KH3D Why is it that many people dont like the kh 3d story?

[MasterTeli 60]

 

 

It's far from par with BBS (See above)

 

Well now you're the one arguing with Nomura San!

[hatok 6,413]

Well now you're the one arguing with Nomura San!

 

Nope o: I'm pretty sure Nomura said KH3D is more important or maybe as important as BbS. (Yeah, yeah, I AM searching for this interview ~.~)

Punch me if I'm mistaken.

 

I have not found anything that confirms he said that, after a quick search. If you can present a source, by all means

[KingdomKarts_:P 14]

I really think youre connecting the short story with the bad story.... Kh 3d doesnt have the longest story ( in fact its rather short ) but it explains old things as well which didnt make sense. I know those things could be explained as summaries, but explanation ---> battle seems more epic Only prob is that this game had an ending that makes you wantin to play the next game , unlike kh 1 or 2

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

I felt mostly disappointed by the story, there was a lot that could have been done better, and some things that simply didn't make sense.

The plot for most of the worlds was severely sub-par for anything but Days (which has it make sense.

 

Traverse Town- Excellent plot, well set-up, no complaints

 

City of Bells- This is my favorite Disney animated movie, and its pretty dark, with Frollo ready to execute Esmerelda if she doesn't sleep with him, and blaming God for this. There's a lot you can do with this. instead we have Riku explaining that it's not Frollo's years of mental conditioning and mental manipulation, or an understandably intense fear of going outside after he is assaulted by the townsfolk that is keeping Quasimodo imprisoned. Its his heart. Riku, you're the brains of this group, DON'T BE STUPID. Sora is just there to fight some Dream Eaters. He really has nothing contributed or to contribute.

 

Prankster's Paradise- This world had the most possibility, particularly as someone who objects to Sora's casual murder of the Nobodies. Instead we just sort of help Pinnochio get to Gepetto, and Sora is basically smacked in the face with the idea that he might have killed actual people. Sora instantly rejects it, but if it were true then... no he just doesn't see any problem with what he did. Riku is just told he needs a conscience.

 

The Grid: This was done well. It is awesome. For Sora. Sora has to deal with people he cares about not conscidered to have hearts. The way he deals with this is exactly what one would expect, you're wrong I know there is a bond between us, a bond between hearts. And the moment when Tron falls down and Sora reaches out to try and save him, brilliant. Riku just follows the plot of that movie (what little of it is there is).

 

Traverse Town- Still awesome. Plot points are addressed, Sora acts like a good person, Joshua pokes some fun at Sora, and Riku makes friends.

 

Country of the Musketeers- This world has basically no point, other than make Donald and Goofy even less useful. Oh, and to muddle our timelines even further, and tell us Riku can make boxes disappear.

 

Symphony of Sorcery- This world is stupid. It could have been good, it was stupid, and I HATE the battle with Chernabog.

 

The World that Never Was- All the problems with this game could be forgiven if they had dealt with this well. They didn't, and it gives the game its death blow. Sora is in a wierd world of illusion, seeing people as they turn into other people, and generally this is weird. But the biggest problem is when he sees Roxas. Now if you missed it, I object to Sora killing the Nobodies, I think they have and had a right to exist, and he had no right to deprive them of that without pressing need (Xemnas is the only one I can condone). So you might think I should love this scene. But I can't, because Sora needs to admit he was wrong. In KHII he endorsed the 'Nobodies have no hearts, and therefore may be killed without qualms, after all, they don't exist' by this point in KH 3Ds his opinion is 'Nobodies have a right to exist, that they should not be deprived of, but there is nothing wrong with my previous actions' He needs to apologize for killing them, and then he'll need to wonder if he even has the right to continue as a Keyblade wielder if he can kill people without thought. Unfortunately this makes his grand speech, about how he's just a part of something much greater problematic. He hasn't earned it. You don't get to call Xemnas, the man who is willing to commit genocide to create Kingdom Hearts out on lying to the other Nobodies when you killed them for the crime of being Nobodies. Even if you though for some ineffable reason they were friends, he's still in the moral high-ground. Xemnas. The Nobody of Xehanort, who wants to start a Keybalde War to see what would happen and lose countless lives to forge a X-Blade, has the moral high-ground over Sora, and nothing can change that, but as Sora is our hero, I should expect him to try and fix that. He has no reaction to the revelation he killed people with hearts, and blames it all on Xemnas. What in the name of the bloody blazes is this?!?!?

As for Riku, his story is much better, it's his job to rescue Sora, he does this and we have the most anti-climactic boss battle ever against our Mysterious Figure. I know secret bosses aren't supposed to be taken as entirely canonical in terms of powers and strength, but DANG, the guy is pathetic. We fight him, and we are given an indication we're going to have Drama between Lea and Isa. Fantastic, I really want to have to deal with this in the next game.

 

At least Riku's final job is fun, a darkness infused Ventus armor and WTF another Ansem! Get out of there you creeper! Alright, we've got the data, and we've finished the game. Woot.

Why

didn't I like the game? The worlds were anti-climactic, Sora didn't learn anything, and Riku's jobs were save Sora and tag along in the background of anything important.

[KingdomKarts_:P 14]

You have a point ( the worlds were anti-climactic i agree ) But i totally dont agree with you about what sora did to the nobodies. They were those who attacked him just like that lolz. Demyx, Xaldin blah blah blah... everyone. Sora wasnt chasing to KILL them, he was chasing to stop them because they were making a kingdom hearts with peoples hearts http://kh13.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.png. And in the end we learn that the organization had hearts anyway ( which explains their weird movements, demyx attacked sora with no reason like xaldin, and marluxia tried to betray xemnas without reason as well, since he was supposed to have no heart).

 

AND you can make the game as easy or as hard as you want, which i like.

[Rob 5,571]

Many of my German KH Companions said the Story in KH3D was the worst ever... I don't really know why and I can't understand them, I wanted KH3D since it was announced and my expectations have been met ... I really like the Story cause it adds a very big mysterious part to the KH Universe and it's pretty cool that this Game's center was Riku's growth ~ I have no complains towards the Story

 

Considering that 6 year old Germans were allowed to play this game.......seems legit.

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

You have a point ( the worlds were anti-climactic i agree ) But i totally dont agree with you about what sora did to the nobodies. They were those who attacked him just like that lolz. Demyx, Xaldin blah blah blah... everyone. Sora wasnt chasing to KILL them, he was chasing to stop them because they were making a kingdom hearts with peoples hearts http://kh13.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.png. And in the end we learn that the organization had hearts anyway ( which explains their weird movements, demyx attacked sora with no reason like xaldin, and marluxia tried to betray xemnas without reason as well, since he was supposed to have no heart).

 

AND you can make the game as easy or as hard as you want, which i like.

 

Sora goes about antagonizing the Organization members, and assuming that there's nothing wrong with killing them, and wjile I don't condone what the Organization was doing, there were better ways of dealing with them, especially Demyx, who after he boils away Sora's first reaction isn't 'Ahhh! I just killed somebody, and then it totally looked like they boiled alive' it's, 'Who else can I do this to?' I'll agree that some of the confrontations would have been hard to avoid, but Sora takes the approach 'I see a Nobody. I will attack the Nobody*. I will kill the Nobody. I will look for a Nobody.'

 

The fact that they had hearts is what makes it truly terrible Sora doesn't mind. He decided he can kill the Nobodies, because they don't even exist or have hearts. Except they do, you just killed people. With every right to existence. Ergo he was in the wrong, and he needs to admit it. He admits Roxas has a right to an independent existence, therefore he should admit depriving the Nobodies of that right is not OK.

And all of their actions make sense with or without hearts, Demyx attacks Sora because he was told to, and doesn't want to get turned into a Dusk. Granted this doesn't explain where all that power came from, but his attacking Sora makes sense.

Xaldin views love as a weakness, and intends to gain a powerful Nobody while proving himself right, because he uses it to manipulate Beast.

Marluxia wants to betray Xemnas because he wants power. Maybe he's even confusing his desire for a heart for a desire for power, but he is after power.

 

*Exceptions being Saïx whom he begs to let him see Kairi, and Xemnas, who he decides to give a second chance. ¬_¬ Because the genocidal maniac deserves another chance, but not Demyx, he's just unforgivable.

[VanitasTheBest 196]

Considering that 6 year old Germans were allowed to play this game.......seems legit.

 

Oh, if it was only true ... x:

When I think about it, they really behaved like 6 year olds ... Well, never mind, as they said that, I was pretty sure they just wanted to hate me, because I was always saying "KH3D is amazing!" and they're like... they can't stand me (dunno why ) But they didn't give up to say KH3D is the worst game and now I'm pretty sure they're just a bunch of *censored*

[Sora'sMum 352]

Birth by sleep = kh0

COM = kh1.5

358 days = kh1.5:2

Recoded = kh2.01

DDD = kh2.02

[Dracozombie 4,554]

Sora didn't kill the Nobodies for the crime of being Nobodies. He killed them because they were willing and going to commit countless damage for their own desires. As far as the Organization bar Roxas and Xion was concerned, everyone could go rot if it meant getting their hearts back. Even Demyx, the guy who was only following orders, didn't give a rat's ass about anyone but himself. Find canon that contradicts any of this. Combined with his belief at the time that Nobodies shouldn't exist and couldn't feel, and all the damage they were committing for their personal agendas, how was Sora supposed to act?

 

You also forget that if Sora hadn't "murdered" them all they wouldn't have come back to their original personas at all. Hearts or no, a Nobody is, technically, only a partial existence. Is murdering a shadow of something true murder? Maybe Sora gave a pass to Roxas about having his own existence because 1) he wasn't out intentionally screwing anyone over, just killing Heartless for their hearts, and 2) everyone but him and Xion got their original identities back; Roxas didn't, because he was a special case with him coexisting at the same time as his Somebody.

 

How's the Organization gonna pay for their actions? Axel is by helping out, but what about, say, Zexion? Do you think he feels any regret about what he'd done? There's no implication in 3D or anywhere else he feels any inkling of remorse. Sora kills them because they're hurting others, and their reward is a complete existence. Um, what? Why do they get revived but not Roxas, who hadn't knowingly done anything wrong during his time in the Organization? Why will Axel and the others have to go through all this trouble to bring him back, if it happens at all, when he's the one who deserves it most?

 

In my opinion, the Organization hadn't paid nearly enough.

[KingdomKarts_:P 14]

Sora goes about antagonizing the Organization members, and assuming that there's nothing wrong with killing them, and wjile I don't condone what the Organization was doing, there were better ways of dealing with them, especially Demyx, who after he boils away Sora's first reaction isn't 'Ahhh! I just killed somebody, and then it totally looked like they boiled alive' it's, 'Who else can I do this to?' I'll agree that some of the confrontations would have been hard to avoid, but Sora takes the approach 'I see a Nobody. I will attack the Nobody*. I will kill the Nobody. I will look for a Nobody.'

 

The fact that they had hearts is what makes it truly terrible Sora doesn't mind. He decided he can kill the Nobodies, because they don't even exist or have hearts. Except they do, you just killed people. With every right to existence. Ergo he was in the wrong, and he needs to admit it. He admits Roxas has a right to an independent existence, therefore he should admit depriving the Nobodies of that right is not OK.

And all of their actions make sense with or without hearts, Demyx attacks Sora because he was told to, and doesn't want to get turned into a Dusk. Granted this doesn't explain where all that power came from, but his attacking Sora makes sense.

Xaldin views love as a weakness, and intends to gain a powerful Nobody while proving himself right, because he uses it to manipulate Beast.

Marluxia wants to betray Xemnas because he wants power. Maybe he's even confusing his desire for a heart for a desire for power, but he is after power.

 

*Exceptions being Saïx whom he begs to let him see Kairi, and Xemnas, who he decides to give a second chance. ¬_¬ Because the genocidal maniac deserves another chance, but not Demyx, he's just unforgivable.

 

Still demyx s attack doesnt make sense, why would xemnas tell him to kill smone he needs? I think demyx just lied. Xaldin sees love as a weakness, but he uses it to manipulate beast and therefore, release many heartless ( who cares about beasts nobody ) Remember you cant release heartless anywhere ya want, ya have to meet the right conditions.

Also, Sora was calm because he knew nobodies dont exist anyway, so after battling demyx he realized that the org was villainious. Would ya feel bad about killin smone who is villain and doesnt exist ( thats what he knew anyway ). In this universe i would.. but in the kh universe i wouldnt . However.... it wasnt their fault... im sure they ALL suffered from chronic villainy due to xehanort. Why? Cause their somebodies are good.. even axel was villainious, tryin to kill sora in re:com with no specific reason.

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

Still demyx s attack doesnt make sense, why would xemnas tell him to kill smone he needs? I think demyx just lied. Xaldin sees love as a weakness, but he uses it to manipulate beast and therefore, release many heartless ( who cares about beasts nobody ) Remember you cant release heartless anywhere ya want, ya have to meet the right conditions.

Also, Sora was calm because he knew nobodies dont exist anyway, so after battling demyx he realized that the org was villainious. Would ya feel bad about killin smone who is villain and doesnt exist ( thats what he knew anyway ). In this universe i would.. but in the kh universe i wouldnt . However.... it wasnt their fault... im sure they ALL suffered from chronic villainy due to xehanort. Why? Cause their somebodies are good.. even axel was villainious, tryin to kill sora in re:com with no specific reason.

 

He's supposed to 'liberate his true disposition' through violence. In other words they want Roxas because he's easier to manipulate, and they think Roxas will come out in combat. Xaldin's purpose can't be the formation of Heartless, if Beast turns into a Heartless he'd be a pure-blood, useless for Kingdom Hearts. When did they say they can't just throw Heartless into a world and call it a day, there have to be conditions?

No insult intended towards Sora, but he's not exactly bright. For most people if you can see and feel something it exists. Having a group of individuals who look exactly like humans (consider aside from Clayton Sora has never killed/lead to the death of a humaniform individual to his knowledge) and seem to exist should be at least a little problem, he doesn't even blink when they die, in what appears to be intense agony*. I give him a free pass in CoM because Naminé is messing with his head, but Xemnas appears to boil, Xaldin is shredded by the wind, and Axel fades away after sacrificing himself to help Sora.

I hate to say this, but the manga did something well. When Sora fights Xaldin, he doesn't kill him, he beats him up to the point Xaldin can't fight anymore, and sends him to tell the Organization to stay out of his way. Admittedly he gets killed by a Vexen Replica, but that's what a hero does, not killing people and not giving it another thought.

 

I don't get the chronic villainy for anyone but Xigbar and Xemnas. The rest either weren't really villains, I mean Demyx doesn't even do anything. At least Luxord let loose a giant Heartless in Port Royal. Axel wasn't any sort of villain even in KH, the first time you fight him it's just for his own amusement, the second he needs to fake his own death to get Sora to leave him alone, and because fighting Sora's fun.

 

*except Xigbar and Luxord, who die with style and a sense of betrayal respectively

[Nafees Rahman 35]

Hell I loved it espically being able to fight ansem in 3d gamelplay cause I didnt play kh 1 or beat bbs so all I got was chain of memories boss fight

[keystrike 145]

I havent seen peoples complaining about its story. They just didnt like time travel theme, cause they didnt understand it much (even though it was easy to)

 

Time travel is as easy to explain as the square root of negative one. Anybody can understand that you just add an extra dimension to the number line to include these imaginary numbers. Does it make sense? Yes as far as definitions go, but any intuitive meaning would appear to be complete nonesense. Throwing together a couple definitions is not an eloquent or truly understandable way to introduce time travel.

 

This is my biggest grippe on the game if anyone hasn't caught on already.

[KingdomKarts_:P 14]

He's supposed to 'liberate his true disposition' through violence. In other words they want Roxas because he's easier to manipulate, and they think Roxas will come out in combat. Xaldin's purpose can't be the formation of Heartless, if Beast turns into a Heartless he'd be a pure-blood, useless for Kingdom Hearts. When did they say they can't just throw Heartless into a world and call it a day, there have to be conditions?

No insult intended towards Sora, but he's not exactly bright. For most people if you can see and feel something it exists. Having a group of individuals who look exactly like humans (consider aside from Clayton Sora has never killed/lead to the death of a humaniform individual to his knowledge) and seem to exist should be at least a little problem, he doesn't even blink when they die, in what appears to be intense agony*. I give him a free pass in CoM because Naminé is messing with his head, but Xemnas appears to boil, Xaldin is shredded by the wind, and Axel fades away after sacrificing himself to help Sora.

I hate to say this, but the manga did something well. When Sora fights Xaldin, he doesn't kill him, he beats him up to the point Xaldin can't fight anymore, and sends him to tell the Organization to stay out of his way. Admittedly he gets killed by a Vexen Replica, but that's what a hero does, not killing people and not giving it another thought.

 

I don't get the chronic villainy for anyone but Xigbar and Xemnas. The rest either weren't really villains, I mean Demyx doesn't even do anything. At least Luxord let loose a giant Heartless in Port Royal. Axel wasn't any sort of villain even in KH, the first time you fight him it's just for his own amusement, the second he needs to fake his own death to get Sora to leave him alone, and because fighting Sora's fun.

 

*except Xigbar and Luxord, who die with style and a sense of betrayal respectively

 

Then why didnt the org release heartless everywhere til their kh got done? When sora went to TWTNW kh wasnt fully completed. I believe it has to do with: the worlds have returned to their original states. You need to have smone filled with hatred or rage to allow heartless summon.. ( remember at kh days neverland and captain hook? ) But rly i cant blame sora... it ends up that the org was villainious even with hearts...

 

I agree about axel in re:com... hes the best in kindness after roxas and xion, due to his friendship memories. However, he wasnt exactly good.. as everyone else but roxas/xion.

I rly believe that xehanort tried to xehanortify ALL of them ( back at kh bbs-kh1) without succeedin though, with the exception of isa and braig. This still affected them... makin them slightly villainious, some of them less, some of them more.

 

About the << true disposition blah blah...>> its true but just for the first fight.. which wasnt rly a fight . Xemnas told demyx about that 1, im sure he knew it wouldnt work just tried it anyway. The other fights ( including re:com ) were results of the slight villainy AND their hearts. Sora was forced to kill those at re:com cause they tried to kill him when their plan failed. Vexen is so random lol he tried to kill sora only to show marluxia hes worthy... and maybe to make sora his puppet mhm.. ( he said; come to me my slave ) Remember sora? He was calm when he realized axel was testing him. And.. when vexen was disarmed.. sora just said: none of that matters, just put riku back.

Sora was tryin to stop them, but when he realized they were villains, he was angry. He also showed some understandin. When demyx turned his back, sora just let his keyblade and looked at him. ( Who is this kook? He said this in an ironic way cause he thought the org was bad, which it was anyway lol but it wasnt their fault).

 

He also went down to his knees and begged saix to see kairi. After knowin that the org was gatherin hearts.. im sure he assumed that demyx and xaldin ( and the traitors ) attacked him guided by their memories ( they did what their somebodies WOULD do, he thought ) tryin to get a heart earlier. If they wouldnt have hearts, they would DO NOTHING, just wait til they get hearts. Just deep down in them, they didnt want it without knowing why.

 

Also: why i believe they were bad due to xehanort? cause a nobody, if doesnt have a heart, he thinks like his smbody. If he does have 1 though he will act like his smbody! but... their smbodies are good! not that that they showed em much.. but they looked fine. Besides lea the good guy was with em

EDIT: about the kh manga.. telling a bad guy to go back and not do that etc... cmon even if they dont bother with sora they ll still get hearts. NOTHING would change except that they would enjoy their bad actions lol ( thats what we think before kh 3d ) . And along with the hearts they ll get power and http://kh13.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.png. they would also sacrifice millions of ppl for them are ya kiddin?

Edited September 12, 2012 by KingdomKarts_:P

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

Then why didnt the org release heartless everywhere til their kh got done? When sora went to TWTNW kh wasnt fully completed. I believe it has to do with: the worlds have returned to their original states. You need to have smone filled with hatred or rage to allow heartless summon.. ( remember at kh days neverland and captain hook? ) But rly i cant blame sora... it ends up that the org was villainious even with hearts...

The heartless are making use of Dark Corridors, and there has never been any indication that there are limits as to where those can be created. Someone radiating Darkness can summon and control Heartless. And here is the key difference, the Organization ws villainous, thier goal was effectively to kill enough people until they could become complete. But not all the members are villainous, the best example being Demyx, who barely did anything, let alone villainous deeds.

 

I agree about axel in re:com... hes the best in kindness after roxas and xion, due to his friendship memories. However, he wasnt exactly good.. as everyone else but roxas/xion.

Roxas and Xion weren't good, they were naive. All they knew was that they were supposed to kill Heartless so that they could get a heart somehow. They had no major darkness to fight thier light, it affected Axel who dealt with Darkness for the best however.

 

I rly believe that xehanort tried to xehanortify ALL of them ( back at kh bbs-kh1) without succeedin though, with the exception of isa and braig. This still affected them... makin them slightly villainious, some of them less, some of them more.

It was his goal, but my understanding of his methods was to create a bunch of empty vessels, and then when they complete Kingdom Hearts he could fill them with Darkness. He couldn't start the process until Kingdom Hearts was complete,

 

About the << true disposition blah blah...>> its true but just for the first fight.. which wasnt rly a fight . Xemnas told demyx about that 1, im sure he knew it wouldnt work just tried it anyway. The other fights ( including re:com ) were results of the slight villainy AND their hearts. Sora was forced to kill those at re:com cause they tried to kill him when their plan failed. Vexen is so random lol he tried to kill sora only to show marluxia hes worthy... and maybe to make sora his puppet mhm.. ( he said; come to me my slave ) Remember sora? He was calm when he realized axel was testing him. And.. when vexen was disarmed.. sora just said: none of that matters, just put riku back.

I'm ignoring the events of CoM because Sora was not himself, so I will not blame him for any of their deaths, though he might have shown a bit more reaction because all of those (particularly Marluxia and Larxene) were brutal. Demyx was basically told 'Come back with Sora or don't come back at all.'. And no I don't think Xemnas thought it would work, but he didn't really care if he lost Demyx.

 

Sora was tryin to stop them, but when he realized they were villains, he was angry. He also showed some understandin. When demyx turned his back, sora just let his keyblade and looked at him. ( Who is this kook? He said this in an ironic way cause he thought the org was bad, which it was anyway lol but it wasnt their fault).

He was told they were up to no good before he met them, and from the moment he saw them he would try and antagonize them (it didn't work to well against Xigbar)

 

He also went down to his knees and begged saix to see kairi. After knowin that the org was gatherin hearts.. im sure he assumed that demyx and xaldin ( and the traitors ) attacked him guided by their memories ( they did what their somebodies WOULD do, he thought ) tryin to get a heart earlier. If they wouldnt have hearts, they would DO NOTHING, just wait til they get hearts. Just deep down in them, they didnt want it without knowing why.

Why do you think he thought their memories had anything to do with it? And he doesn't care that all they want is completion, he doesn't object to their methods but approve of their motives, he just understand they don't have hearts, and he can therefore kill.

 

Also: why i believe they were bad due to xehanort? cause a nobody, if doesnt have a heart, he thinks like his smbody. If he does have 1 though he will act like his smbody! but... their smbodies are good! not that that they showed em much.. but they looked fine. Besides lea the good guy was with em

A Nobody does not necesarily act just like his Somebody. Case in Point Braig/Xigbar. Braig was a coward who sucked up to Xehanort, Xigbar is laid back and snooping around, willing to do anything for entertainment. And not all their Somebodies are good, at the very least we have Xemnas and Xigbar, the rest we know practically (or actually) nothing about. We know a handful were guards, two were researchers and Isa doesn't talk much.

 

EDIT: about the kh manga.. telling a bad guy to go back and not do that etc... cmon even if they dont bother with sora they ll still get hearts. NOTHING would change except that they would enjoy their bad actions lol ( thats what we think before kh 3d ) . And along with the hearts they ll get power and http://kh13.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.png. they would also sacrifice millions of ppl for them are ya kiddin?

He was saying stop, or I will have to stop you. It was him giving them a chance. He did that in the game, but only with Xemnas. Aftar all the Nobodies he'd killed, he decided Xemnas deserved a second chance. And Sora didn't realize them getting hearts would make them stronger, all he knew was that it would complete them. This is why Ansem the Wise's blowing up of Kingdom Hearts was just assy. Stopping the Nobodies now will not save anyone else, it will only give the remaining Nobodies a heart. Then Sora can beat them

 

[Kishira 2,854]

Sora didn't kill the Nobodies for the crime of being Nobodies. He killed them because they were willing and going to commit countless damage for their own desires. As far as the Organization bar Roxas and Xion was concerned, everyone could go rot if it meant getting their hearts back. Even Demyx, the guy who was only following orders, didn't give a rat's ass about anyone but himself. Find canon that contradicts any of this. Combined with his belief at the time that Nobodies shouldn't exist and couldn't feel, and all the damage they were committing for their personal agendas, how was Sora supposed to act?

 

You also forget that if Sora hadn't "murdered" them all they wouldn't have come back to their original personas at all. Hearts or no, a Nobody is, technically, only a partial existence. Is murdering a shadow of something true murder? Maybe Sora gave a pass to Roxas about having his own existence because 1) he wasn't out intentionally screwing anyone over, just killing Heartless for their hearts, and 2) everyone but him and Xion got their original identities back; Roxas didn't, because he was a special case with him coexisting at the same time as his Somebody.

 

How's the Organization gonna pay for their actions? Axel is by helping out, but what about, say, Zexion? Do you think he feels any regret about what he'd done? There's no implication in 3D or anywhere else he feels any inkling of remorse. Sora kills them because they're hurting others, and their reward is a complete existence. Um, what? Why do they get revived but not Roxas, who hadn't knowingly done anything wrong during his time in the Organization? Why will Axel and the others have to go through all this trouble to bring him back, if it happens at all, when he's the one who deserves it most?

 

In my opinion, the Organization hadn't paid nearly enough.

 

Omigod, I could kiss you for this post. C'mere. (>o3o)>

[Gambler'sApprentice 131]

Sora didn't kill the Nobodies for the crime of being Nobodies. He killed them because they were willing and going to commit countless damage for their own desires. As far as the Organization bar Roxas and Xion was concerned, everyone could go rot if it meant getting their hearts back. Even Demyx, the guy who was only following orders, didn't give a rat's ass about anyone but himself. Find canon that contradicts any of this. Combined with his belief at the time that Nobodies shouldn't exist and couldn't feel, and all the damage they were committing for their personal agendas, how was Sora supposed to act?

The first thing I have to say is you are entirely right as to the Organization. The Organization's mission was to commit genocide for their own ends, and even if everyone who got turned into a Heartless and was subsequently defeated returned to normal when Kingdom Hearts was completed, what they did would still be wrong. Even if the Organization was not responsible for releasing Heartless onto other worlds they still stood by and let innocents pay for what they wanted. If they actively released the Heartless this is still worse. However one must bare in mind two things, the Nobodies' moral codes are damaged when they have no sense of guilt to tell right from wrong, and second the individuals must be judged for their own crimes, not the crimes of the collective. In Kingdom Hearts Sora leads to the deaths/eternal imprisonment of 7 individuals, Clayton, Jafar, Oogie Boogie, Ursula, Maleficent, and Ansem, Seeker of Darkness. Clayton tries to kill and/or imprison innocent individuals, and even then, Sora is not directly responsible for his death. Jafar again seeks to kill and imprison various innocents, as well as creating Heartless and seeking god-like power, Sora does not kill him, but employs his arrogance to contain him. Oogie Boogie seeks to control the Heartless and control them to battle his enemies and revenge himself, Sora tries to prevent this, and has to kill him, only to demonstrate he had so much darkness within him to control inanimate objects. Ursula seeks again to revenge herself upon those she sees as having wronged her, and utilized Heartless to further her own ends, acquiring phenomenal power, and in the end she too falls. Sora fights Maleficent, but in the end it is the Darkness within her own heart that dooms her, and Ansem's ignorance of the true nature of Kingdom Hearts leads to his own end. Now while the crimes the Nobodies commit are by far worse, they are also outside the world's natural order. To explain, regardless of what happens on other worlds, Clayton, Jafar, Oogie Boogie, and Ursula would be a threat to the inhabitants of their world. Maleficent and Ansem would threaten every world however, as their goal was to rule all the worlds in Darkness. The Nobodies were not part of the natural order, they are not even natural. Therefore there is no need to eliminate them to protect any individual world, and their goal was to acquire hearts for themselves. Here is where the most important part comes into play. They do not need Kingdom Hearts to be completed in order to acquire hearts, and Sora already knew this. Ignoring the revelation they have hearts from Dream Drop Distance, we are informed three separate times that hearts can be created, in Halloween Town from KH Dr. Finklestein creates a fully functional heart, it is lost, but it worked. When Sora meets Pinnochio and discovers this puppet has gained a heart of its own, it showed an ability to grow a heart. Therefore when Yen Sid meets Sora and explains that the Nobodies have no hearts his response should have been either that they can grow them, or that they can be taken to Dr. Finklestein and he can give each of them a heart. But let us say for the sake of argument, Sora's memory is muddled from his year-long sleep, and he can't look in Jiminy's Journal because it is effectively blank. Sora visits Haloween Town again, and when he finds Dr. Finklestein's robot and defeats it, Dr. Finklestein comments on how he can create hearts, he installed one into Sally. Right then Sora should have had a flash of realization and gone to see Yen Sid and make a truce with the Nobodies, those who want hearts can go get them from Dr. Finklestein. Now Xemnas wouldn't care, he wants to reunite with Kingdom Hearts, and Xaldin disdains the hearts emotional weaknesses, and Xigbar... who knows what he'd do. But Saîx definitely would, as might Luxord and Demyx. Then Sora can combat the remaining Nobodies confident that their motives are as unsound as their methods. And even then, it should be a difficult task, because even if he is confident Nobodies can not feel emotion, almost everyone of them displayed pain. Xaldin is ripped apart by the wind, Demyx boils alive, etc. And if you don't think they have emotion Luxord's sense of berayal and Saïx's desire for a heart should trigger alarm bells. Xigbar fades with a smile on his face, so I can't blame Sora for not thinking he caused him pain. But worst of all, when he finally consciders offering a second chance to someone, it isn't Demyx, who is innocent on ground of lazyness, Xaldin with his emotional scarring, or Saïx with his genuine yearning for completion, it is Xemnas, surrounded by the hearts of the people he decided were less important then his own plans.

 

You also forget that if Sora hadn't "murdered" them all they wouldn't have come back to their original personas at all. Hearts or no, a Nobody is, technically, only a partial existence. Is murdering a shadow of something true murder? Maybe Sora gave a pass to Roxas about having his own existence because 1) he wasn't out intentionally screwing anyone over, just killing Heartless for their hearts, and 2) everyone but him and Xion got their original identities back; Roxas didn't, because he was a special case with him coexisting at the same time as his Somebody.

Sora doesn't get credit for restoring them unintentionally. He did not know that his actions would restore them, as far as he knew he was ending them. And Sora does not getthe right to decide that someone's partial existence, with the hope of complete existence, is inferior to complete absence. Furthermore he isn't killing a shadow of something/someone a shadow cannot exist without a source, they are wholly dependent on another source. The Nobodies are sentient, intellegent lifeforms, with their own desires, motivations, and potential for growth. You do not get to decide that they do not have a right to explore those possibilities simply because they are not natural life forms. And Sora does not know anything about Xion, or what Roxas did in the Organization. For all e knows Roxas could have been tagging people to be consumed by Heartless, but he says he has the right to an existence independent of his Somebody, that he should not define himself as Sora's Nobody, but rather Roxas. Therefore to kill the Nobodies because thier existence is dependent on the absence of thier Somebodies is contradictory.

 

How's the Organization gonna pay for their actions? Axel is by helping out, but what about, say, Zexion? Do you think he feels any regret about what he'd done? There's no implication in 3D or anywhere else he feels any inkling of remorse. Sora kills them because they're hurting others, and their reward is a complete existence. Um, what? Why do they get revived but not Roxas, who hadn't knowingly done anything wrong during his time in the Organization? Why will Axel and the others have to go through all this trouble to bring him back, if it happens at all, when he's the one who deserves it most?

Those without hearts can not feel guilt. Do I believe Zexion objects to what he did, no. Ienzo might. Maybe he will have to live with the knowledge that he was willing to let millions suffer just so he could feel better. Maybe he will object to what he's done and try to undo some of the wrong. And since 3Ds has about 15 seconds with him on screen, during which time he's worried about the people he knows who might not survive, I think it might be a bit early to start a judgment. They do not get rewarded for being terrible people (those that were). They were lucky that Sora or Roxas beat their Heartless, that's it. A reward is something you get for your actions, they were bad. They came back as Somebodies. theses two facts are completely unrelated. Roxas and Xion came back because they made a sacrifice (whether willingly or otherwise), and it is no sacrifice if nothing is lost. If Xion were to disappear only to come back more complete, then she did not lose anything, the same applies to Roxas. They are tragic characters, and tragic characters have to have loss.

 

In my opinion, the Organization hadn't paid nearly enough.

I invite you to look at the death scenes for the Organization members and tell me how they do not qualify as torture. Yes, it is not justice until they feel the pain of every life they harmed, but without knowledge of what each person has done, it is not just to condemn them all.

 

[KingdomKarts_:P 14]

You cant know what sora was exactly thinking, neither can I but im assuming things which make sense ( your things make sense too, but if they are true some thoughts i have for kh which close plotholes you rly hvent considered would fall apart ). I cant say youre wrong, but since nthng is confirmed in soras head i wanna believe he thought these things. If NOT ILL HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU

But ill never believe that sora wanted to kill them. The phrase: any member who d like to be next is just a phrase of anger. Sora just thought, oh cm on enough alrdy! And about the things ya said about pinocchio that he can grow a heart. Sora truly believed yen sids words as i did . And IM SURE he thought smthing after learnin that the org fcks up ppl to get hearts and demyx attacked him. Hes not an idiot ( mhm... ). Also, he was just fine with axel when he saw how axel was acting. So ya cant say that sora was: oh a nobody, ill kill it! Sora was: oh a nobody... will he attack me? prolly yes...

When ya dont have a heart ( lets suppose they didnt ) you CANT be villainious no matter what you remember. you cant be good either you just are neutral with a good mind. Youre goal should be 1, gettin a heart. I love kh 3d that says the org had hearts, it so made my day

 

About saix: he is xehanortified. however he is as good as axel thats why he says: where is my heart. that was his real self responding. sora simply thought he was acting

He had to kill them http://kh13.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.png if he would ONLY defeat the heartless without touching them, they would release heartless again smtime later anyway ... Besides when smone attacks you and makes barriers so ya cant escape, you are kinda panicked huh

 

Oh and.. i said above: youre goal should be 1, gettin a heart. If in that goal it REQUIRES to do bad things, it doesnt mean youre bad since youre supposed to feel nothing. however the org betrayals.. traitors, random fights ( dont tell me the 2ND fight with demyx was normal cause xemnas DID care about losin demyx... hes a vessel, doesnt matter if hes lazy, since he d be nortified) those all are signs that smthing was wrong.

 

EVEN IF the members were good ( example: they d explain sora they needed hearts... ) sora wouldnt let them commit a genocide. Xehanort is responsible for this mess anyway, but it doesnt matter.

 

Pfft many edits lol: ya said.. itd give the remainin nobodies a heart? i dont get that.. common nobodies cant get a heart rly... they are nothin but empty shells destined to return to darkness as yen sid said. when he referred to the org though he said BUT... the org CAN TELL right from wrong ya need a mind for this not a heart. ya would need a heart too actually ( like in our world ) but they REMEMBERED so...

Edited September 13, 2012 by KingdomKarts_:P