KHBbS Ways Xehanort's plan could have unraveled, part 1: Birth by Sleep

[hatok 6,413]

1- Eraqus wins the fight agaisnt Xehanort

2- The Neo Shadows steal Ventus' heart

3- Xehanort fails to create Vanitas

4- Eraqus doesn't trust Xehanort enough to let him preside over the MoM test

5- Eraqus deduces that Xehanort is behind Terra's darkness

6- Eraqus passes Terra anyways

7- Eraqus fails Aqua

8- Ventus tells Eraqus about Vanitas

9- Ventus confides in Terra and decides not to go after him

10- Aqua teams up with Terra upon meeting him

11- Aqua takes Ventus home upon meeting him

12- Terra isn't fooled into thinking he stole a heart

13- Aqua doesn't lie and say Terra has done bad things despite having no proof

14- The three team up upon meeting at Radiant Garden

15- Terra figures out that Braig's plan makes no sense

16- Terra chooses to use a different attack than darkness to free Xehanort

17- Aqua captures Vanitas upon defeating him

18- Terra hadn't caused Riku to get the keyblade

19- Aqua hadn't protected Kairi

20- Terra had gone after Ventus instead of listening to Xehanort and going to the Badlands

21- Eraqus hadn't decided to kill Ventus

22- Eraqus had decided to talk to Terra

23- Terra had chosen not to fight Eraqus

24- Xehanort had failed to kill Eraqus

25- If any of the three hadn't gone to the keyblade graveyard

26- If any of the three had died

27- If Yen Side gave good advice

28- If Terra had resisted being possessed

29- If Ventus hadn't been frozen

30- If Braig had been killed, or been otherwise unable to possess

31- Ventus hadn't established a connection with Sora

32- Aqua hadn't chosen to save Terra-Xehanort

33- Aqua hadn't chosen to store ventus in Castle Oblivion

34- Xehanort had successfully created the X-Blade

 

And the scary part is I'm probably missing a lot more

Edited October 17, 2012 by hatok

[Gamerazor247 877]

: O Well shet...

[esumsoraroxas 48]

You proved one theory with many things. That's awesome

[Rob 5,571]

35- Terra dodges Xehanort's heart instead of just standing there putting on armor.

[Queen Tery 4,591]

36. Sora just goes to dinner when his firetrucking mother called him.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Yeah the biggest downfall In BBS was the broken communication/ lack of communication in TAV ..Teaming up together wouldve really made a difference in the outcome.

[Dave 5,715]

The big one for me is: what if Terra just sort of... gets over it? Or at any point demonstrates that his frontal lobe isn't just for show and actually questions what is going on and who he should trust more: the man who has raised him all his life, or the creepy old guy who is only just paying attention to him? For if Terra is supposed to deem Eraquas as a father figure, why isn't he treating or regarding him as such?

 

Or, if Vanitas is an agent of chaos, what if he stops sticking to the plan and flat out kills Ven in a fit of rage?

 

Or if Eraquas doesn't sit in exactly the same spot for the entire game an attempts to do something proactive?

 

Or if Eraquas puts two and two together and realizes that the attack of darkness on the balls of light right at the begining, which was obviously not intended, might have been caused by the man who, in years past, flat out said that he had no problems using darkness? Or, heck, if Eraquas thought anything was amiss at all when the test went haywire when there are only a handful of people present in the room, two of whom are powerful enough to do so, and that one of those two people are him?

 

Long story short: Xehanort relies heavily on the writesr making everyone dumber than a post.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Dave

[Ruran 481]

This embodies the main problem I had with BbS: the reason that the plot runs at all is because it relies on the characters being stupid and "chance". This could have been a much smarter and tense game if some of the things on the list did happen and Xehanort manages to get around them rather than everything falling into place with little effort because the characters are dumb.

 

What if Aqua had captured Vanitas? Would she take him to Eraqus for more questioning and have him captive? How would Xehanort get him out or how would Vanitas get himself and what problems could it have brought?

 

What if Terra fled with Ven after Eraqus tried to destroy him? In his rage, would Eraqus have tried to follow them, and what would have happened if he did? How would Xehanort take this to his advantage?

 

What if Aqua grabbed Ven by the ear and dragged him home like she should have? How would Xehanort handle that?

 

Or what if Aqua didn't just so happen to be walking along when she saw Kairi in trouble? Despite the red hearing that Vanitas is out for the PoH Xehanort needs them too.

 

I would have liked to see Xehanort go up against characters who did smart things. He would have appeared more clever and more intimidating if it felt like the his opponents were really giving it their all only to find that their trapped in Xehanort's Batman gambit almost anyway they turned.

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

Or, if Vanitas is an agent of chaos, what if he stops sticking to the plan and flat out kills Ven in a fit of rage?

 

He almost did kill Ven remember? In the Badlands of the Keyblade Graveyard? He even said it would be defying his masters orders but he didn't really give a crap. Then Mickey comes and saves Ven.

Batman gambit

Think it's called a "Xanatos Gambit". Although whatever it's called now it should be renamed the "Xehanort Gambit".

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

1- Eraqus wins the fight agaisnt Xehanort

2- The Neo Shadows steal Ventus' heart

3- Xehanort fails to create Vanitas

4- Eraqus doesn't trust Xehanort enough to let him preside over the MoM test

5- Eraqus deduces that Xehanort is behind Terra's darkness

6- Eraqus passes Terra anyways

7- Eraqus fails Aqua

8- Ventus tells Eraqus about Vanitas

9- Ventus confides in Terra and decides not to go after him

10- Aqua teams up with Terra upon meeting him

11- Aqua takes Ventus home upon meeting him

12- Terra isn't fooled into thinking he stole a heart

13- Aqua doesn't lie and say Terra has done bad things despite having no proof

14- The three team up upon meeting at Radiant Garden

15- Terra figures out that Braig's plan makes no sense

16- Terra chooses to use a different attack than darkness to free Xehanort

17- Aqua captures Vanitas upon defeating him

18- Terra hadn't caused Riku to get the keyblade

19- Aqua hadn't protected Kairi

20- Terra had gone after Ventus instead of listening to Xehanort and going to the Badlands

21- Eraqus hadn't decided to kill Ventus

22- Eraqus had decided to talk to Terra

23- Terra had chosen not to fight Eraqus

24- Xehanort had failed to kill Eraqus

25- If any of the three hadn't gone to the keyblade graveyard

26- If any of the three had died

27- If Yen Side gave good advice

28- If Terra had resisted being possessed

29- If Ventus hadn't been frozen

30- If Braig had been killed, or been otherwise unable to possess

31- Ventus hadn't established a connection with Sora

32- Aqua hadn't chosen to save Terra-Xehanort

33- Aqua hadn't chosen to store ventus in Castle Oblivion

34- Xehanort had successfully created the X-Blade

 

And the scary part is I'm probably missing a lot more

 

• Yes, but considering he practically one shot Eraqus I think it's a realistic assessment of power levels
• Then he has a being of pure darkness, who hecould use to merge with someone of pure light. Perhaps he was even going (slowly) about making 13 darknesses, but when he realized he had two pure hearts, he thought it was a shortcut
• How is this a flaw? He knows what his Keyblade can do. One of his/its powers is realizing the darkness in people's hearts, and giving it identity.
• Eraqus is too trusting. I think that's pretty well established, and since Xehanort spent years with himi, I would expect him to know this.
• See above.
• Eraqus believes in complete destruction of darkness, there's no way he would pass Terra after that complete rampage of destruction. *sarcasm*
• Why would he do this? Anyways, the MoM was more of a tool for him to use on Terra, Aqua didn't really figure into his plans that much.
• Vanitas gives Xehanort information about Ventus' mind. He values Terra too much to think rationally.
• See above.
• Um... Best guess, people who use darkness tend to suck at team-ups. Still,it would have brought down his plan, I admit.
• And then he runs away again, and we wasted a cutscene.
• To put it kindly, Terra's dumb. I doubt he's figured it out yet.
• She didn't say he's done bad things, she said she's seen the effects of his actions, and she doesn't think good actions can have bad consequences (she's Terra's apprentice, that mindset makes sense)
• By this point they're on different missions, Terra is after Vanitas and seeks to save Xehanort, Ventus is chasing Terra, and Aqua is after the Unversed and both of them.
• Terra's still dumb. And I doubt he thought it through.
• The encouraging of Terra's darkness is all Xehanort has been doing. And the use of darkness is what allowed him to win. If hedidn't use it he wasn't a worthy vessel.
• Instead of falling to the ground exhausted? Yes, but she didn't have any more energy (except on my replay. Where she pwned him and had full health and barely spent any time)
• Xehanort's plan at the time was only Ventus+Vanitas=X-Blade & Xehanort+Darkness+Terra=New Body! He didn't care about Riku at the time.
• See above only change Riku to Kairi.
• Terra respects Xehanort, and figures talking to his friend is of less importance than talking to the Keyblade Master who he believes to be his single greatest ally.
• Eraqus' character dictates he would do anything to prevent the creation of such a dangerous darkness. Xehanort knows this.
• See above. Add a sense of betrayal.
• I tried that several times. All that happens is angry Eraqus kills you. It's not an option. Eraqus got all Saix on us.
• Terra killed Eraqus. Xehanort used him, but Terra struck the fatal blow. But as for Terra losing to Eraqus, that would have derailed his plans. I personally think he just sees Darkness as stronger than Light.
• Ventus was there to save his friends, Terra was there to get revenge and Aqua DID wreck his plans. So it's the fact that all three showed up that blew up in his face.
• Terra would use Darkness before dying, so Xehanort would win. Ventus would be weakened before dying, so Vanitas could merge and form a X-Blade. If Aqua had died he'd have won.
• Yeah, but Yen Sid likes to be vague and mysterious.
• He did. Lingering Sentiment battle? Extra cutscene? He just didn't win.
• Then Vanitas would fight Ventus WHILE Aqua fought Braig. Not exactly about to wreck his plans.
• His method for X-Blade creation at the time was 1 Darkness + 1 Light, not 13 Darknesses + 7 Lights.
• Xehanort didn't care about Sora at that time
• From the realm of Darkness I presume? Yes this would have derailed his plans, but losing his memories, losing to Aqua, and probably even fighting Aqua probably weren't either.
• Why does he care?
• Um... That's what he wanted. If he had done that he would have won.

Xehanort changes his plan to fit the environment, but his final goal remains the same, to merge with Kingdom Hearts and use it to create a new world with him as a god. He doesn't have a schedule, with everything having to happen in a precise order, rather he manipulates people and plays off their ignorance. Yes, his plan has flaws, but he keeps adjusting it to reach his final goal. That's why it's so crazy, he hasn't laid out a master stratagem he establishes the minimum requirements, and then lets events unfold in such a way that meets a requirement.

[Ruran 481]

He almost did kill Ven remember? In the Badlands of the Keyblade Graveyard? He even said it would be defying his masters orders but he didn't really give a crap. Then Mickey comes and saves Ven.Think it's called a "Xanatos Gambit". Although whatever it's called now it should be renamed the "Xehanort Gambit".

 

There's two, a Xanatos Gambit and a Batman Gambit. Basically, the former is where the someone comes up with the "perfect plan" and has all their bases covered from each angle preventing their opponent from ever winning and the later relies on someone using what they know about their opponent's weaknesses and trying to take advantage of them. The Batman Gambit is what Xehanort uses in BbS, trying to manipulate his enemies through their weaknesses and predicting what they will do because of them, the only problem I have with this is that well...Xehanort's opponent's are all kind of stupid...

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

Xehanort could have got laid like a normal person maybe then he wouldn't have waisted his entire life trying to get inside younger boys.

[replika13 455]

this just made my day and its only 7 in the morning

[LibertaerGER 5]

What if Aqua grabbed Ven by the ear and dragged him home like she should have? How would Xehanort handle that?

Did she really should have? It is not her nature to interfere and beeing oppressive plus he had to fight Vanitas at all cost.

 

What if Terra fled with Ven after Eraqus tried to destroy him? In his rage, would Eraqus have tried to follow them, and what would have happened if he did? How would Xehanort take this to his advantage?

He was possessed with darkness, plus hed didn't know it was Xehanort's doing.

 

 

 

What if Aqua had captured Vanitas? Would she take him to Eraqus for more questioning and have him captive? How would Xehanort get him out or how would Vanitas get himself and what problems could it have brought?

She didn't had the chance + Xehanort had his hands on Ven too.

 

I would have liked to see Xehanort go up against characters who did smart things. He would have appeared more clever and more intimidating if it felt like the his opponents were really giving it their all only to find that their trapped in Xehanort's Batman gambit almost anyway they turned.

This was meant to be a tragedy. This all happend due to a lack of information not stupid behavior. Xehanort's dirty plans could have been revealed by accident but that had destoyed the suspence.

[Ruran 481]

Did she really should have? It is not her nature to interfere and beeing oppressive plus he had to fight Vanitas at all cost.

 

 

 

He was possessed with darkness, plus hed didn't know it was Xehanort's doing.

 

 

 

 

 

She didn't had the chance + Xehanort had his hands on Ven too.

 

 

 

This was meant to be a tragedy. This all happend due to a lack of information not stupid behavior. Xehanort's dirty plans could have been revealed by accident but that had destoyed the suspence.

 

It may or may not be her nature but it's her job. That was her mission in the first place, to bring Ven back home and all things considering, yes, she really had to. Letting Ven run around "because the plot needed him to" is a bad excuse to have Aqua forget her mission to make it convenient for the story.

 

He wasn't possessed, no one made Terra do anything there.

 

That's why it's a "what if" question. Xehanort didn't touch Ven for the majority of BbS.

 

They lacked information because they didn't do much to try and get it. A tragedy isn't marked by lack of information, it's marked by the inevitable happening and the things that happened weren't inevitable which is the point of this topic. Too much happens on MX relying on the other characters to do the worst things possible for things to go his way and I don't buy it. These tragedy isn't tragic.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Ruran

[LibertaerGER 5]

It may or may not be her nature but it's her job.

Her mission was to watch Terra, afaik + the plot doesn't work that way, forcing friends to quit traveling, no way. He would habe been nowhere save if Vanitas still existed. Call it bad excuse or what so ever but friends where more important than a mission. Wasn't it Ven returning to land of departure after Aqua tried to be harsh to him? The plot was driven by the character's weaknesses and Xehanort was looking for them.

 

They lacked information because they didn't do much to try and get it.

Easy to say. There had to be a suspicion first + knowing thing doesn't mean you could chance them.

 

A tragedy isn't marked by lack of information, it's marked by the inevitable happening and the things that happened weren't inevitable which is the point of this topic.

At a point of no return things were inevitable but that's not was a tragedy is all about. Things happend because they can and in the end there aren't much options left.

 

That's why it's a "what if" question. Xehanort didn't touch Ven for the majority of BbS.

Now you know what if.

[Ruran 481]

Her mission was to watch Terra, afaik + the plot doesn't work that way, forcing friends to quit traveling, no way. He would habe been nowhere save if Vanitas still existed. Call it bad excuse or what so ever but friends where more important than a mission. Wasn't it Ven returning to land of departure after Aqua tried to be harsh to him? The plot was driven by the character's weaknesses and Xehanort was looking for them.

 

Easy to say. There had to be a suspicion first + knowing thing doesn't mean you could chance them.

 

 

 

At a point of no return things were inevitable but that's not was a tragedy is all about. Things happend because they can and in the end there aren't much options left.

 

 

 

Now you know what if.

 

And bring Ven home because it's dangerous. That was a mission given to Aqua by ME because it was too dangerous for Ven to be out on his own, both because he's young and because MX and Vanitas are after him. How is letting Ven run around with mad men on the loos looking out for him? Aqua even fought Vanitas, reassuring her that it was too dangerous for Ven, and a few seconds after their first battle is finished Aqua and Ven meet again and she tells him to go home while proceeding to leave him alone. Which of course he didn't do, he went out on his own mission to find new friends. Aqua had no reason to leave Ven alone, the plot just needed her to and it's bad writing.

 

There was a suspicion-mysterious monsters and Vanitas/a boy in a mask popped up at the same time MX disappeared.

 

When was the "point of no returning"? The majority of the time the characters had better options, they just didn't act on them when they could have.

 

...What?

Edited October 18, 2012 by Ruran

[Xail 113]

Ventus could have taken the X-Blade for himself.

[LordOfTheCastle 92]

Xehanort could have gone back in time and told himself everything that was going to unfold and how to plan accordingly.

 

Wait a sec...

[Ruran 481]

MX wrote in his reports that he chose Ven because he "felt they were destined to meet". The only reason MX chose Ven as a student was because he "felt right" *shudders* so he just as easily could have chosen someone else entirely

[Henne 150]

Or if Eraquas doesn't sit in exactly the same spot for the entire game an attempts to do something proactive?

Well, it seemed that in the beginning concept of the game Eraqus was a bit more active. He is seen with Terra, who is protecting Ven, at Radiant Garden. So, he tried something, I guess.

However, as you put it:

 

 

Long story short: Xehanort relies heavily on the writesr making everyone dumber than a post.

 

Eraqus was probably to clever and had to become dumber in order for the plot to work

 

 

Really, I think, it would have been better for the plot/characters if Eraqus did do something and then died.

I can see that he has to protect the LoD but he knows which danger lies within Ventus and still didn't do anything at all, lol.

 

 

Eraqus: Go, my students. Do stuff and oh, if you find Ven, tell him that he has to come back home, while I will drink tea or something like that. And if you find Xena, tell him that he is still my best bud in the multiverse. You just have love that guy. He laughs so much he has to be a good person... yeah, good luck and don't pull a Star Wars on me, understand?

[Boeseeker 2]

i only AGREE with half of thaat shet

[Dracozombie 4,554]

Thanks a bunch, hatok. Now I have even more reason to hate this series.

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

Thanks a bunch, hatok. Now I have even more reason to hate this series.

 

You don't have to listen what Hatok says you know.

[Dracozombie 4,554]

You don't have to listen what Hatok says you know.

 

So I'm not supposed to listen to the guy with better points than I can argue?