KH3D How Xehanort "**** ********" *Spoilers*

[keystrike 145]

As stated in the game it began with his heartless. He was an existence of solely a heart so he could time travel but he could only go one direction and he needed to exist at that time he was traveling to so ultimately he had to get a younger incarnation of himself to time travel forward even though he didn't even get rid of his body... now, does this really make sense? Lets be honest, no it doesn't. Its nearly worse than math formulas that have to be memorized. Anybody might say "Its a time travel story, do they ever make sense?" but being the stubborn fan that I am, I had to defend the plot. Fortunately even math formulas some times make sense, and this formula is no exception.

 

Back when I first heard of "the mysterious figures" affiliation to time, I freaked out. "The series is struggling with convolution already how will it handle time travel!" Eventually I came up with a satisfying yet incorrect theory as how he may time travel with the power of dreams. The theory was that if we can traverse entering reality and dreams and if we can traverse time in the dreams, then we can ultimately traverse time in reality. And of course I expanded on to kingdom hearts and the seven sleeping worlds, but that is beyond the point. As it turns out, I was in the ball park. Although not as explicitly stated as the giving up your body part and traveling in only one direction, Ansem SoD and YMX definitely traveled through time via dreams. In this context I think these "rules" just may be starting to make sense.

 

Why don't we start off with the big picture and then move down to why each rule makes sense.

 

Just as Sora and Riku allegedly time traveled according to Xigbar and Goofy (and not disagreed to by Yen Sid) Ansem SoD traveled back in time to when his original self was still just a boy. Sora and Riku both had bodies unlike the robed Ansem, but Xigbar refers to both incidents as time travel. Sora and Riku were also reliving the experiences in contrast to Ansem SoD who simply witnessed and interfered with that past. It makes sense to immediately write off Sora and Riku's experiences with destiny islands as time travel, but there's no way the writers could repeatedly make such a mistake and then have Nomura not catch it. Instead might we simply qualify it a less complete type of time travel. So maybe Xehanort's Heartless did time travel in the same way that Sora and Riku did, but by being solely a wandering heart he was able to more literally go back to a specific time.

 

Lets continue on this aside to develop and understand this "what if." That would mean that Xehanort dreamed himself into the past. He could dream up that time because he already existed there! Assuming that dreams were the mode of time travel, it would appear that we didn't even need to be told that you must have a version of yourself waiting at the destination.

 

"But wait a second, in that case he didn't even time travel. And YMX definitely wasn't a dream the whole time because he was in the real world that never was."

 

I guess that's one of the main points I have been sort of tiptoeing around, but you caught me, I don't believe he time traveled in the same sense that we have been assuming he has been. Let me explain a bit further.

 

In reality it is a combination of both traversing time in dreams and dreams in time. The young Xehanort that we encounter in 3D for most of the time is a figment of Xehanort's memory. So it makes sense that the actual YMX wouldn't have any memory of it, because it never really happened! Two rules down, and uhh... some more to go! However, because his heart and the dream of his heart weren't entirely independent, an impression was left when the dream of his heart allegedly returned to his own time. Ultimately, these two timelines resonated with each other to some arbitrary extent creating a dual reality. What made this impression even more powerful was the fact that YMX was did transcend the realm of dreams to enter reality. When this happened the timer clicked on and YMX and the others could only exist due to powerful time magic coupled with that world's odd existence. After that magic is all used up, its only natural that one must return to his own time. Check rule number three. Put it together as you will, but it makes sense that this is how it worked out.

 

Take a look at the graphic below. It summarizes up most of this last part not quite to the events of KH3D. (and sorry in advance for the bad grammar, random periods in sentences, and sucky arrows)

 

If I'm not mistaken we still have two rules left: Upon arriving at destination one can only move forward, and one must discard the body in order to time travel. The first rule here is quite natural and intuitive in any sense so I don't think any further discussion is necessary. As for discarding the body, lets go back to where this discussion began when I pointed out XH's time travel in contrast to Sora and Riku's. A number of distinctions have already been pointed out concerning time in the realm of nothing. There it loses nearly all meaning. This is where the body exists after abandoning the body so when with the body it must still be tied to regular flowing time-even in dreams. In addition to this, the bodily form must be dreamed up which allows one to observe from the outside and intervene with this alternate, yet not entirely independent timeline.

 

And that is how Xehanort "time traveled."

 

TLDR;

• XH did not really time travel just as Sora and Riku did not really time travel.
• The young Xehanort Sora and Riku faced in kh3d was actually a figment of XH's memories/dreams.
• A distinction could be made between what actually happened in the time and what happened in certain people's dreams at different times.
• XH's dream of YMX resonated with the real YMX to influence him. This resonance was in part acheive by his being realized in the real timeline.
• In other words a sort of dual reality was achieved in the two timelines/realities overlapping or resonating.

Edited August 10, 2012 by keystrike

[Shana09 5,769]

YMX - "I am Xehanort from the most distant past"

[TerraRedeemed 255]

so what's 2+2?

 

Honestly Im more concerned about the seemingly concrete beings that 'Ansem' and Xemnas have reincarnated into. If Nomura wants to add a time element in then fine, i love time anyways.

[keystrike 145]

YMX - "I am Xehanort from the most distant past"

 

But how would he know he isn't real?

 

so what's 2+2?

 

Honestly Im more concerned about the seemingly concrete beings that 'Ansem' and Xemnas have reincarnated into. If Nomura wants to add a time element in then fine, i love time anyways.

 

Four, but I don't quite see where this analogy is supposed to take me. If your referring to the matter of intuition with math, addition with the symbol "2" is much more of a matter of definition than not. Simple definition is exactly what I'm trying to show what this shouldn't be. Something much more mysterious such as numbers raised to complex exponents (i.e. 3^sqrt(-1)) can make sense and so can time travel in KH. This whole post was pretty much addressing one mystery which if understood could help explain others such as the situation with Ansem and Xemnas.

 

I'm fine with adding the element of time also, just as long as its not being shoved down our throats so we have to accept it weather it makes sense to the plot or not.

[Shana09 5,769]

But how would he know he isn't real?

 

 

Because when Sora entered TWTNW he went through some events (as a dream) of the past. Like Ansem (the one in the brown robe) telling YMX about Master Xehanorts plans and giving him the ability to time travel like Ansem himself.

 

Also because he told us how he can time travel and the restrictions it has.

 

Also the battle in KHBBS WAS cannon, so it can't be a dreamed up version of YMX from MX.

[Elijah Gravenhorst 480]

Wow You spent alot of time thinking about this.

[keystrike 145]

Because when Sora entered TWTNW he went through some events (as a dream) of the past. Like Ansem (the one in the brown robe) telling YMX about Master Xehanorts plans and giving him the ability to time travel like Ansem himself.

I might not be entirely following you on this, but how would YMX still be able to differentiate this from what may be a real past.

 

Also because he told us how he can time travel and the restrictions it has.

Once again, this doesn't seem to prove much. His word is not reliable in the situation of doubt and it is entirely possible that he doesn't understand that this is how it works, so when we take his word we aren't getting the full picture (once again under the assumption this theory is correct).

 

Also the battle in KHBBS WAS cannon, so it can't be a dreamed up version of YMX from MX.

 

I don't believe it was ever said that it was cannon, but rather just "possible." I think this was talked about in one of the interviews aside from the ultimania, but possible and cannon in the case of your argument are really equivalent. Anyways, It was Xehanort's Heartless that dreamed him up, not MX. The battle could be explained by him in a way jumping out of the dream world and trying to maintain his existence with the use of time magic.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but at this point I'm not convinced. Thinking the opposite thing as you, its really hard to interpret your reasons for from such and such evidence.

 

Wow You spent alot of time thinking about this.

 

A couple days actually (but by no means straight).

Edited August 10, 2012 by keystrike

[Shana09 5,769]

I might not be entirely following you on this, but how would YMX still be able to differentiate this from what may be a real past.

 

 

 

Once again, this doesn't seem to prove much. His word is not reliable in the situation of doubt and it is entirely possible that he doesn't understand that this is how it works, so when we take his word we aren't getting the full picture (once again under the assumption this theory is correct).

 

 

 

I don't believe it was ever said that it was cannon, but rather just "possible." I think this was talked about in one of the interviews aside from the ultimania, but possible and cannon in the case of your argument are really equivalent. Anyways, It was Xehanort's Heartless that dreamed him up, not MX. The battle could be explained by him in a way jumping out of the dream world and trying to maintain his existence with the use of time magic.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but at this point I'm not convinced. Thinking the opposite thing as you, its really hard to interpret your reasons for from such and such evidence.

 

 

1) I don't think I am following u either...

 

2) Alright, until proven otherwise, but look at #3 answer.

 

3) It was considered cannon by Nomura in an interview. You can look around and find it. It really destroys this theory completely.

[Dio Brando 5,810]

I think I begin to understand .....something.

but GOD....the KH series became sooooooooo complicated....even more complicated than Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy....but y'know what....even when it gives me a headache everytime a try to make a theory( and I made countless theories in my mind to the point I forgot about some of them)...It's really a fun and exciting experience for me that keeps me thinking about the series more and more....making me love it soo much than before(mm did anyone smell grammar error in my post???)

 

that's one of many things that made me a Kingdom Hearts Royal Fanboy

[xion26 20]

i like the concept of the dreams and time travel i think they should keep that in the next game but still takes place in all the different realms

[keystrike 145]

1) I don't think I am following u either...

 

2) Alright, until proven otherwise, but look at #3 answer.

 

3) It was considered cannon by Nomura in an interview. You can look around and find it. It really destroys this theory completely.

 

1) From his perspective, he wouldn't be able to know that his past isn't really real. Consider the possibility that the world we live in isn't really "real." We can't tell because we don't have the perspective to see it. (Once again this is under the assumption this theory is correct). Also that first response was specifically toward Xehanorts explanation of how it happened. Were you were trying to point something else out?

2) Ok

3) I checked all the interviews since the games release and Nomura only said this:

— I see. Young Xehanort himself is still in Destiny Islands and isn’t able to wield a Keyblade yet.

Nomura: Right. Even when he appeared as an additional boss in Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep Final Mix, he wasn’t using a Keyblade.

 

Weather he considered it cannon or simply "possible" in this statement is a matter of opinion, so I wouldn't jump to conclusions that this truly happened. Until a reference of the battle is made in game or if it is explicitly stated I personally wouldn't consider it cannon. Either way it should still debunk my theory if your reasoning is correct so let me get on to defending my theory.

 

When you look at YMX in the secret boss fight his appearance is very unstable. This is because the sort of timeline he exists in (simmilar to how Nobodies only truly exist in the realm of nothing) can only overlap so much. The situation is annalogous to Sora and Riku's adventure in the realm of sleep if Sora is considered to be exploring the real (sleeping) worlds and Riku is considered to be exploring the dreams of the (sleeping) worlds. The two realities are seperate yet they overlap to some extent.

 

Now, with all sincerity, why would this fight being cannon completely destroy this theory?

 

Edit: Did anyone else even consider the idea that time travel was connected to dreams when playing through the game?

Edited August 11, 2012 by keystrike

[Shana09 5,769]

1) From his perspective, he wouldn't be able to know that his past isn't really real. Consider the possibility that the world we live in isn't really "real." We can't tell because we don't have the perspective to see it. (Once again this is under the assumption this theory is correct). Also that first response was specifically toward Xehanorts explanation of how it happened. Were you were trying to point something else out?

2) Ok

3) I checked all the interviews since the games release and Nomura only said this:

 

Weather he considered it cannon or simply "possible" in this statement is a matter of opinion, so I wouldn't jump to conclusions that this truly happened. Until a reference of the battle is made in game or if it is explicitly stated I personally wouldn't consider it cannon. Either way it should still debunk my theory if your reasoning is correct so let me get on to defending my theory.

 

When you look at YMX in the secret boss fight his appearance is very unstable. This is because the sort of timeline he exists in (simmilar to how Nobodies only truly exist in the realm of nothing) can only overlap so much. The situation is annalogous to Sora and Riku's adventure in the realm of sleep if Sora is considered to be exploring the real (sleeping) worlds and Riku is considered to be exploring the dreams of the (sleeping) worlds. The two realities are seperate yet they overlap to some extent.

 

Now, with all sincerity, why would this fight being cannon completely destroy this theory?

 

Edit: Did anyone else even consider the idea that time travel was connected to dreams when playing through the game?

 

I found this in the wiki:

Young Xehanort is an optional boss in the North American, PAL, and Final Mix versions of Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep. His boss battle is unlocked when the player defeats Vanitas Remnant, then returns to the Land of Departure on a save file in which it is still accessible. Despite this odd situation, his scene is within canon^[1], and is considered to occur at the save file's point in the story. Defeating Xehanort grants the player a unique Keyblade named "No Name", but he can be refought by leaving Land of Departure and then returning.

 

[keystrike 145]

I found this in the wiki:

Young Xehanort is an optional boss in the North American, PAL, and Final Mix versions of Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep. His boss battle is unlocked when the player defeats Vanitas Remnant, then returns to the Land of Departure on a save file in which it is still accessible. Despite this odd situation, his scene is within canon^[1], and is considered to occur at the save file's point in the story. Defeating Xehanort grants the player a unique Keyblade named "No Name", but he can be refought by leaving Land of Departure and then returning.

I don't think your really getting what I'm saying. It was entirely irrelevant weather or not the fight was cannon or, as I recall it being put, simply "possible." Its a discussion in and of itself whether it really happened. Also (and in this rare occasion I do find caps necesary) WIKIPEDIA DOES NOT PROVE ANYTHING. Wikipedia summarizes evidence, and this evidence isn't even in English. If you use google translate and search the Dengeki interviews concerning the NA version of BBS, this is what you can figure out they cited:

Q: The North American version of BBS is to be released soon?

A: Yes, it will be released on September 7. Even though we've added many things, the story has changed a little. Mark Hamill will be voicing Master Eraqus, and the voice of Master Xehanort is Leonard Nimoy, from Star Trek. A new mysterious enemy has been added. It's terribly strong, so winning is an achievement. You meet it twice, and the debugger had to try twenty times before defeating it once.

 

Q: Is it stronger than the Vanitas' Sentiment?

A: We took a survey, and some people thought it was a little stronger than the Vanitas Sentiment, but others thought it was far stronger. Like the Lingering Sentiment of KH2FM+, its attacks are hard to predict, unlike Vanitas' Sentiment, which has movements that are fairly easy to read. The new enemy will use nefarious tricks.

 

Q: Is the new character also involved with the story?

A: As with the Lingering Sentiment, at the time of KHBBS I can't reveal that.

 

Q: And the other major changes?

A: Mega Flare proved too strong and violent, so we've weakened that ability. In addition, there were complaints about the reward for defeating Vanitas' Sentiment, so you will now receive his Keyblade as a prize. Such a modification is a fun novelty that fits well in KH tradition.

 

Q: Is there a new secret movie?

A: No, sadly there is not, because we didn't have additional time. Instead, look to Re:coded to prepare you for the secret movie. Please look forward to that, as NA gets no mobile content. We considered many things, including KH:Days in the making of the secret movie.

(Thank you KH13)

 

No where in that interview is there any proof at all that this fight was cannon. This however is proof that you shouldn't cite it. Always check their sources if they even provided it.

 

Aside from that redundancy where were we? Well, let me once again reiterate that it doesn't matter weather the fight was cannon or simply a "possible" event. Oh ya. Could you PLEASE (I'm begging you here) explain how this fight allegedly debunks my theory (and never cite using wikipedia again, but that's another story).