Organization XIII=Karma Houdinis?

[Dracozombie 4,554]

Karma Houdini: "A villain who gets off scot-free."-TV Tropes

Organization XIII: a group of villains who, due to their nature of (supposedly) being heartless sociopaths, enable them to resort to and not feel sorry for doing heartless, sociopathic actions for their goals.  It's precisely because of these villainous actions that Sora defeats/kills them and are ultimately rewarded a complete existence--what most of the members wanted to begin with.

 

Seriously, I can't be the only one who thinks the non-Roxas and Xion Org members should answer to what they've done.  Granted, there wasn't enough time to get into any of their heads, and it wasn't important for DDD's plot to see it, but I want to see it eventually.  Every Nobody who's not named Roxas, Xion, or Namine has done some pretty shitty things, in CoM, KH2, and Days--even BBS, if they're the ones responsible for all the Heartless.  You'd better face facts, Org fangirls; take off the fangirling goggles glued to your heads and take an objective look at everything they've done.  All of them.  Even the nice ones like Demyx and Luxord have intentionally committed crimes knowing innocents would be hurt from their actions.  Noble as their goals were, their actions were what made them villains, but people seem to forget that and decry Sora in the process.  Sora only killed them because they were villains hurting him and others and they needed to be stopped; the Org members killed each other to further their own personal agenda.

 

Even Lea, one of the two characters in KH shown to have actually earned his keyblade, has a lot to answer for as Axel.  I'm mainly speaking from CoM, how he willfully and gleefully betrays and kills the Org members at Castle Oblivion.  He was under orders from Saix and Xemnas to kill the suspected traitors, sure, but he was way too casual while he did.  He even enjoyed himself while helping Namine escape and killing Vexen.  Oh dear lord, look at how he killed Vexen.  Look at that smirk.  Is that the face of someone who didn't want to to it, as he tells Saix in Days?  Hell, no.  That is the face who knows he's going to commit murder and will enjoy it despite his victim begging for his life.  And people are decrying Sora for killing them?

 

Maybe Lea thought about his actions while he was training for his keyblade, but it's not shown in DDD because I guess they couldn't find a way to fit it in and/or it wasn't all that important.  In any case, I'd like to see some consequences for his actions, even a little introspection like, "Y'know what, Lea?  What you did back there?  Not cool, man."  And depending on what the other members will be doing, I'd like to see it in them as well, either regret, atonement, and/or paying for their crimes.  Lea may have earned a keyblade but he's not a good guy.  He only joined the heroes to keep his promise to Roxas and Xion, and there's no indication he gives two craps about their cause outside of how it benefits him personally.  I can buy Riku's transition to a good guy because he was genuinely sorry and worked hard to make up for his actions.  Lea still has much to account for, as do the other revived Org members.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Karma Houdini: "A villain who gets off scot-free."-TV Tropes

Organization XIII: a group of villains who, due to their nature of (supposedly) being heartless sociopaths, enable them to resort to and not feel sorry for doing heartless, sociopathic actions for their goals.  It's precisely because of these villainous actions that Sora defeats/kills them and are ultimately rewarded a complete existence--what most of the members wanted to begin with.

 

Seriously, I can't be the only one who thinks the non-Roxas and Xion Org members should answer to what they've done.  Granted, there wasn't enough time to get into any of their heads, and it wasn't important for DDD's plot to see it, but I want to see it eventually.  Every Nobody who's not named Roxas, Xion, or Namine has done some pretty shitty things, in CoM, KH2, and Days--even BBS, if they're the ones responsible for all the Heartless.  You'd better face facts, Org fangirls; take off the fangirling goggles glued to your heads and take an objective look at everything they've done.  All of them.  Even the nice ones like Demyx and Luxord have intentionally committed crimes knowing innocents would be hurt from their actions.  Noble as their goals were, their actions were what made them villains, but people seem to forget that and decry Sora in the process.  Sora only killed them because they were villains hurting him and others and they needed to be stopped; the Org members killed each other to further their own personal agenda.

 

Even Lea, one of the two characters in KH shown to have actually earned his keyblade, has a lot to answer for as Axel.  I'm mainly speaking from CoM, how he willfully and gleefully betrays and kills the Org members at Castle Oblivion.  He was under orders from Saix and Xemnas to kill the suspected traitors, sure, but he was way too casual while he did.  He even enjoyed himself while helping Namine escape and killing Vexen.  Oh dear lord, look at how he killed Vexen.  Look at that smirk.  Is that the face of someone who didn't want to to it, as he tells Saix in Days?  Hell, no.  That is the face who knows he's going to commit murder and will enjoy it despite his victim begging for his life.  And people are decrying Sora for killing them?

 

Maybe Lea thought about his actions while he was training for his keyblade, but it's not shown in DDD because I guess they couldn't find a way to fit it in and/or it wasn't all that important.  In any case, I'd like to see some consequences for his actions, even a little introspection like, "Y'know what, Lea?  What you did back there?  Not cool, man."  And depending on what the other members will be doing, I'd like to see it in them as well, either regret, atonement, and/or paying for their crimes.  Lea may have earned a keyblade but he's not a good guy.  He only joined the heroes to keep his promise to Roxas and Xion, and there's no indication he gives two craps about their cause outside of how it benefits him personally.  I can buy Riku's transition to a good guy because he was genuinely sorry and worked hard to make up for his actions.  Lea still has much to account for, as do the other revived Org members.

 

The part in bold is actually a lot of assuming. You don't know if he's only just helping bc it benefits him .He now knows Mx's plan which could cause basically an apocalypse . He knows the org members were used and tricked to become vessels especially his former childhood best friend.He's seen plenty of destruction of people he cares about. He's also one of the most emotionally tortured characters in constant turmoil. We see this a lot in Days and in KH2.. He wanted to stop Xemnas with Saix to begin with bc they both knew Xemnas was being deceptive somehow. You cannot assume his full intentions in DDD....In CoM he was the very epitomy of a nobody doing sociopathic actions bc he had barely begun to grow a heart. As time progressed and he grew a new heart you can see his internal struggle..Even in CoM he deliberately saved Sora which he admits in game. Also when you read the secret reports in Days you can actually see how he literally changes emotionally and how he struggles .That's why he stated regret for some of the things he did in the first place not to mention later apologizing to Sora for Kairi.. He sacrificed his life in atonement and if it wasn't for Lea Sora would've been "norted ". By this point he most definitely is a good guy and has probably had one of the most developed character in the series. With your logic Riku would still be considered a bad guy bc he hasn't really paid either but yet we all know he is a good guy ..Look at what Riku is responsible for when he fell to darkness in KH1. He has yet to go back to all those worlds where he caused damage and make personal ammends. Yet he was redeemable.. Basically actions speak louder than words. We see by Riku's and Lea's actions that they are trying to redeem their past transgressions, even if it's not said word for word.

 

 

As for the organization members, yes they were most definitely sociopathes with no moral compass. They did horrible things .One of the things I loved about Axel/Lea 's character is that you see him transform from entertaining asshole to redeemable ally and we all got to watch this happen over time. As for the other org members it would be very interesting to see how they act now and what they do .

Edited February 24, 2013 by Flaming Lea

[Dave 5,715]

In regards to Lea, I think that there is some level of atonement already in his character, if you look at how he's developed. In CoM, he's definitely the most selfish and aloof character in the game, running on his own schedule and not caring overmuch about the well being of others. But we see in Days that he starts to actually develop something resembling feelings for his fellow man, slowly and gradually enough for it to be believable that a guy who's essentially a hitman could start to be thinking about someone other than himself. Then, when he's given the orders to do away with Xion and Roxas, he can't bring himself to do it: this is quite the gear change from the man who could kill Vexen and Zexion without so much as a second thought. Even when the two of them are, for all intents and purposes, dead, Axel still can't revert back entirely to his old self, indicating that the change he has undergone has been strong enough to be permanent. Later on, he tries to be something of the jerk he once was (kidnapping Kairi, anyone?), but his motivations are ones based around his long gone friends, and he shows regret. Finally, in the ultimate act of redemption, he kills himself in order to save Sora, who's not only the reason that Roxas is no longer around, but also the person who Axel was supposed to be "taking care of" back in CoM. His character has a definite rise and fall in his quest to turn himself around, and even if he never explicitly apologizes, I think it's insinuated through his actions that he expresses regret for his past.

 

As for the rest of the Organization: totally. I mean, am I supposed to be happy that Ienzo is back in one piece? He's the guy who prodded Ansem to investigate the Heartless, and in CoM, tormented Riku's mind. Dylan messed with the Beast and Belle in terrible fashion, hitting them where it hurt the most. All the others have various crimes which they've never had to pay for, or even show that they're sorry for.

[Dracozombie 4,554]

Haha, maybe I took the piss out of Lea too much to spite the fangirls willing to overlook everything he did because he's so cool and sexy and sweet to Roxas and Xion.  I certainly can't deny how much he's changed, which is why I mainly spoke regarding his actions in CoM.  Still, don't you think there's still kinda sorta a bit of a selfish slant to his motives?  He's willing to fight Xehanort and the Organization not because he thinks it's the right thing to do (though you got a point, that was probably assumption on my part), but because he'll be screwed if he doesn't--the fact the it'll happen to the rest of the world is incidental.  Oh well, I think I'm just too used to Axel/Lea's Draco in Leather Pants treatment that I wish more of his fans acknowledged that at one point, he was an unapologetic bad guy.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Haha, maybe I took the piss out of Lea too much to spite the fangirls willing to overlook everything he did because he's so cool and sexy and sweet to Roxas and Xion.  I certainly can't deny how much he's changed, which is why I mainly spoke regarding his actions in CoM.  Still, don't you think there's still kinda sorta a bit of a selfish slant to his motives?  He's willing to fight Xehanort and the Organization not because he thinks it's the right thing to do (though you got a point, that was probably assumption on my part), but because he'll be screwed if he doesn't--the fact the it'll happen to the rest of the world is incidental.  Oh well, I think I'm just too used to Axel/Lea's Draco in Leather Pants treatment that I wish more of his fans acknowledged that at one point, he was an unapologetic bad guy.

 

Well, if the world would be firetrucked that would include all who he cares about - people other than himself . So that in itself isn't selfish. You could argue self preservation is, but does anybody really  want to die ? At least not without a fight ? That's how i view it anyways                

[Dave 5,715]

Still, don't you think there's still kinda sorta a bit of a selfish slant to his motives?  He's willing to fight Xehanort and the Organization not because he thinks it's the right thing to do (though you got a point, that was probably assumption on my part), but because he'll be screwed if he doesn't--the fact the it'll happen to the rest of the world is incidental. 

 

Totally. That's kind of one of the reasons I like him. His motivations are understandable, there are things that he wants that he's willing to work for, he has character traits that can actually be questioned rather than just blindly accepted. The fact that he's still on the fence in terms of where he stands in the good/evil thing is what makes him interesting. He probably has the most angles to his character, because he's the one with the most metaphorical blood on his hands, and his selfishness makes it more questionable as to what he'll do next.

 

The fact that he isn't 100% clean is a good thing in story telling perspective. (Personally, I'm hoping that he's secretly plotting to screw over any attempts to save Ven in hopes of saving Roxas instead. Wouldn't that make for great drama?)

[Dracozombie 4,554]

Totally. That's kind of one of the reasons I like him. His motivations are understandable, there are things that he wants that he's willing to work for, he has character traits that can actually be questioned rather than just blindly accepted. The fact that he's still on the fence in terms of where he stands in the good/evil thing is what makes him interesting. He probably has the most angles to his character, because he's the one with the most metaphorical blood on his hands, and his selfishness makes it more questionable as to what he'll do next.

 

The fact that he isn't 100% clean is a good thing in story telling perspective. (Personally, I'm hoping that he's secretly plotting to screw over any attempts to save Ven in hopes of saving Roxas instead. Wouldn't that make for great drama?)

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he screwed someone else over for the sake of Roxas and Xion.  Given Roxas's less-than-pleasant reaction to the less-than-pleasant side Axel has to him (like him lying and withholding important information from them), it'd be interesting to see how Roxas would react if he found out Axel did something awful to someone else for their sake.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

I wouldn't be surprised if he screwed someone else over for the sake of Roxas and Xion.  Given Roxas's less-than-pleasant reaction to the less-than-pleasant side Axel has to him (like him lying and withholding important information from them), it'd be interesting to see how Roxas would react if he found out Axel did something awful to someone else for their sake.

 

 

That remains to be seen since Lea has his complete heart now and i'm sure that would affect the manner in which he handles things..He's not the exact same person he was and prolly also has learned from mistakes as well..Also, Xion lied and withheld important info and Roxas acted like she could do no wrong. Just sayin'

Edited February 24, 2013 by Flaming Lea

[Ptolema 404]

I agree with that. Even Axel committed many crimes. They may have lacked a Heart, but they could think. They chose to do everything they did, whether it was because they wanted to have a Heart, or because they desired power. They aren't held gullible for what they did. They have lots of blinded fan girls who refuse to admit it. They all had their positive and negative traits, but in the end they mostly rooted for the negative ones. Unable to realize they were being used, they just obeyed Xemnas. I pity them, but they're still guilty.

[Dracozombie 4,554]

That remains to be seen since Lea has his heart now and i'm sure that would affect the manner in which he handles things..He's not the exact same person he was and prolly also has learned from mistakes as well..Also, Xion lied and withheld important info and Roxas acted like she could do no wrong. Just sayin'

 

Yeah, maybe.  Well, Xion and Axel's cases were different.  It seemed like Xion was too scared and unsure of her situation and so she'd rather stay away instead of burdening them.  Axel did the same to keep Roxas and Xion to himself, with no regards to what would happen to Sora, who in the grand scheme of things is more important than those two--which they both realized eventually, and willingly went back.  Same actions, different motives.  Besides, Xion only threatened Roxas with the keyblade to keep him away, since he knew she didn't want to come back; Axel outright attacked her and brought her back by force, against her will.  That's why Roxas got pissed at him, because he thought Axel could've resorted to less forceful methods (says so in their dialogue and in his journal entry for the day).

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Yeah, maybe.  Well, Xion and Axel's cases were different.  It seemed like Xion was too scared and unsure of her situation and so she'd rather stay away instead of burdening them.  Axel did the same to keep Roxas and Xion to himself, with no regards to what would happen to Sora, who in the grand scheme of things is more important than those two--which they both realized eventually, and willingly went back.  Same actions, different motives.  Besides, Xion only threatened Roxas with the keyblade to keep him away, since he knew she didn't want to come back; Axel outright attacked her and brought her back by force, against her will.  That's why Roxas got pissed at him, because he thought Axel could've resorted to less forceful methods (says so in their dialogue and in his journal entry for the day).

 

 

They both witheld information and lied . They were both wrong .They both tried to use force on their friends .  (She gave Axel no choice btw )They were both wrong but both thought it's what they HAD to do . Xion for her reasons and Axel for his ( he knew if they didn't go back it was a death sentence and also didn't want to lose them ).You cannot validate Xion's actions but say Axel was the only one in the wrong when they both clearly were wrong in how they handled things..None of the three handled the situation right and they let their emotions cloud their better judgement..

[Dracozombie 4,554]

They both witheld information and lied . They were both wrong .They both tried to use force on their friends .  (She gave Axel no choice btw )They were both wrong but both thought it's what they HAD to do . Xion for her reasons and Axel for his ( he knew if they didn't go back it was a death sentence and also didn't want to lose them ).You cannot validate Xion's actions but say Axel was the only one in the wrong when they both clearly were wrong in how they handled things..None of the three handled the situation right and they let their emotions cloud their better judgement..

 

Very true, but Axel still has thrice the baggage Xion does.  Aside from that case of poor decision-making, it's hard to compare Axel and Xion all things considered.  And I was mainly validating Xion but not Axel to annoy some of the less-smart Axel fangirls out there who might be reading this. =P

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Very true, but Axel still has thrice the baggage Xion does.  Aside from that case of poor decision-making, it's hard to compare Axel and Xion all things considered.  And I was mainly validating Xion but not Axel to annoy some of the less-smart Axel fangirls out there who might be reading this. =P

 

Axel has a lot of baggage for sure but it just adds to his overall character developement imo. I love complicated characters with many sides to them .It makes them seem more human and  "real "..