KH2 Xaldin=Forte?

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

I just noticed something. Anyone who has watched Beauty and the Beast: The Enchanted Christmas will be familiar with the film's antagonist Forte the pipe organ. It seems that both he and Xaldin have similar roles. Both try to prevent beast from falling in love with Belle, (Forte outright warning him against it and Xaldin by telling him that Belle would never reciprocate is feelings) albeit for different reasons, Forte to ensure that the curse remains unbroken and Xaldin to make it easier to lure Beast into giving in to his darkness. My question is, do you think that this was intentional or merely an interesting coincidence?

Edited October 2, 2012 by Sora_Kuno

[Oniaku 280]

I call it coincidence. Xaldin is not a pipe organ.

[Xalaru 445]

I call it coincidence. Xaldin is not a pipe organ.

 

No idea why but that genuinely made me lol.

 

Anyway, not seen this movie in a loooong time, but I'd say coincidence.

[Nweintraub 630]

I think his role is more like that of Gaston.

[Axtwyt 500]

Coincidence. Xaldin is more fulfilling the role of Gaston, not Forte.

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

Forte is Xaldin's Heartless. He was trapped by Beast's father, who couldn't figure out how to kill Heartless, and eventually grew sentient, and also soght the destruction of that weakness known as love.

[WakelessDream 2,278]

But you could make the same argument with Xaldin and Gaston, its probably a coincidence, and they sorta kinda used Xaldin to keep to the world's story

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

But you could make the same argument with Xaldin and Gaston, its probably a coincidence, and they sorta kinda used Xaldin to keep to the world's story

 

Gaston is arrogant and thinks he's the best thing since (um, did they have sliced bread when the story takes place?)

Forte was all like 'Love is EVIL!' and 'Your affections for Belle will make you weak' and 'Why don't you play with your organ more' So in other words he's a gay Xaldin. Nothing like Gaston.

[Kirux 1,224]

'Why don't you play with your organ more'

 

Context. Who needs it?

 

 

Forte is Xaldin's Heartless. He was trapped by Beast's father, who couldn't figure out how to kill Heartless, and eventually grew sentient, and also soght the destruction of that weakness known as love.

 

I actually really like that theory. I've always wondered exactly what kind of heartless the Org's members had been.

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

Forte is Xaldin's Heartless. He was trapped by Beast's father, who couldn't figure out how to kill Heartless, and eventually grew sentient, and also soght the destruction of that weakness known as love.

 

 

I actually really like that theory. I've always wondered exactly what kind of heartless the Org's members had been.

 

 

Only Sora and Xehanort's heartless retained their sense of self and displayed human intelligence.

Edited October 3, 2012 by devereauxr

[Kirux 1,224]

 

Only Sora and Xehanort's heartless retained their sense of self and displayed human intelligence.

 

So? I wanna know what abilities they had. Were they just shadows, or were they special boss heartless? So many questions.

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

So? I wanna know what abilities they had. Were they just shadows, or were they special boss heartless? So many questions.

 

I was referring to his theory that forte was Xaldin's heartless, also nomura himself stated that they were most likely normal everyday heartless like the shadows.

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

Context. Who needs it?

 

 

 

 

I actually really like that theory. I've always wondered exactly what kind of heartless the Org's members had been.

 

 

 

 

 

Only Sora and Xehanort's heartless retained their sense of self and displayed human intelligence.

 

Guys, I wasn't serious. And actually we don't know they were the only ones to retain sense of self, we just know they were the only ones Zexion knew about.

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

Guys, I wasn't serious. And actually we don't know they were the only ones to retain sense of self, we just know they were the only ones Zexion knew about.

 

Actually we do know they were the only ones. Not only did Nomura say it but it was stated in game by mutiple people other then Zexion. Edited October 3, 2012 by devereauxr

[Kirux 1,224]

Guys, I wasn't serious. And actually we don't know they were the only ones to retain sense of self, we just know they were the only ones Zexion knew about.

 

 

Actually we do know they were the only ones. Not only did Nomura say it but it was stated in game by mutiple people other then Zexion.

 

Wow...I know you weren't serious. I can't just like it? I think it's a cool idea. Simple as that.

 

Nomura says a lot of bullshit that turns out not to be true or he changes his damn mind. Even if they were generic heartless, it's still be cool to know what kind. Soldier? Big body? Blue Rhapsody? Air Glider?

 

What's with this site trying to kill people curiosity? Gyahds.

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

Wow...I know you weren't serious. I can't just like it? I think it's a cool idea. Simple as that.

 

Nomura says a lot of bullshit that turns out not to be true or he changes his damn mind. Even if they were generic heartless, it's still be cool to know what kind. Soldier? Big body? Blue Rhapsody? Air Glider?

 

What's with this site trying to kill people curiosity? Gyahds.

 

It's not about killing your curiousity, I was just pointing it out because other people will take it for real and spread wrong information. Also until Nomura does retcon something it still stands as cannon regardless whether he might or might not retcon it in the future.

[Kirux 1,224]

It's not about killing your curiousity, I was just pointing it out because other people will take it for real and spread wrong information. Also until Nomura does retcon something it still stands as cannon regardless whether he might or might not retcon it in the future.

 

I get that. I know that very well. I get that it's cannon only the two of them retained sense of self. I was even saying the other did retain sense of self. I only ever was wondering about what sort of heartless they were.

 

I can appreciate you trying to squash and confusion with other people in the future. I think from now on I'm just going to keep all my 'I wonders' to myself cause this just happens far too often. No offense to you, other people do it a lot as well.

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

Wow...I know you weren't serious. I can't just like it? I think it's a cool idea. Simple as that.

 

Nomura says a lot of bullshit that turns out not to be true or he changes his damn mind. Even if they were generic heartless, it's still be cool to know what kind. Soldier? Big body? Blue Rhapsody? Air Glider?

 

What's with this site trying to kill people curiosity? Gyahds.

 

From that perspective I think the Organization works best representing the color-music style Heartless (like Blue Rhapsody) except Luxord, since only Phantom uses time as a weapon, and nobody uses cards.

 

Actually we do know they were the only ones. Not only did Nomura say it but it was stated in game by mutiple people other then Zexion.

 

—So [the Nobodies'] Heartless, you’re saying they were defeated somewhere along the line?

Nomura: Well Sora has defeated many Heartless before now, hasn’t he? To say that they returned to being human, their Heartless was probably included among those, huh? (Laughs.) Even when Sora became a Heartless, he was a normal Shadow type. The details of their Heartless aren’t really that important.

(Famitsu Weekly 2012/01/18)

If the XIII Organization are Nobodies, does that mean their Heartless are somewhere, too?

They’re probably somewhere but not that great of a Heartless. Xehanort was about the only one who has a human-shaped Heartless. Famitsu 2006

 

Therefore he's saying it's not a big deal, don't spend a bunch of time, because I can say they were all shadows, or I could have them all be bosses. And Ansem's humanoid Heartless may not be unique.

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

From that perspective I think the Organization works best representing the color-music style Heartless (like Blue Rhapsody) except Luxord, since only Phantom uses time as a weapon, and nobody uses cards.

 

 

—So [the Nobodies'] Heartless, you’re saying they were defeated somewhere along the line?

Nomura: Well Sora has defeated many Heartless before now, hasn’t he? To say that they returned to being human, their Heartless was probably included among those, huh? (Laughs.) Even when Sora became a Heartless, he was a normal Shadow type. The details of their Heartless aren’t really that important.

(Famitsu Weekly 2012/01/18)

If the XIII Organization are Nobodies, does that mean their Heartless are somewhere, too?

They’re probably somewhere but not that great of a Heartless. Xehanort was about the only one who has a human-shaped Heartless. Famitsu 2006

 

 

Therefore he's saying it's not a big deal, don't spend a bunch of time, because I can say they were all shadows, or I could have them all be bosses. And Ansem's humanoid Heartless may not be unique.

 

What's your point because I already had this discussion with you many of times. In order for any of the organization members to have boss level heartless, they need a huge amount of darkness within them when they lose their hearts. Also you keep twisting it so you can suggest that Luxord is phantom when he was one of the weakest of the org members which is why he always complained in days that he was always at the bottom of the ladder and didn't know what was going on. Also nomura even said that all the apprentices were good people until they got involved with Xehanort. Edited October 4, 2012 by devereauxr

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

What's your point because I already had this discussion with you many of times. In order for any of the organization members to have boss level heartless, they need a huge amount of darkness within them when they lose their hearts. Also you keep twisting it so you can suggest that Luxord is phantom when he was one of the weakest of the org members which is why he always complained in days that he was always at the bottom of the ladder and didn't know what was going on. Also nomura even said that all the apprentices were good people until they got involved with Xehanort.

 

I'm not saying anything about what Heartless anyone turned into, I'm saying you CAN'T know. Tetsuya Nomura says it's not likely that they were anything major, but that's not definate. And since we don't know anything about Demyx, Luxord, Marluxia, or Larxene's Somebodies, any comments about how much darkness they might have had is fruitless. I'm not saying it's absolute canon that Luxord's Nobody is Phantom, I do say the phantom is the only Heartless with time-based attacks, but we don't even know if there's a connection between Nobody powers and Heartless. I like to tell myself Luxord is much more powerful then he displayed in his battle, partially becauise he shows more talent, but largely because he's my favorite character, I want him to be ever more awesome. And I'm sorry, Vexen/Even was always a creepr of the highest quality, and Braig? He definately seemed pretty terrible. But most importantly, how do you know what the apprentices were like? They have aprox. 10 seconds of screen time apiece, that's hardly enough time to tell if someone is a good or bad person.

Finally, the Organization gave numbers VII-XIII based on arrival, not power-level. Demyx is higher than Luxord, Axel is lower than Vexen, and Marluxia, the final boss of CoM is only stronger than Larxene and Roxas. No, the numbers are chronological. Luxord isn't in the loop because Xemnas, Saix, etc. are masterminding everything, not because he's so weak they feared he couldn't handle the shock of finding out Xion's a Replica.

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

I'm not saying anything about what Heartless anyone turned into, I'm saying you CAN'T know. Tetsuya Nomura says it's not likely that they were anything major, but that's not definate. And since we don't know anything about Demyx, Luxord, Marluxia, or Larxene's Somebodies, any comments about how much darkness they might have had is fruitless.

 

It's not fruitless, the fact that Nomura did not even bother mentioning which heartless belonged to who suggests that they weren't even significant enough to mention. The fact that he mentions that Sora could have defeated their heartless amongst the many he has slain(Without even realizing it I might add) also suggests that they were common heartless that were able to blend in without standing out.

Like I said to you before if any of the Organization members had boss level heartless it would have been Xigbar, Marluxia, and maybe Larxene, all of which displayed inherently evil tendencies as nobodies( a direct reflection of the Somebodies). Bearing all this in mind one could reasonably conclude based on Luxord personality in days (which for the most part was one of the nicer ones) that he was not an evil person from the very beginning and therefore could not have produced a heartless as strong a s the phantom.

 

And I'm sorry, Vexen/Even was always a creepr of the highest quality, and Braig? He definately seemed pretty terrible. But most importantly, how do you know what the apprentices were like? They have aprox. 10 seconds of screen time apiece, that's hardly enough time to tell if someone is a good or bad person.

 

Even/Vexen may have been creepy but he didn't really come off as evil more of a mad scientist in pursuit of knowledge. As for Braig/Xigbar I already addressed that if any of the org members had boss level heartless it was him.

 

 

Finally, the Organization gave numbers VII-XIII based on arrival, not power-level. Demyx is higher than Luxord, Axel is lower than Vexen, and Marluxia, the final boss of CoM is only stronger than Larxene and Roxas. No, the numbers are chronological. Luxord isn't in the loop because Xemnas, Saix, etc. are masterminding everything, not because he's so weak they feared he couldn't handle the shock of finding out Xion's a Replica.

 

I never brought up their numbers I was referring to their ranks, as one of the weaker members who had completed the least amount of missions. Only Siax, Xemnas and Xigbar knew about Xion because they were the highest ranking members. As Luxord wasn't a higher ranking member he knew little to nothing about Xion.

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

It's not fruitless, the fact that Nomura did not even bother mentioning which heartless belonged to who suggests that they weren't even significant enough to mention. The fact that he mentions that Sora could have defeated their heartless amongst the many he has slain(Without even realizing it I might add) also suggests that they were common heartless that were able to blend in without standing out.

Like I said to you before if any of the Organization members had boss level heartless it would have been Xigbar, Marluxia, and maybe Larxene, all of which displayed inherently evil tendencies as nobodies( a direct reflection of the Somebodies). Bearing all this in mind one could reasonably conclude based on Luxord personality in days (which for the most part was one of the nicer ones) that he was not an evil person from the very beginning and therefore could not have produced a heartless as strong a s the phantom.

It means Sora could have defeated them without connecting them to the Organization member, so he could have beaten a boss and not thought, 'Hey, that Heartless tried to kill me with ice. Vexen also tried to kill me with ice. Coinicdence, I think not!' This means any Heartless Sora fought in KH, any Heartless for a Nobody from CO, and every Heartless Roxas fought could be connected to a Nobody, and it would be unbeliveable for Sora to make the connection. And you are basing your decison of who the Somebodies with the darkest hearts were off of thier Nobodies' actions. Going through the KHII I wouldn't readily assume Braig and Apprentice Xehanort were super dark, Apprentice Xehanort was definately misguided, but hardly full of so much evil as to create a sentient Heartless. Luxord's nice, his Somebody could be a meglomaniacal dictator who liked to randomly decide who to execute. We can only guess based on incomplete information.

 

Even/Vexen may have been creepy but he didn't really come off as evil more of a mad scientist in pursuit of knowledge. As for Braig/Xigbar I already addressed that if any of the org members had boss level heartless it was him.

There is some fairly strong circumstantial evidence regarding his prior connection to Master Xehanort, and one needs not be evil to harbor darkness in one's heart.

 

I never brought up their numbers I was referring to their ranks, as one of the weaker members who had completed the least amount of missions. Only Siax, Xemnas and Xigbar knew about Xion because they were the highest ranking members. As Luxord wasn't a higher ranking member he knew little to nothing about Xion.

You said he was one of the weaker members, and he was the third to the last you faced. I will not deny that his battle was far easier than the other members (and I won't even get into how it shouldn't have been) but Sora was much more powerful then when he fought anyone else (except Xigbar). I don't know why you'd assume Luxord is weak.

 

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

It means Sora could have defeated them without connecting them to the Organization member, so he could have beaten a boss and not thought, 'Hey, that Heartless tried to kill me with ice. Vexen also tried to kill me with ice. Coinicdence, I think not!' This means any Heartless Sora fought in KH, any Heartless for a Nobody from CO, and every Heartless Roxas fought could be connected to a Nobody, and it would be unbeliveable for Sora to make the connection. And you are basing your decison of who the Somebodies with the darkest hearts were off of thier Nobodies' actions. Going through the KHII I wouldn't readily assume Braig and Apprentice Xehanort were super dark, Apprentice Xehanort was definately misguided, but hardly full of so much evil as to create a sentient Heartless. Luxord's nice, his Somebody could be a meglomaniacal dictator who liked to randomly decide who to execute. We can only guess based on incomplete information.

Obviously your going to keep twisting what I say to fit you belief that Luxord's heartless is the Phantom. So quite frankly I'm done with this argument as it's going in circles and is going no where.

 

 

There is some fairly strong circumstantial evidence regarding his prior connection to Master Xehanort, and one needs not be evil to harbor darkness in one's heart.

You keep contradicting yourself first you say that the apprentices were all good people and their nobodies weren't inherently evil, then you back peddle and say that they had enough darkness within them to produce boss level heartless. It's at a point now where I can't take any of your arguments seriously.

 

You said he was one of the weaker members, and he was the third to the last you faced. I will not deny that his battle was far easier than the other members (and I won't even get into how it shouldn't have been) but Sora was much more powerful then when he fought anyone else (except Xigbar). I don't know why you'd assume Luxord is weak.

Let's put it this way Demyx was always portrayed as the weakest member in the organization, however once you actually fought him he turned out to be a pretty strong fighter and for the most part used offensive tactics. Luxord on the other hand was one of the last members you fought, so one would logically think he was one of the stronger fighters but when you actually fight him he used defensive tactics and tricks to keep Sora at bay( he was not very strong, nor was he effective in his battle with Sora).

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

Obviously your going to keep twisting what I say to fit you belief that Luxord's heartless is the Phantom. So quite frankly I'm done with this argument as it's going in circles and is going no where.

I'm not saying Luxord is the Phantom, i'm saying the Phantom is the only Heartless we fought with Luxord's powers, and I like to believe he's Luxord's Heartless. Luxord's Heartless could be any Heartless but Ansem, Sora's Shadow, or the KHII ones that popped into existence in that game. Until Nomura makes a deleration contradicting that belief, I will believe that he is, but only because I like the idea. If you want to believe that everyone turned into Shadows that's fine, just don't claim that's canon.

 

You keep contradicting yourself first you say that the apprentices were all good people and their nobodies weren't inherently evil, then you back peddle and say that they had enough darkness within them to produce boss level heartless. It's at a point now where I can't take any of your arguments seriously.

First, Darkness doesn't mean evil, and Light doesn't mean good. It tends to align that way because darkness focuses on power and control, which can take over a person's heart. Riku wields darkness, and yet is a hero, and Eraqus tries to kill Ven in the name of light. So the Somebodies might have had Dark hearts, and not been evil. Furthermore the apprentices are different individuals from thier Nobodies. I object to the assumption that all the Nobodies, as a group, were evil. The Organization did terrible things, and whether they stood by or even encouraged them, that is not OK. But unless you know which happened, you can't judge them. You need to judge based on actions, not how close they are to a 'complete' individual.

The best example, in my mind, of the disparity between Somebody and Nobody is Larxene. We know nothing of her Somebody, but she acts manipulative, lacks empathy, and is entirely self-focused. But when you can't feel and empathize without a heart, why should you care if you hurt people? She is what one could expect a normal human to be if they lost thier ability to empathize, a sociopath. That is the primary requirement, you have to not see other people as important, not individuals with thier own values and beliefs and rights.

 

 

Let's put it this way Demyx was always portrayed as the weakest member in the organization, however once you actually fought him he turned out to be a pretty strong fighter and for the most part used offensive tactics. Luxord on the other hand was one of the last members you fought, so one would logically think he was one of the stronger fighters but when you actually fight him he used defensive tactics and tricks to keep Sora at bay( he was not very strong, nor was he effective in his battle with Sora).

I wouldn't say Demyx was portrayed as the weakest member, mearly the least combative. He didn't want to fight, one would expect him to be weak therefore, but it's merely ironic, not contradictory. Luxord didn't use defensive tactics, he changed the tules of how to fight, and engaged in slow, inefectual attacks. Vexen favored defense, Luxord just wasn't very good. But by the end of KHII you're stronger than you were in CoM or during Demyx's fight and Xaldin's as well. I have never played KHIIFM, but I'm pretty sure that if I did, and used exp zero after my fight with Demyx, I would find Luxord's battle impossible (assuming somehow I managed to beat Xigbar first). Now, I'm not claiming Luxord is the most powerful member of Organization XIII. I wish it were the case, but it's not. I don't even think that he would be stronger than Xaldin. But he is a far cry from the weakest.

 

[Robbie the Wise 5,050]

 

Luxord used diversionary tactics in battle such as using his cards to shield himself, turning Sora into a dice, and forcing him to play his little games. All of this was done to avoid direct head to head combat, in my book that is a defensive fighting style. Once Sora stripped Luxord of his tricks he didn't stand a chance. Not to mention Sora was only gained strength from the beginning of the game up until that point (with the exception of the drive forms which weren't necessarily) because at the beginning of the game he was reset to level.

Also once again your contradicting yourself you by your own words are helping my point. Name one example of a nobody who was an evil person and then acted like a nice person once he became a nobody. Also many of the organization members retained their personalities when they became nobodies in fact with the exception of Isa( a confirmed sucessful vessel) all of them were similar or identical to how they were portrayed as somebodies. The nobodies kept their memories and were able to portray the personalities and reactions they would have as nobodies. So needless to say, there is a lot of base in saying Luxord was a relatively good guy as a somebody based on his personality in days and KH2

 

By your own words you have acknowleged that too much of anything whether it be light or darkness can be corrupted and therefore is evil. Consider the amount of darkness it takes to produce a boss level heartless you have to be pretty evil to make one. Eraqus allowed himself to be corrupted by light in the same token and Riku regardless of how he uses it now allowed darkness to corrupt him. To clarify my point darkness may not be necessarily used only for evil, but having too much of it is evil (don't believe me look at Xehanort). WIth that being said you have no basis to say that

 

 

Also could you please put your statements after the quote tags, it's hard to respond to your points if you do in my quote box.

Edited October 4, 2012 by devereauxr