KHCoM The Castle Oblivion Plan and Namine

[deathrebirthsenshi 279]

So, I was just randomly laying in bed, staring at the ceiling, trying to fall asleep when something hit me. I went to look at the secret reports for confirmation.

 

In Chain of Memories, Namine complains about being alone for "so long." Well. In the secret reports, on Day 24 Zexion mentioned that Marluxia had succeeded in luring Sora to Castle Oblivion.

 

Day 24.

 

By the time Sora gets there, Namine had only existed for 24 days. About 3 weeks. Now, okay, sure, this may be a long time to be alone...but not all like Namine was making it out to be. And she's apparently much higher functioning than Roxas to even have grasp of the concept of "alone" and to be able to feel things like "loneliness" and "guilt" in just 24 short days of existence. That's an awfully short amount of time for Namine to sprout a heart compared to Roxas and Xion's almost year (granted, though, they definately had hearts way before that).

 

And also, I wondered: did the organization really figure out Namine's power, and Marluxia and Larxene come up with a plan to use it, in just 3 weeks? Could there be more to the things that went on in Castle Oblivion? More about Namine? The Organization did discuss that they used C.O. to do experiments on memory...

 

I don't know. Am I over reacting? Over reaching? Possibly. My brain is sort of fried right now...

[Ruran 481]

No, I don't think you're over reaching, even by KH standards Namine is a huge enigma. Even without the confirmation of how long exactly Namine had been in CO before Sora and co. arrived I new she couldn't have been there that long because CoM doesn't start that long after KH1 so that's something that's always bugged me. Also how intelligent Namine was in comparison to someone like Roxas even though she should have been like him, memory-less and zombie like. That does make me wonder what sort of experiments they had conducted since they never really went further into exploitation than saying they were "memory experiments" but we're never told what that means. Then Days went and teased Namine some more by reveling that Axel found Vexen's notes reviling the "secrets behind Namine" but then that plot point hasn't been addressed any more. It's even been subtly hinted at that Namine is an entirely new breed of being. hopefully it's something they get more into in the future and isn't left forgotten, but yeah, as it stands there're a lot of holes in Namine's backstory.

[SingingCookie 5]

I think part of the reason she seems to be so different from Roxas is because she and him are not the same in terms of their beings. And I think stems from two reasons. One: She is the "Nobody"--or whatever she really is--of Kairi, a Princess of Heart who's devoid of darkness in her heart. And two: She has control over the memories of Sora and those connected to him. The second one is probably more of the reason though.

 

Unlike Roxas, who was born with no memories and thus doesn't know how to act, Naminè has nothing but​ memories, along with the ability to tamper with them. But unlike Nobodies, she recognizes that they're not hers. Like Axel always refers to "our memories" like he considers them a part of him. Naminè...doesn't. She's never even considered them hers. They're always Sora's or Roxas' or Riku's or Kairi's and so on. So she understands emotions, probably better than the Organization. That could have been the basis for her recognizing things like loneliness so quickly. Because she knows what they've felt like. But because it's her first time really feeling it, she's over-dramatic and says it seems like it's been so long. Because she's never been lonely, but she knows it's not a feeling she's supposed to enjoy.

Edited October 20, 2012 by SingingCookie

[deathrebirthsenshi 279]

No, I don't think you're over reaching, even by KH standards Namine is a huge enigma. Even without the confirmation of how long exactly Namine had been in CO before Sora and co. arrived I new she couldn't have been there that long because CoM doesn't start that long after KH1 so that's something that's always bugged me. Also how intelligent Namine was in comparison to someone like Roxas even though she should have been like him, memory-less and zombie like. That does make me wonder what sort of experiments they had conducted since they never really went further into exploitation than saying they were "memory experiments" but we're never told what that means. Then Days went and teased Namine some more by reveling that Axel found Vexen's notes reviling the "secrets behind Namine" but then that plot point hasn't been addressed any more. It's even been subtly hinted at that Namine is an entirely new breed of being. hopefully it's something they get more into in the future and isn't left forgotten, but yeah, as it stands there're a lot of holes in Namine's backstory.

 

Yeah, at first when they noted the whole "nobodies grow hearts" thing, I kind of thought, "well, that's all there is to say about that." But...ugh, Nomura logic, there are just so many more mysteries, and none solved. I mean, everyone totally thought we'd learn where Terra is, and that didn't remotely happen...

But yeah, I actually thought 24 days was pretty generous for the amount of time between when Sora stabbed himself and when he appeared at Castle Oblivion. I know there are a lot of peculiarities about her because she's the nobody of a princess of heart, and its hard to say what she even is...I just wonder if its ever something that will be expanded on, or something we're just supposed to accept

I think part of the reason she seems to be so different from Roxas is because she and him are not the same in terms of their beings. And I think stems from two reasons. One: She is the "Nobody"--or whatever she really is--of Kairi, a Princess of Heart who's devoid of darkness in her heart. And two: She has control over the memories of Sora and those connected to him. The second one is probably more of the reason though.

 

Hm, that's something I considered before but conveniently forgot...while I don't think she had her own memories of Kairi, just through looking at all of Sora's and Riku's memories and tampering with them probably had a large impact on her character, seeing the way things were supposed to be like. She probably just initially wanted to take the place of Kairi, naturally feeling like she should be with Sora...only really understanding the implications of her actions later...huh. That makes sense. Its sort of a similar thing that happened to Xion basically.

[AntonioKHT 449]

Well, she existed a little longer than that... She was created when Sora stabbed himself with The Keyblade to Unlock People's Hearts or whatever it's name is. Since KH doesn not have a clear idea of time (except in the Days game) a long time could have passed, couldn't it?

I don't remeber that well, but I don't think we play as Roxas from his day of birth do we? Forgive my ignorance, I haven't played Days in a while...

[SingingCookie 5]

Well, she existed a little longer than that... She was created when Sora stabbed himself with The Keyblade to Unlock People's Hearts or whatever it's name is. Since KH doesn not have a clear idea of time (except in the Days game) a long time could have passed, couldn't it?

I don't remeber that well, but I don't think we play as Roxas from his day of birth do we? Forgive my ignorance, I haven't played Days in a while...

 

I don't think she did actually. Because, if you remember, the Secret Ansem Reports in Kingdom Hearts 2 mention that Roxas and Naminé were both born when Sora stabbed himself with the The Keyblade of People's Hearts. Which means that if Roxas had been born twenty-four days before everything went down at Castle Oblivion, Naminé had too.

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

Actually, my objection is different. If Namine doesn't have memories of Sora/Kairi, then she shouldn't know about other people. As in there existence.

So how can she know she felt lonely, if she didn't have any way of knowing if other people existed?

[SingingCookie 5]

Actually, my objection is different. If Namine doesn't have memories of Sora/Kairi, then she shouldn't know about other people. As in there existence.

So how can she know she felt lonely, if she didn't have any way of knowing if other people existed?

 

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Naminé does have memories of Sora and possibly Kairi because she knows about her powers over Sora's memories and those connected to him. In order to know about her power and how to use it, she would have to know who Sora is and, therefore, she would have his memories. She's said herself that she's "...a witch with power over Sora's memories and those around him." Meaning she can only manipulate the memories of people Sora has met or has a tie to his heart (Ventus).

 

But from what I'm gathering (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), you're saying she would be just like Roxas when he first appeared and not understand anything because of an utter lack of memories.

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

 

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Naminé does have memories of Sora and possibly Kairi because she knows about her powers over Sora's memories and those connected to him. In order to know about her power and how to use it, she would have to know who Sora is and, therefore, she would have his memories. She's said herself that she's "...a witch with power over Sora's memories and those around him." Meaning she can only manipulate the memories of people Sora has met or has a tie to his heart (Ventus).

 

But from what I'm gathering (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), you're saying she would be just like Roxas when he first appeared and not understand anything because of an utter lack of memories.

 

No, you are completely right, permit me to explain.

Namine has power over Sora's memories, and those around him. We agree on that, but I don't assume that she is capable of sharing his memories, she can mold them, manipulate, and alter them however she sees fit. But she doesn't have them. There isn't a very good analogy for this, so I'm going to go with the best I can. Suppose Sora's memories were paintings, and his mind is the canvas. Namine can use the paint already there, and the material already there to change the image. But the paint isn't hers, it's Sora's. She knows she can change the memories, but in the same way X-Men often find out they can, it just happens, often in a period of stress. In Namine's loneliness she called out, and her call reached Sora, leading him to Castle Oblivion.

[Caity 3,946]

I hold no answers for most, but I'd assume that Namines quick development of a heart is due to her being a special nobody, the nobody of a princess of pure heart, pure light. Judging by the difference in birth between her and other nobodies (where there was a shroud of darkness in the original being) wouldn't it be likely for that to be a reason why she could feel emotions more quickly?

 

Actually, my objection is different. If Namine doesn't have memories of Sora/Kairi, then she shouldn't know about other people. As in there existence.

So how can she know she felt lonely, if she didn't have any way of knowing if other people existed?

 

I thought Nobodies could remember some of their past self's memories, and in KHCOM and KH2 used those memories to deceive Sora pretending they have emotions. I'm pretty sure it was in a report, cutscene or interview somewhere that they can remember their past (i'll try find it later). Namines past self would be Kairi and she could remember/be able to recall Kairi's feelings for Sora.

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

I hold no answers for most, but I'd assume that Namines quick development of a heart is due to her being a special nobody, the nobody of a princess of pure heart, pure light. Judging by the difference in birth between her and other nobodies (where there was a shroud of darkness in the original being) wouldn't it be likely for that to be a reason why she could feel emotions more quickly?

 

 

I thought Nobodies could remember some of their past self's memories, and in KHCOM and KH2 used those memories to deceive Sora pretending they have emotions. I'm pretty sure it was in a report, cutscene or interview somewhere that they can remember their past (i'll try find it later). Namines past self would be Kairi and she could remember/be able to recall Kairi's feelings for Sora.

 

Most Nobodies do remember their pasts, Axel says this in Days somewhere. But Roxas and Namine are special Nobodies, and since Roxas doesn't remeber his pastit follows that Namine may not remember hers. She doesn't state it directly, but I always assumed she just didn't remember her past. If she did I think she would have been more Xikari and less Namine.

[Ruran 481]

I hold no answers for most, but I'd assume that Namines quick development of a heart is due to her being a special nobody, the nobody of a princess of pure heart, pure light. Judging by the difference in birth between her and other nobodies (where there was a shroud of darkness in the original being) wouldn't it be likely for that to be a reason why she could feel emotions more quickly?

 

 

I thought Nobodies could remember some of their past self's memories, and in KHCOM and KH2 used those memories to deceive Sora pretending they have emotions. I'm pretty sure it was in a report, cutscene or interview somewhere that they can remember their past (i'll try find it later). Namines past self would be Kairi and she could remember/be able to recall Kairi's feelings for Sora.

 

'cept Namine's birth was very different. Unlike normal Nobodies who, after a Heartless is created the memories flow into the body, Namine was born directly from Sora who retained his memories as well as Kairi because she never turned into a Heartless. If Namine received any scraps of memory from Kairi and/or Sora it hasn't been led on to at all. Though I think the possibility that Namine has some darkness in her is an interesting concept.

[AntonioKHT 449]

 

I don't think she did actually. Because, if you remember, the Secret Ansem Reports in Kingdom Hearts 2 mention that Roxas and Naminé were both born when Sora stabbed himself with the The Keyblade of People's Hearts. Which means that if Roxas had been born twenty-four days before everything went down at Castle Oblivion, Naminé had too.

 

Yeah I think you're right, since the day he was born he's been with the Organization, so it doesn't matter what is the counter for... It's the same thing

[deathrebirthsenshi 279]

'cept Namine's birth was very different. Unlike normal Nobodies who, after a Heartless is created the memories flow into the body, Namine was born directly from Sora who retained his memories as well as Kairi because she never turned into a Heartless. If Namine received any scraps of memory from Kairi and/or Sora it hasn't been led on to at all. Though I think the possibility that Namine has some darkness in her is an interesting concept.

 

"In other words, both the Nobody called Naminé and the Heartless—proof of a lost heart—are extremely unstable beings who lack the bodies needed to produce a Nobody. Therefore, they also lack Kairi's memories."

 

From the Ansem Reports, confirms Namine was born without memories...but I think that's yet another interesting thing, considering how Roxas and Namine were born. There's so many weird situations surrounding them; first of all, Sora didn't become a heartless by giving in to darkness, he willingly sacrificed himself. Second of all, Roxas and Namine were both born from the heart unlocker--technically, you could see it as Roxas and Namine being born from the Princesses of Heart, particularly in the case of Roxas. I wonder if Namine would even have been born if Sora had been turned into a heartless another way...

 

Thinking of Roxas being born of the Princesses of heart makes me wonder about his status as a guardian of light...hm...and there's also the fact that Namine seemed to be just what the people of Kingdom Hearts needed: Someone with powers over memory to remind everyone about Terra, Aqua, and Ventus, 3 more keyblade wielders that will most likely be absolutely necessary for the final battle against Xehanort. Ah, destiny theories...and, probably, if Xion and Roxas hadn't existed, moving so many of Sora's memories out of Sora, Namine might not have gotten down to that deeper level where Ven and his memories sleep.

 

Why can't I study this for college. We should have a class dedicated to deep videogames like these.

[MyDixieRect 2,061]

If I had to guess Ventus' heart was in Sora and hadn't fully recovered, so when Roxas was born with essentially a broken heart inside him he couldn't function as well unlike Namine and presumably the other Nobodies who functioned just fine since the hearts they have/once had aren't broken, as such Namine could draw from her experiences as Kairi and feel what she felt.