KH3D DDD, BBS's Beta?

[hatok 6,413]

I'm basing this train of thought on an idle comment during the Hellfire Comms KHathon, where he said DDD felt like that.. and it got me thinking... it really does. It feels like a less polished DDD. It has the commands, but they can't be leveled up or melded, and they don't have the action commands like in BBS. Everybody has noticed this game's lack of polish.

Then I remembered something:

Anybody else remember how BBS started off as a story starring Sora? Now I'm starting to wonder if that was retooled for use as DDD. Maybe they took the general ideas, as seen in the original trailers for DDD, and evolved them into this?

The more I think about it... the more likely it seems...

It would also make sense considering DDD was made 'suddenly'

Thoughts...?

[KissyFace 134]

Eh, DDD has a better lock on system, and it is generally more polished. Also, Melding=/=better system. Personally, I like the idea of a Crystarium-esque link board more, but my problem with it is that actually expanding it feels rather slow.

 

Also, DDD has better balance. Sure, it has flowmotion battle, but it's less broken than Shotlock. Also, less pseudo difficulty, and dodge roll is more balanced.

 

For me, it's the opposite. BBS was a beta version of DDD.

[Sora'sMum 352]

Yeah I agree on some parts. I preferred the command melding system, which also granted you knew abilities. Now I don't know where I'm getting my abilities from half the time, just that some dream eaters grant certain abilities via their 'board,' but it's hard to keep track of, and when you swap out with new dream eaters you lose a lot of stats that may or may not be replaced. I know this adds a new layer of difficulty and strategy, but I don't like it.

And I can't express my hatred of the drop system during boss battles with killing someone!!! SO MANY TIMES I have had to redo boss battle, hard boss battles. It's like a massive kick in the nuts. The drop system should deactivate during boss battles.

[hatok 6,413]

Also, DDD has better balance. Sure, it has flowmotion battle, but it's less broken than Shotlock. Also, less pseudo difficulty, and dodge roll is more balanced.

 

BWAHAHA!

Oh man... this is the most hilarious thing I've read all morning...

Oh man... I need to got to bed...

But seriously... DDD... balanced?

heh

[RikuVazquez 108]

I'm don't want to start something but I have something to say....GET OVER IT! NO GAME IS PERFECT!

[Noby Raghavan 168]

Eh, I think Nomura used this game for the sole purpose of testing flowmotion and the other newer features. I believe by the next game, the platforming, command system, and flowmotion will be polished to make for an epic game. =D

[Elijah Gravenhorst 480]

BBS Was supposed to be about sora?! What?! When was this?!

[Spectrum of Life 188]

"Beta" wouldn't really be the term I would use for it, especially if DDD was based story wise off of materials from pre-production. Birth By Sleep was in development since about '05-'06, and the first real footage relating to it is from 2007 (KH2FM, which was actually made with the help of members of that development team.) If Sora was ever meant to be involved, he was pushed to the sidelines very early on. One has to remember that even after being shifted to the PSP, Birth By Sleep had a 2-3 year development cycle.

I think the lack of "Polish" in DDD is more because of a rushed time-frame. TGS last year was the first time we got to see real footage of the game, and the earliest trailers were made during BBSFM's development , and only gets referenced once or twice in the game, and unlike "Deep Dive" and "Fate of the Unknown", the references are almost afterthoughts (Except for the Destiny Islands bit at the beginning.) I can't imagine the game's development being much more than 18 months.

[Cactuar 21]

DDD was obviously something made just becauso of the 3DS with some rush, but Riku's development and Joshua's lines make it worthy, if they can work that fast with fair results, maybe with more time to make something better, Kingdom Hearts 3 won't take that long to be released (I would really not mind if they just forget about Versus XIII to work on it, this 13 is the new Diablo III and soon will make Team Kingdom Hearts busy for a decade).

Re:Coded also used something similar do BBS right? Maybe they were thesting things around with that too.

[hatok 6,413]

I'm don't want to start something but I have something to say....GET OVER IT! NO GAME IS PERFECT!

 

http://kh13.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/smiley-neutral.png

BBS Was supposed to be about sora?! What?! When was this?!

 

Bleh, I have to leave right now, but I'll look up the interview later. Basically, Nomura said that the original plans for BBS had Sora as the main character, but they scrapped the idea.

[KissyFace 134]

BWAHAHA!

Oh man... this is the most hilarious thing I've read all morning...

Oh man... I need to got to bed...

But seriously... DDD... balanced?

heh

 

Definitely more balanced than BBS. In fact, I'm stating objectively that DDD is far more balanced than BBS.

[hatok 6,413]

Definitely more balanced than BBS. In fact, I'm stating objectively that DDD is far more balanced than BBS.

 

Is it because it's your objective (seewatididthar) is to be objectively wrong? DDD has atrocious balancing. The bosses are pushovers. The regular enemies can spma stop on you, dealing damage to you with giving you any way to fight back, all the way to the grave.

BBS had some moments; the iron imprisoner is kind of wonky, and the secret bosses are literally regular bosses with a damage boost.

But that pales in comparison to the bad choices made in DDD.

[KissyFace 134]

Is it because it's your objective (seewatididthar) is to be objectively wrong? DDD has atrocious balancing. The bosses are pushovers. The regular enemies can spma stop on you, dealing damage to you with giving you any way to fight back, all the way to the grave.

BBS had some moments; the iron imprisoner is kind of wonky, and the secret bosses are literally regular bosses with a damage boost.

But that pales in comparison to the bad choices made in DDD.

 

Tell me you played on Critical, as DDD Proud mode wasn't extremely challenging compared to Critical. I found the bosses to be far more difficult than in BBS. Everything was just so easy in BBS aside from maybe Mysterious Figure, and the very beginning of Terra's story.

 

I mean, Shotlocks with major damage and invincibility? Equipping as much Cure as you want with Ven and Aqua having infinite dodge roll invincibility? Easily having end-game commands before reaching endgame? Just awful balance. Hell, even Second Chance and Once More are extra easy to get in BBS.

Edited August 19, 2012 by KissyFace

[hatok 6,413]

Tell me you played on Critical, as DDD Proud mode wasn't extremely challenging compared to Critical. I found the bosses to be far more difficult than in BBS. Everything was just so easy in BBS aside from maybe Mysterious Figure, and the very beginning of Terra's story.

 

I mean, Shotlocks with major damage and invincibility? Equipping as much Cure as you want with Ven and Aqua having infinite dodge roll invincibility? Easily having end-game commands before reaching endgame? Just awful balance. Hell, even Second Chance and Once More are extra easy to get in BBS.

 

It is always better to have imbalance in favour of the player. DDD's imbalance comes from taking away most of the advantages a player character normally has over hoards of enemies; the ability to make enemies flinch, the ability to have invincibility frames, and unique attacks. Dream Eaters don't flinch unless there's a blue moon out, and make use of abilities clearly designed for use by players; fast moves that are difficult to doge if you see them coming, impossible otherwise, and DDD has a terrible camera that ensures this. and yet these player designed moves can be spammed by multiple enemies, and will ALWAYS cause you to flinch. If two enemies hit you with baloonga, it'll knock you straight into the air, and probably take you down to 1 HP. If you have Once More. See, Once More and Second chance have become ESSENTIAL KH abilities. KH is a game that usually knows it is imperfect, and allows you to take a lot of hits, while letting you heal frequently, Once More and Second chance let you avoid otherwise cheap deaths that would unfairly drain all of your HP. Making them rare is silly.

Now, bosses aren't uniformly easy in DDD, but I'd say the bulk of them are. The biggest challenge for me was definitely Ansem 2, who is an overall badly designed boss that I don't have the time to go into detail about. Anyways, DDD bosses are harder than BBS bosses in a lot of cases... but they are nowhere near as cheap as the generic Dream Eaters. It's one thing to have a system that allows players to grind up powerful abilities, it's entirely another to give your enemies your advantages, with seemingly no thought put into the balancing whatsoever.

Just gotta say though, the BULK of DDD's cheap difficulty stems from its camera. It's FAR too close to the main character, making snipes from the side and back not just common, but practically expected.

BBS gives you a lot of power and options, yes, but the Unversed can be tricky in a more or less fair way. At least, fair in comparison to DDD, the least fair game in the series.

[Peter Junior 0]

Is it because it's your objective (seewatididthar) is to be objectively wrong? DDD has atrocious balancing. The bosses are pushovers. The regular enemies can spma stop on you, dealing damage to you with giving you any way to fight back, all the way to the grave.

BBS had some moments; the iron imprisoner is kind of wonky, and the secret bosses are literally regular bosses with a damage boost.

But that pales in comparison to the bad choices made in DDD.

 

You clearly haven't played DDD on Critical Mode. If you had, you would know that you have to be nearly double the combat lv of the world if you wanna stand a chance against the boss and tbf ive only been Stopped by a normal dream eater a few times... Edited August 19, 2012 by Peter Junior

[KissyFace 134]

It is always better to have imbalance in favour of the player. DDD's imbalance comes from taking away most of the advantages a player character normally has over hoards of enemies; the ability to make enemies flinch, the ability to have invincibility frames, and unique attacks. Dream Eaters don't flinch unless there's a blue moon out, and make use of abilities clearly designed for use by players; fast moves that are difficult to doge if you see them coming, impossible otherwise, and DDD has a terrible camera that ensures this. and yet these player designed moves can be spammed by multiple enemies, and will ALWAYS cause you to flinch. If two enemies hit you with baloonga, it'll knock you straight into the air, and probably take you down to 1 HP. If you have Once More. See, Once More and Second chance have become ESSENTIAL KH abilities. KH is a game that usually knows it is imperfect, and allows you to take a lot of hits, while letting you heal frequently, Once More and Second chance let you avoid otherwise cheap deaths that would unfairly drain all of your HP. Making them rare is silly.

Now, bosses aren't uniformly easy in DDD, but I'd say the bulk of them are. The biggest challenge for me was definitely Ansem 2, who is an overall badly designed boss that I don't have the time to go into detail about. Anyways, DDD bosses are harder than BBS bosses in a lot of cases... but they are nowhere near as cheap as the generic Dream Eaters. It's one thing to have a system that allows players to grind up powerful abilities, it's entirely another to give your enemies your advantages, with seemingly no thought put into the balancing whatsoever.

Just gotta say though, the BULK of DDD's cheap difficulty stems from its camera. It's FAR too close to the main character, making snipes from the side and back not just common, but practically expected.

BBS gives you a lot of power and options, yes, but the Unversed can be tricky in a more or less fair way. At least, fair in comparison to DDD, the least fair game in the series.

 

Let me stop you where you say that the game takes away the advantages the character has over hordes of enemies with two words: Flow motion. Second, most of the smaller enemies are stunned when you hit them, and the larger enemies are usually more guilty of not flinching, which is understandable, and was the case in BBS. Though enemies still flinch far less in DDD than BBS, admittedly. And enemies have been able to attack faster then you could react for a while, and this is rather common in action games. Which is why preemptive measures and strategies are useful. Also, if enemies had a ton of flinching capability, it would lessen the balance of Flowmoiton.

 

As for Second Chance and Once more being essential KH abilities, I don't personally see the problem in this. They aren't really all that essential until you get to Proud and Critical mode. If it such a problem, the game provides Standard and Beginner mode. Also, you could probably advance through DDD without them if you were so skilled. Take Critical mode for instance, the game calls it the ultimate test of your action skills. If you aren't skilled at the game, you won't beat Critical mode. It's meant to be difficult, and SC and OM are there for players not skilled enough to beat the game without it.

 

The camera however, is a legitimate complaint, as it makes some attacks harder to see coming. Though I personally haven't had much problem with the camera. I think the only problem I ever had with it was fighting the secret boss when he jumps from the building.

[Hyperion 144]

 

Just gotta say though, the BULK of DDD's cheap difficulty stems from its camera. It's FAR too close to the main character, making snipes from the side and back not just common, but practically expected.

 

 

You know you can buy the circle pad pro to fix that, I heard it lets you control the camera

[Kirux 1,224]

Omg isn't this thread supposed to be about the theory that DreamDrop was the Beta for BBS and not a pissing match over how balanced DreamDrop may or may not be in comparison to other games in the franchise? If there's any proof to this Beta theory, I would love to read about it. It would be a very interesting bit of trivia to know, imho.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Kirux

[hatok 6,413]

You clearly haven't played DDD on Critical Mode. If you had, you would know that you have to be nearly double the combat lv of the world if you wanna stand a chance against the boss and tbf ive only been Stopped by a normal dream eater a few times...

 

I've been finding Critical Mode quite easy, actually, because I actually know what I'm doing this time.

Let me stop you where you say that the game takes away the advantages the character has over hordes of enemies with two words: Flow motion. Second, most of the smaller enemies are stunned when you hit them, and the larger enemies are usually more guilty of not flinching, which is understandable, and was the case in BBS. Though enemies still flinch far less in DDD than BBS, admittedly. And enemies have been able to attack faster then you could react for a while, and this is rather common in action games. Which is why preemptive measures and strategies are useful. Also, if enemies had a ton of flinching capability, it would lessen the balance of Flowmoiton.

 

As for Second Chance and Once more being essential KH abilities, I don't personally see the problem in this. They aren't really all that essential until you get to Proud and Critical mode. If it such a problem, the game provides Standard and Beginner mode. Also, you could probably advance through DDD without them if you were so skilled. Take Critical mode for instance, the game calls it the ultimate test of your action skills. If you aren't skilled at the game, you won't beat Critical mode. It's meant to be difficult, and SC and OM are there for players not skilled enough to beat the game without it.

 

The camera however, is a legitimate complaint, as it makes some attacks harder to see coming. Though I personally haven't had much problem with the camera. I think the only problem I ever had with it was fighting the secret boss when he jumps from the building.

 

Flowmotion is all well and good early on, but becomes more and more useless as the game goes on. In previous KH's, enemies would flinch to your regular attacks, creating a nice sense of impact. BBS already started limiting the flinching, but in DDD flinching is ridiculously rare, which leads to problems when you attack an enemy, and they simply attack you back DURING your attack. That's not a test of action skills, that's a test of luck. You need to HOPE your enemies flinch, because otherwise you'll get hit by an instantly casted baloonga or sparkga.

On the topic of attacks that are too fast to react to being common in action games... no.... they're really not. If an action game is GOOD, it will have tells and lead ups, or at least patterns to attacks, things that let skilled players deal with the attacks once they learn what's coming. Dream Eaters are very sporadic and random, and can flail in from off the screen. Additionally, a lot of actions games provide safeguards that ensure you don't unfairly take damage during an attack; things like giving invincibility frames, or letting you dodge or guard out of an attack.

The original KHs had great enemies that had various attacks that had tells, and even if you took a cheap shot, it wasn't that big of a deal. KH1 and 2 knew they weren't perfect, so they didn't demand perfection from the player. Later KH games don't do this.

You know you can buy the circle pad pro to fix that, I heard it lets you control the camera

 

Except it costs 25 bucks and I have my doubts about how much it could really be improved considering the setup of the 3DS

[Pyrrha Nikos 1,162]

What is Beta? Sorry I had to ask.

[Hyperion 144]

What is Beta? Sorry I had to ask.

 

A beta is a early version of a game that is sometimes released to the public so we can test it, and provide feedback, but not many games do that. Think of it as a rough draft to your essay

[Pyrrha Nikos 1,162]

okay that makes sense now. Thanks

[Hyperion 144]

okay that makes sense now. Thanks

 

Your welcome