose of using Soras powers to collect hearts

 

A: "Xion would make the more powerful vessel for Sora's power because reasons A and B"

B: "Xion would make the more powerful vessel for a heart fragment because reaons A and B"DDD wasn't conceived. Turning people into Xehanorts could've been conceived as early as KH2 (most likely post-KH2, though), and this could have been foreshadowing, like how Xigbar foreshadowed past keyblade wielders.

 

Like I said, I'm just saying these are possibilities. NOT assumptions.

But all you have are possibilities anyone can make up with little to back it up. No canon scenes , no interviews, no reports. All of which I have provided and so have others. So guess who looks more credible . Anyone can make up a random 'possibility' .It's another thing to back it up with WHY its possible which you have not done yet demand from others. Then when they give it to you you still deny it .

 

From what I'm understanding from Flaming Lea, Saix may have been special enough to get 'Norted against his own will, a specialty that the other apprentices didn't happen to have. Personally, I think there's more reasonable alternatives than that particular scenario.

If you have actually read my posts I think almost all the org members who turn out to be vessels are against their will . Xemnas admitted he lied to them all ( except maybe Braig)

Second, Saix' emotionless nature could just as easily have been a result of the fragment within him. Sure, Xigbar has more character, but it was MX who chose him; Saix acts more like Xemnas, the person more likely to have chosen him.I'm with you on that.

Of course he acts like MX - hes a nort .Thats the point . The more time elapses the more they get consumed and controlled by MX. 

 Dude you are just going in circles but cannot provide anything to back you up. You can make up endless possibilities .Doesn't mean they make any sense or that they are logical when you can't even provide evidence that makes it a real possibility. At least everyone here debating you has done that .Until you can you won't prove anything you are saying can be right .

Edited June 27, 2013 by Flaming Lea

[Gogo 11]

 

Number one Nomura did not think of ANY plot point that took place in DDD during the making of the other games. That's why there are so many retcons.

The vessel idea, while never having been officially revealed until DDD, was something that Nomura built up via foreshadowing. It was much more apparent in BBS, a game that was in development before Days, despite being released after. At the very least, he may have had SOME idea of Saix' and Xigbar's significance when writing KH2. Post-KH2 is more likely. 

Number two of course you didn't see Siax's eyes glow he had his hood up up until Lea knocked his hood off. He did not need to have Isa summon MX's keyblade because as far as MX knew Lea was a low level threat(he did not know Lea was a Keyblade Wielder). Unlike Young Xehanort who needed to assimilate the full extent of MX's power in order to escape Mickey's Stopza and combat Riku another Keyblade Wielder.

This is assuming there are different levels of mind-control; I don't recall that concept being in the series before.

A

ll the Apprentices were norted against their own will that's how Xemnas knew by the end which ones were inadequate because he was able gauge the failed candidates. Siax was one of the ones who had better fullfilled the the qualifications of a successful vessel then other both before the process and during it.It's not that the others didn't have the qualities just that Siax was predisposed to those qualities already just as Braig was.

Saix definitely was special to some extent, otherwise he wouldn't be a vessel. However, I'm not really convinced at the idea of Saix being held against his will throughout KH2. I find it easier to believe that he genuinely wanted something out of the Org, and possibly out of the new org. Perhaps he stayed in both Orgs for the same reasoning. 

No Siax would not take after Xemnas as it's MX's heart piece that is being implanted. If you have a better explanation on how Siax obey his MX's command without a word being spoken between the two I would love to hear it. Nomura already confirmed MX's ability to transfer his consciousness to his vessels. Once MX has entered that vessel the suject has no control over what is happening.

X

emnas is an extention of MX, so they're not necessarily the same thing. Who's to say there's no room for complications? There clearly is with XH, who doesn't even have the iconic golden eyes/pointy ears. 

Anything is possible so by that logic you can say tommorrow you'll see the sky turn red and that would be possible . Yet you and I both know that thats most likely illogical and theres nothing to prove that it could even happen or that it makes sense. We saw Braig not long after the cutscene showing MX about to do something. There is no indication that time has elapsed. It's like you are making shit up just to say 'it could've happened " but you aren't basing it on any information , indication or proof that even says that its possible bc this little information disproves what you want to say

I'm saying it's possible because you cannot make an assumption on a happening that's never even been seen before. the effects clearly didn't take long to appear, but that's NOT the same as immediate effects. Apprentice Xehanort is an example (a very different one, but an example nonetheless) of how the series has distinguished the difference between gradual and immediate effects, so why can't the series do it again?This isn't a baseless possibility.

>

I never said they were definitely experimented on .I fully said that was speculation . I said there was a reason HE was experimenting meaning AX.As for Lea and Isa you are just assuming there was just wild heartless running rampant in the lab ? Pretty sure that wouldn't be smart and we do know for a fact the apprentices experimented on people so that makes little sense

You used the word "prove" quite a few times. I'm guessing we have a different idea of what that word means.As for the Heartless, they made their way into the castle at least, even when Xehanort was still writing reports. That's how he found the heart of the world.

First off we already discussed why Saix would still go along with the org after Axel left .What choice did he have ?

I'm not saying it's impossible, but that it's also possible and reasonable for him to attack Lea just because he wanted to.

MX's heart piece is made to slowly take over a persons heart consuming them completely. Meaning there is still some of themselves left until eventually it will be consumed . So they will retain some of their personality and traits yet also take on MX's. I already proved to you Saix was disloyal and planning against the Org so yes that means he was norted while being disloyal whether you want to admit to it or not.

I've been past that point for quite a while, what I've been trying to get at was the idea of Saix being in the Org besides to overthrow it.

Furthermore YMX's eyes only glowed for a minute moment then went back to normal so your point about his eyes not glowing by the time his hood came off is moot.

Fair enough.

So he just happens to directly attack lea right after MX looks to him and smiles ? Please. He was looking pretty possessed to me and many others

I still wouldn't go so far as to assume him being controlled, especially when his appearance tells us nothing concrete. He looked like the same, emotionless person he's always been, and the silence of 5 seconds could easily be just the cold treatment. It's really not that hard to see him attacking Lea because he would want to, since they're probably not even on good terms.

.As for Xion what part of they needed to figure out what version basically of Sora was better to keep for their purpose dont you get? Because they realized they cannot keep both .Thats a pretty damn good reason to discuss which vessel is more worthy to suit their purpose of using Soras powers to collect hearts

I don't see where they ever clarified the meaning of "vessel" there. It's also a "pretty damn good reason to discuss which vessel is worthy to" suit the role of the final SoD. Why else would they "follow the keyblade?"

If you have actually read my posts I think almost all the org members who turn out to be vessels are against their will . Xemnas admitted he lied to them all ( except maybe Braig)

Your theory relies on the possibility that only members 9 up had different Xehanortification processes from the earlier members. Why label "treachery" as a reason for failure if Xehanortification is determined on the spot, as you said with Saix?

Of course he acts like MX - hes a nort .Thats the point . The more time elapses the more they get consumed and controlled by MX.

devereauxr was reasoning Saix' emotionless personality as the reason he became a successful vessel. I was saying that may not be the case.

Dude you are just going in circles but cannot provide anything to back you up. You can make up endless possibilities .Doesn't mean they make any sense or that they are logical when you can't even provide evidence that makes it a real possibility. At least everyone here debating you has done that .Until you can you won't prove anything you are saying can be right .

And yet I find it that you find it better to denounce possibilities instead; even I haven't done that to most of your ideas. I just don't agree with them, but I don't go so far as to assume they're outlandish.

    Quoting structure is a bit off, just a warning.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2013 by Gogo

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

"I'm saying it's possible because you cannot make an assumption on a happening that's never even been seen before. the effects clearly didn't take long to appear, but that's NOT the same as immediate effects. Apprentice Xehanort is an example (a very different one, but an example nonetheless) of how the series has distinguished the difference between gradual and immediate effects, so why can't the series do it again?

This isn't a baseless possibility."

 

AX was not even close to the same situation and we've already discussed why . He had two hearts fighting for control .Not even close to the same thing so thats moot.Unless there was some hidden time passing you can prove from when MX and Braig had that scene till the next showing him norted then it's safe to say the results were pretty immediate.

 

You used the word "prove" quite a few times. I'm guessing we have a different idea of what that word means.

As for the Heartless, they made their way into the castle at least, even when Xehanort was still writing reports. That's how he found the heart of the world.

 

Yes I used interviews, canon scenes, and reports. You have used nothing. As for the heartless, read the reports. They were contained in the basement . Lea and Isa revived in the lab where experiments were taking place . Gee I wonder ...

 

I've been past that point for quite a while, what I've been trying to get at was the idea of Saix being in the Org besides to overthrow it.

 

Because he still wanted a way to get a heart ? Thought that was pretty obvious .

 

I still wouldn't go so far as to assume him being controlled, especially when his appearance tells us nothing concrete. He looked like the same, emotionless person he's always been, and the silence of 5 seconds could easily be just the cold treatment. It's really not that hard to see him attacking Lea because he would want to, since they're probably not even on good terms.

 

Interview information confirming what MX is doing with his vessels and the events of that scene point otherwise but believe what you want . It's not like you would admit it was true anyways when you even deny Nomuras words as canon material and only believe cutscenes when you asked for proof of Axel and Saix's plan to begin with .

 

 don't see where they ever clarified the meaning of "vessel" there. It's also a "pretty damn good reason to discuss which vessel is worthy to" suit the role of the final SoD. Why else would they "follow the keyblade?"

 

Are you kidding me ? Play the game and you will see that they don't need to clarify the meaning of vessel there . They were clearly talking about who they thought they needed to keep bc they knew they couldn't keep both and they needed the keyblades powers to collect hearts . PLAY THE GAME.

 

Your theory relies on the possibility that only members 9 up had different Xehanortification processes from the earlier members. Why label "treachery" as a reason for failure if Xehanortification is determined on the spot, as you said with Saix?

Thats not even what i said .  I think they all were implanted ( the ones 1-8 especially) at the experiments and MX needed to see who would take and who wouldn't bc since we know it slowly consumes your heart it's POSSIBLE it could take longer for some to show more than others . Or even that they did fail but that he intended to try again using whole Xehanort hearts when he got KH as planned.  I allowed different possibilities. No one said he would know which ones would react how . If you cannot admit that Saix was disloyal and yet was still norted  after knowing damn well he was planning to rebel I don't know what to tell ya . This was proven and you know it

 

 

And yet I find it that you find it better to denounce possibilities instead; even I haven't done that to most of your ideas. I just don't agree with them, but I don't go so far as to assume they're outlandish.

I never denounced possibilities . I even gave you some .The difference is you provide little to no proof or evidence as to WHY it's possible unlike myself and others who clearly have . Yet you always demand evidence but never give ANY. It's clear that anyones ideas that prove you wrong you refuse to believe or agree with so this whole conversation is turning completely moot.Even confirmed canon material has been denied by you so this is just stupid to continue this conversation further when we will go in circles .

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Gogo" data-cid="1151198" data-time="1372304296"><p><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="devereauxr" data-cid="1151077" data-time="1372298291">X<p>emnas is an extentie">Anything is possible so by that logic you can say tommorrow you'll see the sky turn red and that would be possible . Yet you and I both know that thats most likely illogical and theres nothing to prove that it could even happen or that it makes sense. Wened " but you aren't basing it on any information , indication or proof that even says that its possible bc this little information disproves what youhy can't the series do it again?This isn't a baseless possibility.

>I never said they were definitely experimented on .I fully said that was speculation . I said there was a reaartless, they made their way into the castle at least, even when Xehanort was still writing reports. Twent back to normal so your point about his eyes not glowing by the time his hood came

Ok let me humor you for a minute. Suppose they were indeed refering to the vessels of darkness, and Siax was aware of the nortification from the very beggining. Please explain why they planned on eliminating either Roxas or Xion. Considering that between Sora,Lea,Riku and Repliku 5 of their vessels were destroyed. Wouldn't it be smart to keep both high potential vessels for implantation. If they were truly discussing what you are proposing how would Sora's power relate to either of them considering they each only held a portion of it.As for Siax if he was truly aware the entire time of the plan why hell would he be attempting to overthrow a plan he was a part of? Also why he even to his dying breath be seeking a heart if he knew he had a nort heart?

[Gogo 11]

AX was not even close to the same situation and we've already discussed why . He had two hearts fighting for control .Not even close to the same thing so thats moot.Unless there was some hidden time passing you can prove from when MX and Braig had that scene till the next showing him norted then it's safe to say the results were pretty immediate.[/size]

It's not a very relatable example, but you're not seeing what that example is trying to prove; the series makes an effort to make that distinction I said earlier, under the right circumstances. And honestly, it's a stretch to consider the potential time between the RG story and the Keyblade Graveyard story as "short enough to assume the effects were immediate."

Yes I used interviews, canon scenes, and reports. You have used nothing. As for the heartless, read the reports.Throw around "Confirmed by Nomura" all you want, that won't do you any good if those confirmations don't actually apply to what you were saying. For instance: "Nomura confirmed that MX has control over his vessels." Yeah; I'm not arguing. But what does that have to do with the idea of Saix actually wanting to be there? Xigbar showed it was possible, and there exists potential reasons why Saix would want to be in, as well.

They were contained in the basement . Lea and Isa revived in the lab where experiments were taking place . Gee I wonder ...

[/size]

Point is that shit happens, and Heartless escape. Furthermore, why can't they have been attacked by Heartless after the apprentices' departure/Heartless invasion? Or if they were experimented on, why couldn't they have just been attacked by/turned into Heartless, and that's that (as in, no special treatment for Isa)?

Because he still wanted a way to get a heart ? Thought that was pretty obvious .[/size]

That's what I've been trying to say. You can't use the fact of him staying after Axel's departure as support for the idea of him being controlled (or fear of) because he may have just stayed out of actual, genuine interest.

Interview information confirming what MX is doing with his vessels and the events of that scene point otherwise but believe what you want . It's not like you would admit it was true anyways when you even deny Nomuras words as canon material and only believe cutscenes when you asked for proof of Axel and Saix's plan to begin with .[/size]

Read what I said before about quoting Nomura.

Are you kidding me ? Play the game and you will see that they don't need to clarify the meaning of vessel there . They were clearly talking about who they thought they needed to keep bc they knew they couldn't keep both and they needed the keyblades powers to collect hearts . PLAY THE GAME.

YX said that they were considering Roxas as a potential vessel (Xion could be blamed on memory loss). DDD's conception is one thing, but do you really think that Nomura conceived the basis for Xehanortification just then? Wouldn't it make sense for it to have been an idea in the making?They didn't clarify that they wanted a "vessel" out of Sora's power for KH. Given the way the plot developed, that's pretty important ow.

Thats not even what i said . I think they all were implanted ( the ones 1-8 especially) at the experiments and MX needed to see who would take and who wouldn't bc since we know it slowly consumes your heart it's POSSIBLE it could take longer for some to show more than others . Or even that they did fail but that he intended to try again using whole Xehanort hearts when he got KH as planned. I allowed different possibilities.My assumption was based off of the experimentation part with members 1-8; my apologies if I misinterpreted what you were trying to convey.

If you cannot admit that Saix was disloyal and yet was still norted after knowing damn well he was planning to rebel I don't know what to tell ya . This was proven and you know it

[/size]

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that "treachery" is canonically a reason for a failed vessel. Even if the audience considers Saix a traitor, that does not mean that he's a traitor by the series' standards. Take it up with the writer.

I never denounced possibilities . I even gave you some .The difference is you provide little to no proof or evidence as to WHY it's possible unlike myself and others who clearly have . Yet you always demand evidence but never give ANY. It's clear that anyones ideas that prove you wrong you refuse to believe or agree with so this whole conversation is turning completely moot.Even confirmed canon material has been denied by you so this is just stupid to continue this conversation further when we will go in circles .

Let's just boil it down then.You're trying to say that Saix being forced against his will is a plausible situation.I'm trying to say that Saix actually wanting to be part of Xemnas' plans is a plausible situation.That's it. No problem.

 

 

X

emnas is an extentie">Anything is possible so by that logic you can say tommorrow you'll see the sky turn red and that would be possible . Yet you and I both know that thats most likely illogical and theres nothing to prove that it could even happen or that it makes sense. Wened " but you aren't basing it on any information , indication or proof that even says that its possible bc this little information disproves what youhy can't the series do it again?This isn't a baseless possibility.

There's a distinct difference between gradual (yet fast) effects and immediate effects. Because of that difference and how we don't know certain details about Braig getting 'Norted, Braig going through immediate effects isn't that much more plausible than otherwise.

Ok l

et me humor you for a minute. Suppose they were indeed refering to the vessels of darkness, and Siax was aware of the nortification from the very beggining. Please explain why they planned on eliminating either Roxas or Xion. Considering that between Sora,Lea,Riku and Repliku 5 of their vessels were destroyed. Wouldn't it be smart to keep both high potential vessels for implantation.

ockquote>They only had one last seat to fill, and they already predicted that one's defeat would mean the other's growth in strength.

If t

hey were truly discussing what you are proposing how would Sora's power relate to either of them considering they each only held a portion of it.

Would it make that much difference if they were talking about a potential keyblade wielder to help build KH?

As for Siax if he was truly aware the entire time of the plan why hell would he be attempting to overthrow a plan he was a part of?

He wanted to overthrow Xemnas. But, that wouldn't necessarily mean that he wouldn't be interested in what Xemnas had to offer. Otherwise, why stick around for so long, even after he abandoned that dream?

Also why he even to his dying breath be seeking a heart if he knew he had a nort heart?

A Xehanort heart clearly didn't reflect what his true personality would have been; he could've just wanted to feel like himself again.Speculation on my end, but believeable, no?

Edited June 27, 2013 by Gogo

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

It's not a very relatable example, but you're not seeing what that example is trying to prove; the series makes an effort to make that distinction I said earlier, under the right circumstances. And honestly, it's a stretch to consider the potential time between the RG story and the Keyblade Graveyard story as "short enough to assume the effects were immediate." Point is that shit happens, and Heartless escape. Furthermore, why can't they have been attacked by Heartless after the apprentices' departure/Heartless invasion? Or if they were experimented on, why couldn't they have just been attacked by/turned into Heartless, and He wanted to overthrow Xemnas. But, that wouldn't necessarily mean that he wouldn't be interested in what Xemnas had to offer. Otherwise, why stick around for so long, even after he abandoned that dream?A Xehanort heart clearly didn't reflect what his true personality would have been; he could've just wanted to feel like himself again.Speculation on my end, but believeable, no?

</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>It's not a strech to say the effects were immediate. "The heart shapes the vessel" this point has been driven into our head since the first game. If the Nort Heart met little to no resistance and had fullfilled the qualities to be a sucessfull vessel physical manifestations of Xehanort would have immediately shown themselves due to this principle. From the short time Braig was norted to time we saw him in the Keyblade Graveyard he had already taken on physical features of MX. Considering he was the only willing vessel and would have offered no resistance it's not really a stretch to say the effects were immediate.Your point on Isa and Lea is stretching if anything. It's highly unlikely that if Isa and Lea were attacked by heartless they would have revived in the exact same spot in which the other Apprentices fell and the experimention was taking place.As far as Siax staying for the entire time was due to long time plan to overthroiw the Organization. Xemnas knew that of the plan but did not mention nor do anything because he knew the attempt would be in vain because Siiax had taken as a vessel. What remained to be seen was whether Axel would take as well which he didn't.Your last point makes no sense either because according to you Siax willingly and knowingly went along with the norting. So why would he be desiring to be himself. It seems like your grapsing at this point.

[Gogo 11]

</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>It's not a strech to say the effects were immediate. "The heart shapes the vessel" this point has been driven into our head since the first game. If the Nort Heart met little to no resistance and had fullfilled the qualities to be a sucessfull vessel physical manifestations of Xehanort would have immediately shown themselves due to this principle. From the short time Braig was norted to time we saw him in the Keyblade Graveyard he had already taken on physical features of MX.

That's still no reason to dismiss Apprentice Xehanort as an exception to a happening we've never even seen before, no matter how different a case it actually is. We don't know why it took as long as he did to change, we can't assume why, and we can't say it's not plausible to be similar to the cases of SoD's. I don't jump to conclusions, not after the popular theory of Aqua being stuck in the CoR.

Considering he was the only willing vessel and would have offered no resistance it's not really a stretch to say the effects were immediate.

We don't know that. It's probable at least for the apprentices, but Saix may have actually wanted to be part of both orgs. He did want to overthrow the first one, and not leave it.

Your point on Isa and Lea is stretching if anything. It's highly unlikely that if Isa and Lea were attacked by heartless they would have revived in the exact same spot in which the other Apprentices fell and the experimention was taking place.

It's too unrealistic in a video game for two people two die at the same time and place? I don't think it sounds better than the experimentation idea, but it's not something I'd call highly unlikely, given that they have other reasons to be in the castle anyways.

As far as Siax staying for the entire time was due to long time plan to overthroiw the Organization. Xemnas knew that of the plan but did not mention nor do anything because he knew the attempt would be in vain because Siiax had taken as a vessel. What remained to be seen was whether Axel would take as well which he didn't.

Again, we don't know the circumstances of Saix's status as a vessel; I'll get into this next. All we know is that Xemnas kept quiet; that doesn't mean he didn't do anything about it.

Your last point makes no sense either because according to you Siax willingly and knowingly went along with the norting. So why would he be desiring to be himself. It seems like your grapsing at this point.

Like I said, Saix may have actually wanted to have been part of both Orgs. As for why, I think he just wanted power. Desire for power has been an important motive that's been used and abused before with a few other characters, so this wouldn't be coming out of nowhere.He would want to overthrow, and not ditch, the Org for power.He would work with Xemnas towards the KH of Peoples' Heart for power.He would willingly become a SoD for power.And the whole heart thing could be a matter of him having conflict over what he really wants.

[Demyx. 10,064]

That's still no reason to dismiss Apprentice Xehanort as an exception to a happening we've never even seen before, no matter how different a case it actually is. We don't know why it took as long as he did to change, we can't assume why, and we can't say it's not plausible to be similar to the cases of SoD's. I don't jump to conclusions, not after the popular theory of Aqua being stuck in the CoR.We don't know that. It's probable at least for the apprentices, but Saix may have actually wanted to be part of both orgs. He did want to overthrow the first one, and not leave it.It's too unrealistic in a video game for two people two die at the same time and place? I don't think it sounds better than the experimentation idea, but it's not something I'd call highly unlikely, given that they have other reasons to be in the castle anyways.Again, we don't know the circumstances of Saix's status as a vessel; I'll get into this next. All we know is that Xemnas kept quiet; that doesn't mean he didn't do anything about it.Like I said, Saix may have actually wanted to have been part of both Orgs. As for why, I think he just wanted power. Desire for power has been an important motive that's been used and abused before with a few other characters, so this wouldn't be coming out of nowhere.He would want to overthrow, and not ditch, the Org for power.He would work with Xemnas towards the KH of Peoples' Heart for power.He would willingly become a SoD for power.And the whole heart thing could be a matter of him having conflict over what he really wants.

Which changes in Apprentice Xehanort are you talking about exactly? Apprentice Xehanort and Terranort are the same guy. Once Master Xehanort took over Terra's body he changed right away. Or are you talking about him changing into old man Xehanort or something? I don't understand which change you are talking about. 

[Gogo 11]

Which changes in Apprentice Xehanort are you talking about exactly? Apprentice Xehanort and Terranort are the same guy. Once Master Xehanort took over Terra's body he changed right away. Or are you talking about him changing into old man Xehanort or something? I don't understand which change you are talking about.

Terranort was the form that resembled Terra more. Apprentice Xehanort was the form with longer hair and brown eyes. The last confirmed time we've seen Terranort affect his heart was the attempted heart extraction of Terra's heart; he still looked the same, a short amount of time passed, and then he looks like AX.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

 

It's not a very relatable example, but you're not seeing what that example is trying to prove; the series makes an effort to make that distinction I said earlier, under the right circumstances. And honestly, it's a stretch to consider the potential time between the RG story and the Keyblade Graveyard story as "short enough to assume the effects were immediate."

Grasping for straws

 

Point is that shit happens, and Heartless escape. Furthermore, why can't they have been attacked by Heartless after the apprentices' departure/Heartless invasion? Or if they were experimented on, why couldn't they have just been attacked by/turned into Heartless, and He wanted to overthrow Xemnas. But, that wouldn't necessarily mean that he wouldn't be interested in what Xemnas had to offer. Otherwise, why stick around for so long, even after he abandoned that dream?A Xehanort heart clearly didn't reflect what his true personality would have been; he could've just wanted to feel like himself again.

Speculation on my end, but believeable, no?

Grasping for straws and on top of that completely not even backed up by anything they have deliberately shown us and told us . Once again , if you are going to throw out theories better back it up with reasons or evidence to support why its  possible or you just look like you are just making shit up just to make shit up .Nomura also clearly states that MX's heart takes over a persons heart till they literally become him and then he will completely control him . 

 

That's what I've been trying to say. You can't use the fact of him staying after Axel's departure as support for the idea of him being controlled (or fear of) because he may have just stayed out of actual, genuine interest  Except once again thats not even what a damn said . I said he would have little choice if he even had a small chance of getting a heart back so of course he would still stay. I mentioned Nort controlling him in DDD and Ive specified this many times . Do you not read my posts ?

YX said that they were considering Roxas as a potential vessel (Xion could be blamed on memory loss). DDD's conception is one thing, but do you really think that Nomura conceived the basis for Xehanortification just then? Wouldn't it make sense for it to have been an idea in the making?

 

They didn't clarify that they wanted a "vessel" out of Sora's power for KH. Given the way the plot developed, that's pretty important ow.

 

If you had seen all the cutscenes before and after and the  entire freaking game yes they sure as heck did . Don't argue what was meant in a scene in a game you've not played and actually have full knowledge of and then have the nerve to tell others what the game was showing us.I cannot take you seriously when you do that.

hat's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that "treachery" is canonically a reason for a failed vessel. Even if the audience considers Saix a traitor, that does not mean that he's a traitor by the series' standards. Take it up with the writer.

 

Not only does the audience consider Saix a trader ,Nomura does too and and he's the writer . Thx and come again . Quit grasping for more straws. All of your posts are just grasping with no evidence to back up why its possible except for you to say " this is possible bc I said so " LOL