KHDays So if the Ice Cream line is good...

[hatok 6,413]

... because who will I eat ice cream with represents that Roxas has only memories of eating ice cream with her

Then how can anybody say she is a good character? This is the definition of a flat character, she only has one characteristic, according to her fans!

[Col.Random 3,683]

are you just trolling or do you really not understand the purpose of that line?

[coolwings 1,546]

Obviously you don't get it, Xion has more depth than most characters in the series, yes Xion is remembered for eating ice cream. But that doesn't matter, what is Sora remembered for, being the main character. Or are you focusing on characteristics because if you haven't noticed Xion is a puppet with no heart. A character which is flat doesn't go against what she was created for, to save the world. Someone who has no feelings, acts like she does. At least she isn't like most of the other organization characters that do nothing and give in to who they are. Xion turns against her friends just so she can make other people happy, she always puts others before herself, she is kind and brave, what else can you say about someone with no feelings. A flat character, I don't think so.

[hatok 6,413]

A character isn't just their actions. It's not the sweeping, massive moments that make a character

We learn more about Sora by knowing that he still believes in Santa Claus, or that when presented with a hint to a riddle, he wants to figure it out on his own.

Little details are what makes a character.

Sure, Xion uh... 'sacrificed' herself... sort of.

But any other character would have done it. It's not special.

Xion's best character moment is when she puts those sea shells next to Roxas

It's also her only real character moment.

She's not a well made character, she's as flat as a piece of paper

She is wholly defined by one thing: eating ice cream

Kingdom Hearts doesn't have the best characters, when it comes down to it, but pretty much every other major character has more to them than Xion

[Col.Random 3,683]

A character isn't just their actions. It's not the sweeping, massive moments that make a character

We learn more about Sora by knowing that he still believes in Santa Claus, or that when presented with a hint to a riddle, he wants to figure it out on his own.

Little details are what makes a character.

Sure, Xion uh... 'sacrificed' herself... sort of.

But any other character would have done it. It's not special.

Xion's best character moment is when she puts those sea shells next to Roxas

It's also her only real character moment.

She's not a well made character, she's as flat as a piece of paper

She is wholly defined by one thing: eating ice cream

Kingdom Hearts doesn't have the best characters, when it comes down to it, but pretty much every other major character has more to them than Xion

 

Well she is a puppet isn't she? Maybe giving her a flat personality was planned?

[hatok 6,413]

Well she is a puppet isn't she? Maybe giving her a flat personality was planned?

 

Well then it's kind of silly to praise her as an well developed character, isn't it?

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

It's not that it's the only thing she's remembered for, it's that its it's the only thing he could remember about her because she was fading away along with everyone's memories of her.

And every other main character has been around in more games than her. She was only alive for less than a year so we didn't get to learn much about her, so that argument doesn't really hold water.

If she is a flat character it's because she didn't really have time to develop a strong personality to begin with. What do you expect from an infant. People could say Roxas was "flat" for the same reason.

And btw Hatok Vanitas isn't exactly a "deep" character either. His only defining characteristic is being a sadistic troll.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Sora_Kuno

[Col.Random 3,683]

Well then it's kind of silly to praise her as an well developed character, isn't it?

 

Nobody's praising her. Different people have different ideas of what an ideal character is. Xion died for the sake of Sora waking up and Roxas not losing all his energy to her and told him to put an end to Xemnas' plan when she was dying when she could just as easily been all "No firetruck this shit! I'm gonna go to the beach and pick up sea shells there!". Her sacrifice can be considered by a lot of people as heroic.

And then a lot of people have a different opinion and find Xion to be annoying because she's always stressing out and being all "Oh my life is so confusing" so they'll see her as a flat and annoying character.

Also, say whatever you want, but her death was still one of the saddest moments in the series. And from what i've seen people start to like a character when they feel sympathetic for them.

Plus she's cute owo

[hatok 6,413]

It's not that it's the only thing she's remembered for, it's that its it's the only thing he could remember about her because she was fading away along with everyone's memories of her.

And every other main character has been around in more games than her. She was only alive for less than a year so we didn't get to learn much about her, so that argument doesn't really hold water.

If she is a flat character it's because she didn't really have time to develop a strong personality to begin with. What do you expect from an infant. People could say Roxas was "flat" for the same reason.

And btw Hatok Vanitas isn't exactly a "deep" character either. His only defining characteristic is being a sadistic troll.

 

Roxas, or rather, the true Roxas, was only around for as long as Xion, but is more developed. He has small character moments. Xion just reacts to them.

lol, do you think I have a Vanitas avatar and such because he's my favourite character?

In fact,this is my favourite quote about the character

For the people hoping for big things from Vanitas in future titles, like killing Xehanort and what not, can we look at his track record?

 

He challenges Aqua to a fight in Radiant Garden... and loses.

 

He challenges Ven in the Keyblade Graveyard... and loses.

 

He challenges Aqua again in Neverland... and loses.

 

He crafts the X-Blade... and it breaks.

 

He gets finally gets inside Ven's heart... and fails.

 

He unleashes the Unversed... and they are completely inneffectual.

 

Let's face it, kids, he's not very good at this villain thing.

 

In fact, on the last point, know who else goes around to different worlds and leaves a variety of enemies behind to cause mischief? Pete. Only Pete actually has streaks of success, like managing to turn Scar into a Heartless (no matter how the outcome of the world, this was his goal, and it worked), assisting in opening the Underdrome, and the Heartless he leaves lying around seem to do more substantial damage than Vanitas's Unversed.

 

In other words, Pete is a more effective villain than Vanitas.

 

Vanitas is a joke

[coolwings 1,546]

A character isn't just their actions. It's not the sweeping, massive moments that make a character

 

Yeah but then what else can Xion do, she doesn't have feelings. It's the actions that make a character as well, I quote something I have heard, "Actions speak louder than words"

[hatok 6,413]

Yeah but then what else can Xion do, she doesn't have feelings. It's the actions that make a character as well, I quote something I have heard, "Actions speak louder than words"

 

"The boldest actions do not always speak the loudest"

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

Well people usually pick something they like as an avatar so can you blame me for thinking it's the same with you.

Also, I've been reading some of the posts ant threads you'e made and I've got to say Vanitas IS the perfect avatar for you. A troll for a troll.

[coolwings 1,546]

"The boldest actions do not always speak the loudest"

 

Whateves, you think Sora has more development, well maybe but he has had the whole series to develop while Xion only had one game, Xion started off as a little shy girl who followed orders, to someone who is brave enough to escape from her fate to help others. Now lets look at Sora, he was a cheesy boy who gained the fate of the world on his shoulders, he was given so many perks throughout his journey and countless people have helped him, he has never been in a real struggle, only to save his friends but he has never been stuck like Xion where she has to make a decision to sacrifice herself or destroy the worlds. Sora developed into the same cheesy boy with too much power, with more understanding, and wiser but all that is developed is his knowledge .

[hatok 6,413]

Whateves, you think Sora has more development, well maybe but he has had the whole series to develop while Xion only had one game, Xion started off as a little shy girl who followed orders, to someone who is brave enough to escape from her fate to help others. Now lets look at Sora, he was a cheesy boy who gained the fate of the world on his shoulders, he was given so many perks throughout his journey and countless people have helped him, he has never been in a real struggle, only to save his friends but he has never been stuck like Xion where she has to make a decision to sacrifice herself or destroy the worlds. Sora developed into the same cheesy boy with too much power, with more understanding, and wiser but all that is developed is his knowledge .

 

Sora gets more character development per world in KH1 than any other character in the franchise

[Queen Tery 4,591]

Roxas, or rather, the true Roxas, was only around for as long as Xion, but is more developed. He has small character moments. Xion just reacts to them.

lol, do you think I have a Vanitas avatar and such because he's my favourite character?

In fact,this is my favourite quote about the character

Vanitas is a joke

 

I think the only reason people like Vanitas is because of his armor and character design.

[Kirux 1,224]

Now lets look at Sora, he was a cheesy boy who gained the fate of the world on his shoulders, he was given so many perks throughout his journey and countless people have helped him, he has never been in a real struggle, only to save his friends but he has never been stuck like Xion where she has to make a decision to sacrifice herself or destroy the worlds.

Xion chose to face her problems alone. She had both Axel and Roxas there, yet CHOSE to face the situation in solitude.

 

Xion may have sacrificed herself, but she did it in such a melodramatic way that didn't make her death sad at all for me. It came across as "My life is so bad and I'm hurting people I care about, but I don;t trust them enough to try and find a better solution so I better trick my best friend into killing me!"

 

So...yeah.

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

Xion is a bit of a flat character, but first, that's not necessarily bad. That's what almost everyone is. Xemnas is the megalomaniacal overlord, Luxord is the gambler, Axel's the passive-agressive, and Larxene's the b*. The only characters that show some serious depth are Xaldin, mostly due to the intensity with which he hates, rages, and despises love, and Xigbar, who for all his indications that he doesn't care, wonders if the mistakes of the past can ever be undone. Second, she has the capacity, and some signs, of growth. She can become a more interesting and dynamic charcater, and that's the Xion I want to see. Rather than a Xion who apologizes for her own existence asif it were some stain and then cleans up after herself.

[MyDixieRect 2,061]

Xion chose to face her problems alone. She had both Axel and Roxas there, yet CHOSE to face the situation in solitude.

 

Xion may have sacrificed herself, but she did it in such a melodramatic way that didn't make her death sad at all for me. It came across as "My life is so bad and I'm hurting people I care about, but I don;t trust them enough to try and find a better solution so I better trick my best friend into killing me!"

 

So...yeah.

 

You have no idea how many arguments I've had on GameFAQs saying this exact thing...

[Kirux 1,224]

You have no idea how many arguments I've had on GameFAQs saying this exact thing...

 

She falls into the same trap as pretty much every KH character: Trust issues and not a lick of common sense.

[Ruran 481]

I like how this has become a "stop not liking what I liek!" thread.

 

There are multiple things that go into making a good character that often connect but don't have to and each character has their own needs and goals (as characters) that need to be fulfilled. Character development, characterization, character arks, etc. As an imagery construct in a fictional work characters all have a basic outline they should abide by but as other things are applied to them they start to form as their own characters.

 

First let's look at what type of character Xion is. Xion is a pathos character. She exists to be tragic and pull at the audiences heart guts. We all know that something bad is going to happen to her before you even play the game (if you're a pre-established KH fan. Something I noticed is that the people who like Days and Xion the most are the ones that played Days first. Most people who played other KH games before saw her dying a mile away so it wasn't a surprise) if you've played KH2 at the very least before hand.

 

It pretty much goes without saying but in order for a pathos character to be successful you have to care about them, or at the very least, appropriately have the components to make a sympathetic character along with having them executed properly. Xion has the former, components that make her sympathetic but the latter...is what she's lacking. It's not enough to have a character be sympathetic, make them good and pure and do no wrong as things get worse around them to the point the world just seems out to get the poor little woobie for no reason. No, the issue Xion has as a character isn't that she's a "bad person" and that people don't understand how good and sacrificial she is...it's that she's really badly executed...

 

Something that I feel that I should really bring up is good person=/=good character and bad person=/=bad character. That's something that I think confuses a lot of people. If the character is a good person than by default they HAVE to be a good character. Which is simply not true. Sometimes characters aren't even really so much "characters" as they are concepts. Since he was brought up I'll use Vanitas for example. Vanitas has the character depth of a dry puddle with only one note, that note being "MWAHAHAHA!!!" Regardless, I still really like this bastard. Why? I think he's a great concept. I like him as a concept but I will never say (unless they develop him more in the future or something) is that he's a good character because he barely is one.

 

Xion is a good "person" but a very faulty "character". imo for a character to be a pathos character or sympathetic they should at the very least be well rounded. Character development, I think, is somewhat over-rated, or at least not properly viewed, and isn't necessary to make a character good. Just well rounded. That's achieved by having a character undergo characterization which is what the OP keeps bringing up, instances where the characters do things that give more insight to the audience e.g. Sora still believes in Santa Claus and that tells us that he's still very innocent at heart. Xion has these instances but they're few and far in-between with the characteristics being shown repeatedly in a cycle.

 

The bunk of her characterization is completed early and for a twenty five-fifty hours we get roughly the same thing:

 

I'm sad

I like ice cream

I like my friends

I don't want to cause trouble for my friends so I'll stay away from them

 

I'm sad

I like ice cream

I like my friends

I don't want to cause trouble for my friends so I'll stay away from them

 

I'm sad

I like ice cream

I like sea shells

I like my friends

I don't want to cause trouble for my friends so I'll stay away from them

 

Then she diiiiiieeessssss!

 

And no, being a puppet and being in only one game is not an excuse for this. She's a replica, replicas have hearts, Xion and many of the other characters thought she didn't have one because she was being passed off as a Nobody. As well she's a major character who got plenty of screen time which was eaten up (no pun intended) by ice cream scenes. I get what they were trying to do but *FFUUUUUUUU*. After 500 clock tower scenes I stopped eating ice cream for months.

 

Those scenes, all though cute until they make your teeth hurt, didn't make me care about Xion when they should have. They didn't characterize her, there was no characterization to form into character development, and she's not really a character archetype either so she's rendered to...a concept. She's not all that different from Vanitas in this regard because she's really not all that characterized. Her character IS that she's tragic and they didn't build on it well. She's more characterized than Vanitas at least but given all the time they had with her there is no excuse for her to be this flat. If the goal of her character was to be as flat as possible, kudos, she's a success, but if that's the case then again, much like Vanitas, there's no "character" to like or to hate. She's just...a pathos.

 

TL;DR I wonder how many people will read to the bottom of my "rant" lol.

[hatok 6,413]

I like how this has become a "stop not liking what I liek!" thread.

 

There are multiple things that go into making a good character that often connect but don't have to and each character has their own needs and goals (as characters) that need to be fulfilled. Character development, characterization, character arks, etc. As an imagery construct in a fictional work characters all have a basic outline they should abide by but as other things are applied to them they start to form as their own characters.

 

First let's look at what type of character Xion is. Xion is a pathos character. She exists to be tragic and pull at the audiences heart guts. We all know that something bad is going to happen to her before you even play the game (if you're a pre-established KH fan. Something I noticed is that the people who like Days and Xion the most are the ones that played Days first. Most people who played other KH games before saw her dying a mile away so it wasn't a surprise) if you've played KH2 at the very least before hand.

 

It pretty much goes without saying but in order for a pathos character to be successful you have to care about them, or at the very least, appropriately have the components to make a sympathetic character along with having them executed properly. Xion has the former, components that make her sympathetic but the latter...is what she's lacking. It's not enough to have a character be sympathetic, make them good and pure and do no wrong as things get worse around them to the point the world just seems out to get the poor little woobie for no reason. No, the issue Xion has as a character isn't that she's a "bad person" and that people don't understand how good and sacrificial she is...it's that she's really badly executed...

 

Something that I feel that I should really bring up is good person=/=good character and bad person=/=bad character. That's something that I think confuses a lot of people. If the character is a good person than by default they HAVE to be a good character. Which is simply not true. Sometimes characters aren't even really so much "characters" as they are concepts. Since he was brought up I'll use Vanitas for example. Vanitas has the character depth of a dry puddle with only one note, that note being "MWAHAHAHA!!!" Regardless, I still really like this bastard. Why? I think he's a great concept. I like him as a concept but I will never say (unless they develop him more in the future or something) is that he's a good character because he barely is one.

 

Xion is a good "person" but a very faulty "character". imo for a character to be a pathos character or sympathetic they should at the very least be well rounded. Character development, I think, is somewhat over-rated, or at least not properly viewed, and isn't necessary to make a character good. Just well rounded. That's achieved by having a character undergo characterization which is what the OP keeps bringing up, instances where the characters do things that give more insight to the audience e.g. Sora still believes in Santa Claus and that tells us that he's still very innocent at heart. Xion has these instances but they're few and far in-between with the characteristics being shown repeatedly in a cycle.

 

The bunk of her characterization is completed early and for a twenty five-fifty hours we get roughly the same thing:

 

I'm sad

I like ice cream

I like my friends

I don't want to cause trouble for my friends so I'll stay away from them

 

I'm sad

I like ice cream

I like my friends

I don't want to cause trouble for my friends so I'll stay away from them

 

I'm sad

I like ice cream

I like sea shells

I like my friends

I don't want to cause trouble for my friends so I'll stay away from them

 

Then she diiiiiieeessssss!

 

And no, being a puppet and being in only one game is not an excuse for this. She's a replica, replicas have hearts, Xion and many of the other characters thought she didn't have one because she was being passed off as a Nobody. As well she's a major character who got plenty of screen time which was eaten up (no pun intended) by ice cream scenes. I get what they were trying to do but *FFUUUUUUUU*. After 500 clock tower scenes I stopped eating ice cream for months.

 

Those scenes, all though cute until they make your teeth hurt, didn't make me care about Xion when they should have. They didn't characterize her, there was no characterization to form into character development, and she's not really a character archetype either so she's rendered to...a concept. She's not all that different from Vanitas in this regard because she's really not all that characterized. Her character IS that she's tragic and they didn't build on it well. She's more characterized than Vanitas at least but given all the time they had with her there is no excuse for her to be this flat. If the goal of her character was to be as flat as possible, kudos, she's a success, but if that's the case then again, much like Vanitas, there's no "character" to like or to hate. She's just...a pathos.

 

TL;DR I wonder how many people will read to the bottom of my "rant" lol.

 

You remind me of Dave

I like you

[Ruran 481]

You remind me of Dave

I like you

 

Let's make love.

I'll let you call me Dave.

[coolwings 1,546]

Xion chose to face her problems alone. She had both Axel and Roxas there, yet CHOSE to face the situation in solitude.

 

Xion may have sacrificed herself, but she did it in such a melodramatic way that didn't make her death sad at all for me. It came across as "My life is so bad and I'm hurting people I care about, but I don;t trust them enough to try and find a better solution so I better trick my best friend into killing me!"

 

So...yeah.

 

At least Xion was brave enough to face her problems.

 

Xion's sacrifice wasn't melodramatic, she didn't trick Roxas into killing her, Roxas didn't even kill her, she went back to be with Sora. The whole reason Xion fought Roxas was so she could get him to return to Sora as well. She never once showed or said that she hated her life so she got Roxas to kill her, all she wanted to do was to help Riku, so she did what ever she could, even going against her best friends, because Xion wanted to take down the org, not because she hated her life.

Edited October 18, 2012 by coolwings

[Kirux 1,224]

At least Xion was brave enough to face her problems.

 

Xion's sacrifice wasn't melodramatic, she didn't trick Roxas into killing her, Roxas didn't even kill her, she went back to be with Sora. The whole reason Xion fought Roxas was so she could get him to return to Sora as well. She never once showed or said that she hated her life so she got Roxas to kill her, all she wanted to do was to help Riku, so she did what ever she could, even going against her best friends, because Xion wanted to take down the org, not because she hated her life.

 

I never said she HATED her life, but she falls into the depression over existence, or lack there of it, trap.

 

And uh...she totally forced/tricked Roxas into fighting her so he could defeat her so she would be part of Sora again, because she knew he wouldn't do it if she simply asked him to.

 

It wasn't that she went against her friends, because she never even stood BY them or even TRIED to get their help. You cannot 'go against' someone if you were never with them to start. The very moment she found out what she was she turned on them, without even an explanation. Roxas was in the dark about everything until the VERY end of the game.

 

There was plenty of opportunity for Xion to find a better solution to the problem; but she didn't and that was of her own free choice. Over all in the story she made things so much more complicated for Roxas and Axel. Between Xion, Roxas, Axel, and Riku there could have been a much easier, simplier, less traumatic way for the situation to be resolved. Her lack of communication, trust, foresight, and problem solving skills, however; led to the game we got.

 

I cannot fault her for it, however; because many other KH characters have done the same exact thing. Her's is just. as hatok said it best:

 

A character isn't just their actions. It's not the sweeping, massive moments that make a character

We learn more about Sora by knowing that he still believes in Santa Claus, or that when presented with a hint to a riddle, he wants to figure it out on his own.

Little details are what makes a character.

Sure, Xion uh... 'sacrificed' herself... sort of.

But any other character would have done it. It's not special.

Xion's best character moment is when she puts those sea shells next to Roxas

It's also her only real character moment.

She's not a well made character, she's as flat as a piece of paper

She is wholly defined by one thing: eating ice cream

Kingdom Hearts doesn't have the best characters, when it comes down to it, but pretty much every other major character has more to them than Xion

 

[MyDixieRect 2,061]

She falls into the same trap as pretty much every KH character: Trust issues and not a lick of common sense.

 

Her actions end game are what really make me mad. Telling Roxas to set KH free then 5 minutes later going "No, don't! Riku stop him!". What on earth was she thinking? Even the little stuff like asking Riku where Sora is, as if Riku would just disclose it like that made me facepalm so hard.