Thirteen seekers of darkness [SPOILERS]

[Road_To_Dawn 8]

He seriously never said they attempted it. Sora and Riku got rid of them before there was the chance. Remember how some of them were sent to Castle Oblivion because suspected of being disloyal? That was probably a test exactly to see if they were ultimately fit to become Xehanortlings.

 

I think this is true, but I'm not sure. I got the feeling that the failed organization members were never tested as vessels. They either betrayed the organization or were defeated before then.

 

If they had all been tested, then we need some serious explanation as to why Axel and Roxas didn't work.

[Decimo 243]

 

 

I think this is true, but I'm not sure. I got the feeling that the failed organization members were never tested as vessels. They either betrayed the organization or were defeated before then.

 

If they had all been tested, then we need some serious explanation as to why Axel and Roxas didn't work.

 

They had never been tested because Master Xehanort wasn't around at the time, so it wouldn't have been possible.

 

(I'm glad they didn't, yellow eyes wouldn't have matched Roxas hair well.)

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

I think this is true, but I'm not sure. I got the feeling that the failed organization members were never tested as vessels. They either betrayed the organization or were defeated before then.

 

If they had all been tested, then we need some serious explanation as to why Axel and Roxas didn't work.

 

Saix and Xigbar were also defeated yet they were vessels. Secondly ,Saix was also a traitor . He also had the eyes/ ears from the first time we saw him and in Days . There is no way for Xemnas to know if they would fail unless he attempted. He did know that not all would be successful so he had time travel as backup. As for Roxas he didnt join til last and was too aware of himself to even test it on him.. But im still pretty sure he attemped it on the others. Saix was a traitor in Days yet was still norted. Him changing into a Nort was a catalyst in his failed friendship with Lea. Lea saw he was changing even then

 

 

Also, If anyones noticed, even Xemnas himself was defeated by Sora and Riku.Secondly, It seems to be a requirement that a vessel must have a large amount of darkness to be norted. Thats why MX needed Terra and Sora to fall to darkness to be his vessels.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Flaming Lea

[Road_To_Dawn 8]

Saix and Xigbar were also defeated yet they were vessels. Secondly ,Saix was also a traitor . He also had the eyes/ ears from the first time we saw him and in Days . There is no way for Xemnas to know if they would fail unless he attempted. He did know that not all would be successful so he had time travel as backup. As for Roxas he didnt join til last and was too aware of himself to even test it on him.. But im still pretty sure he attemped it on the others. Saix was a traitor in Days yet was still norted. Him changing into a Nort was a catalyst in his failed friendship with Lea. Lea saw he was changing even then

 

 

Also, If anyones noticed, even Xemnas himself was defeated by Sora and Riku.Secondly, It seems to be a requirement that a vessel must have a large amount of darkness to be norted. Thats why MX needed Terra and Sora to fall to darkness to be his vessels.

 

Xigbar/Braig, Saix/Isa, Ansem SoD, and Xemnas are all options because YM went back in time to get them. He had to have known that they would work as vessels without testing them (or they went into the organization already being vessels).

[Decimo 243]

 

 

Xigbar/Braig, Saix/Isa, Ansem SoD, and Xemnas are all options because YM went back in time to get them. He had to have known that they would work as vessels without testing them (or they went into the organization already being vessels).

 

Braig and Isa knew Master Xehanort before he lost his memory (during BBS), it's most likely they were made vessels when they were still whole. Ansem and Xemnas are natural vessels, being part Xehanort just by existing.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Xigbar/Braig, Saix/Isa, Ansem SoD, and Xemnas are all options because YM went back in time to get them. He had to have known that they would work as vessels without testing them (or they went into the organization already being vessels).

 

 

Im talking about the fact that they were presently norts in the Days and KH2. During that time he would have no way to know who would be successful or not unless he did attempt. He couldnt travel to the future to find out bc you can only travel to a point in time where one of you already exists. And since the future didnt happen yet there is no version of him there yet.Therefore , the ONLY way to know is to find out . Knowing this, he made a back up plan - time travel.

 

Braig and Isa knew Master Xehanort before he lost his memory (during BBS), it's most likely they were made vessels when they were still whole. Ansem and Xemnas are natural vessels, being part Xehanort just by existing.

 

 

This too

[Road_To_Dawn 8]

Braig and Isa knew Master Xehanort before he lost his memory (during BBS), it's most likely they were made vessels when they were still whole. Ansem and Xemnas are natural vessels, being part Xehanort just by existing.

 

This. I agree with this. Therefore I don't think there's reason to assume that the other Org members were tested and failed. The organization isn't meant as an experiment. It's meant as the collection of current individuals whom MX thinks will be the vessels he needs.

 

Speaking of which, is MX a guarantee as one of the vessels? I guess the battle between GOL and the 13 darknesses isn't really explained. If they clash, does that mean they all need to be defeated for X-Blade to be formed, or do they all just need to be present? (and if so, why can one of them wield/use X-blade while others cannot?)

 

Oh man I love this plot so much. Makes the horcruxes from Harry Potter look like childs play.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

This. I agree with this. Therefore I don't think there's reason to assume that the other Org members were tested and failed. The organization isn't meant as an experiment. It's meant as the collection of current individuals whom MX thinks will be the vessels he needs.

 

But see thats where you are wrong .It WAS intended to try to form 13 vessels hence why its organization 13.. He just knew not all would end up successful. And they were collected for that reason. Why gather them in the org if they were failures from the beginning ? That makes no sense.Why have time travel as a back up if he already knew they were useless to his cause of vessels? He couldve just found more 'worthy ' candidates instead of wasting time.

[Decimo 243]

They weren't failures from the beginning, they were failures from the moment they betrayed the Organization. Or got killed by Sora.

[Road_To_Dawn 8]

But see thats where you are wrong .It WAS intended to try to form 13 vessels hence why its organization 13.. He just knew not all would end up successful. And they were collected for that reason. Why gather them in the org if they were failures from the beginning ? That makes no sense.Why have time travel as a back up if he already knew they were useless to his cause of vessels? He couldve just found more 'worthy ' candidates instead of wasting time.

 

"thinks will be the vessels he needs"

 

There is nothing that suggests all were tried and failed. If they failed, why in the world would they be kept around? They would be worthless at that point.

 

I think Org. XIII is composed of verified vessels (Xemnas, Xibgar, Saix) and individuals who are being tested as vessels (specifically Roxas).

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

They weren't failures from the beginning, they were failures from the moment they betrayed the Organization. Or got killed by Sora.

 

 

Thats part of my point .They were all defeated by Sora/ Riku .Including his confirmed vessels Saix, Xigbar, and Xemnas himself...Yet they were all norts. Saix was also a traitor .

 

"thinks will be the vessels he needs"

 

There is nothing that suggests all were tried and failed. If they failed, why in the world would they be kept around? They would be worthless at that point.

 

I think Org. XIII is composed of verified vessels (Xemnas, Xibgar, Saix) and individuals who are being tested as vessels (specifically Roxas).

 

You are missing my point .I think they were all implanted and he was awaiting the results throughout the time we saw them in.He knew some of them eventually wouldnt turn out successful. If he knew from the beginning he wouldnt have kept them around.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Flaming Lea

[Road_To_Dawn 8]

But Xibar and Saix were collected from the past so that they WEREN'T destroyed and existed as active vessels.

 

If they were failures from the beginning/had been tested and failed, then Xehanort would be seriously wasting his time.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

But Xibar and Saix were collected from the past so that they WEREN'T destroyed and existed as active vessels.

 

If they were failures from the beginning/had been tested and failed, then Xehanort would be seriously wasting his time.

 

The Saix and Xigbar we saw in KH2 and Days were NOT from the past so this is moot. They were norted then too. Also, it actually hasnt been confirmed the Saix and Xigbar in DDD are from the past .The organization was set up from the time they were stabbed till KH2 as Norts vessels. He just didnt know who would be successful and how many thus the time travel BACK UP plan.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Flaming Lea

[Road_To_Dawn 8]

"You are missing my point .I think they were all implanted and he was awaiting the results throughout the time we saw them in.He knew some of them eventually wouldnt turn out successful. If he knew from the beginning he wouldnt have kept them around. "

 

Who is saying that they were known failures from the beginning?

 

To back this up and clean up the mess we've created here, explain to me why you think they have all been tested.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

"You are missing my point .I think they were all implanted and he was awaiting the results throughout the time we saw them in.He knew some of them eventually wouldnt turn out successful. If he knew from the beginning he wouldnt have kept them around. "

 

Who is saying that they were known failures from the beginning?

 

To back this up and clean up the mess we've created here, explain to me why you think they have all been tested.

 

Ive already explained many times why i think they were implanted . Saix and Xigbar were norted from the first time we saw them. The organization was formed to make 13 vessels hence why there were only 13 members. Xemnas even states to Roxas to count the seats' as they were always only 13' members. He knew some would eventually fail so he states he has a back up plan - time travel to grab past versions of himself. .There is no way to know if they were failed vessels unless he had tried and waited to see the results . Being defeated wasnt why some werent successful since EVERYONE was defeated in the Org including the successful vessels. He also had a traitor ( saix) as a successful vessel.He couldnt travel to the future to see who would be successful so how would he know unless he waited around to see who it worked on. Also, there would be no reason to keep them around if he already know from the time they joined they were fails. He had to have found a way to find out if they would by actually implanting them

[Road_To_Dawn 8]

Ive already explained many times why i think they were implanted . Saix and Xigbar were norted from the first time we saw them. The organization was formed to make 13 vessels hence why there were only 13 members. Xemnas even states to Roxas to count the seats' as they were always only 13' members. He knew some would eventually fail so he states he has a back up plan - time travel to grab past versions of himself. .There is no way to know if they were failed vessels unless he had tried and waited to see the results . Being defeated wasnt why some werent successful since EVERYONE was defeated in the Org including the successful vessels. He also had a traitor ( saix) as a successful vessel.He couldnt travel to the future to see who would be successful so how would he know unless he waited around to see who it worked on. Also, there would be no reason to keep them around if he already know from the time they joined they were fails. He had to have found a way to find out if they would by actually implanting them

 

By this logic, since being defeated can't stop vessels from working, the members of Org XIII in COM and KHII are still unknown as vessels. Therefore, Xehanort doesn't have to go to a backup plan since he doesn't know if he needs it or not (after all, you said he can't go forward in time and see the results, so those Org members must be brought back or something).

 

Now that I think about what I said some more, he has to known some have failed because he tries to use Sora as one. Therefore either:

 

1) With some Org members, being defeated/traitors means "no vessel for you."

2) He tried them and he KNEW they failed, but kept them around (major, major, major plot hole if that is true).

 

And I'm almost 100% positive Isa/Saix and Braig/Xigbar are from the past. They've been defeated and didn't return as humans to Radiant Garden. So either they are dragged forward in time (likely) or they are in their human forms when sitting at Where Nothing Gathers in TWTNW

[Road_To_Dawn 8]

And if Roxas failed as a vessel, why in the world would he try Sora? That would make no sense

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

By this logic, since being defeated can't stop vessels from working, the members of Org XIII in COM and KHII are still unknown as vessels. Therefore, Xehanort doesn't have to go to a backup plan since he doesn't know if he needs it or not (after all, you said he can't go forward in time and see the results, so those Org members must be brought back or something).

 

Now that I think about what I said some more, he has to known some have failed because he tries to use Sora as one. Therefore either:

 

1) With some Org members, being defeated/traitors means "no vessel for you."

2) He tried them and he KNEW they failed, but kept them around (major, major, major plot hole if that is true).

 

And I'm almost 100% positive Isa/Saix and Braig/Xigbar are from the past. They've been defeated and didn't return as humans to Radiant Garden. So either they are dragged forward in time (likely) or they are in their human forms when sitting at Where Nothing Gathers in TWTNW

 

 

Nomura already confirmed that some in the Room Where Nothing Gathers werent from the past . Its NOT confirmed about Saix or Xigbar period.That very well could be them in that room as revived humans. Since they were successful they couldve been gathered before the others woke up. It isnt confirmed.

 

As for who were successful, there may still be others like the last 4 . I think some of the ones not successful were probably the leftover apprentices and Lea. Why? If you may have noticed, it also takes a large amount of Darkness to make a successful vessel .Thats why MX needed Terra ,Riku, and Sora to fall to darkness before he attempted or did use them as vessels. The apprentices left like Ienzo,Even,Dilan, and Aleaus were said to be loyal upstanding good people with little darkness . From what we saw of Lea i would say the same .Plus hes also one of the nobodies who actually was deeply affected by Roxas/Soras heart

 

And if Roxas failed as a vessel, why in the world would he try Sora? That would make no sense

 

I already answered this. He said Roxas became too aware of himself and questioned everything . He didnt have the chance. He didnt join to a decade after the others. Same reason why he couldnt use Riku either . He became aware of his road to dawn and wasnt afraid of the darkness. He did NEED Sora to fall to darkness for this to work. Also Roxas and Sora are their own 2 seperate people .Nomura even said this

Edited August 5, 2012 by Flaming Lea

[Road_To_Dawn 8]

"Nomura already confirmed that some in the Room Where Nothing Gathers werent from the past . Its NOT confirmed about Saix or Xigbar period.That very well could be them in that room as revived humans. Since they were successful they couldve been gathered before the others woke up. It isnt confirmed."

 

There are two options (which is why I brought up both). If they are in Xigbar/Saix form, they have to be from the past. If they are in Braig/Isa form, then they aren't.

 

"I already answered this. He said Roxas became to aware of himself and questioned everything . He didnt have the chance. He didnt join to a decade after the others."

 

He did it to Sora in about 5 seconds. Your reasoning here doesn't explain why he would bother trying with a more self-aware form of Sora (the actual Sora) and not with Roxas (and he would have had time according to your logic, because he implants them before he knows much of anything about them and THEN does the trial to see if they work).

 

There are just too many plot holes associated with your explanations. It doesn't make sense for them to have been implanted as vessels at the beginning.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

"Nomura already confirmed that some in the Room Where Nothing Gathers werent from the past . Its NOT confirmed about Saix or Xigbar period.That very well could be them in that room as revived humans. Since they were successful they couldve been gathered before the others woke up. It isnt confirmed."

 

There are two options (which is why I brought up both). If they are in Xigbar/Saix form, they have to be from the past. If they are in Braig/Isa form, then they aren't.

 

"I already answered this. He said Roxas became to aware of himself and questioned everything . He didnt have the chance. He didnt join to a decade after the others."

 

He did it to Sora in about 5 seconds. Your reasoning here doesn't explain why he would bother trying with a more self-aware form of Sora (the actual Sora) and not with Roxas (and he would have had time according to your logic, because he implants them before he knows much of anything about them and THEN does the trial to see if they work).

 

There are just too many plot holes associated with your explanations. It doesn't make sense for them to have been implanted as vessels at the beginning.

 

He didnt do it in 5 seconds . He was about to TRY .And you seem to miss what ive said many times. It doesnt happen instantly.Once its implanted we dont know how long it takes to take over a person or to not and be a fail . We are dealing with a FRAGMENT of a heart not a whole freaking heart like MX and Terra So you are wrong

Secondly , They needed Sora to FALL TO DARKNESS FIRST . Roxas never did .What part of that didnt you read or understand ? Roxas never fell to darknes to attempt this .This is why they didnt get a chance to try .Then he became aware of himself and LEFT . There are no plot holes here. Did you not read everything ?

Edited August 5, 2012 by Flaming Lea

[Road_To_Dawn 8]

" This was the original plan for the first Organization XIII, when Master Xehanort had planned to place a fragment of his own heart inside each of the Nobodies, who were deceived into thinking they lacked hearts in order to ensure their loyalty to Xemnas, but their unforeseen independence, which was demonstrated mostly by Axel and Roxas, made his plan impossible to realize"

 

This is from khwiki.net (undoubtedly the best source for this kind of info). From their talking here, they seem to think Org XIII was a test to see who would work, not an experiment to see which nobodies would work as vessels after being implanted.

 

And I read everything you wrote. Doesn't mean you were concise in the slightest with your theories.

 

P.S.- if they were implanted before entering the organization, then Roxas would have been implanted immediately. The others were, so there's no good explanation as to why Roxas wasn't implanted immediately.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

" This was the original plan for the first Organization XIII, when Master Xehanort had planned to place a fragment of his own heart inside each of the Nobodies, who were deceived into thinking they lacked hearts in order to ensure their loyalty to Xemnas, but their unforeseen independence, which was demonstrated mostly by Axel and Roxas, made his plan impossible to realize"

 

This is from khwiki.net (undoubtedly the best source for this kind of info). From their talking here, they seem to think Org XIII was a test to see who would work, not an experiment to see which nobodies would work as vessels after being implanted.

 

And I read everything you wrote. Doesn't mean you were concise in the slightest with your theories.

 

P.S.- if they were implanted before entering the organization, then Roxas would have been implanted immediately. The others were, so there's no good explanation as to why Roxas wasn't implanted immediately.

 

LMAO@ Wiki. Thats altered by any idiot who wants to change it . Nice try though.Use credible sources only please

Secondly,I was very concise. You just choose not to read what i said since ive had to repeat myself many times

Thirdly, When the other apprentices were stabbed they were dabbling into the experiments with DARKNESS . Why? so MX could trick them as part of his plan.Same thing with Isa and Lea.. Lea woke up in his cloak when revived ? Why? He had it on before he lost his heart. Meaning the apprentices were experimenting on him when he was stabbed. AX seemed to want to trick them into using darkness and whatnot so when he stabbed them it would help make them successful vessels if exposed to it...Roxas was found YEARS later . Not exposed to darkness . It seems to be a staple to make this process work. .It seems to me YOU are the one who isnt making much sense. You dont even seem to be reading what ive typed or you wouldnt need me to answer your same questions over and over.

 

 

Also being rude to people wont help your cause . You just end up looking like an ass. I told you why . No point in arguing when you cant prove me wrong or prove yourself right. Thats why earlier in this thread others came to a mutual agreement on this

Edited August 5, 2012 by Flaming Lea

[Road_To_Dawn 8]

Whatever man. I'm not here to get into pissing contests. I don't think I'm the only one who has trouble going through your attempts at explaining your viewpoints.

 

I can buy into the theory that these people were implanted before (because Braig may have been implanted a looooooooooooong time ago), but there are definitely holes that need to be cleared up (as is what happens with all theories).

 

Have a good day.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Road_To_Dawn

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

"LMAO@ Wiki. Thats altered by any idiot who wants to change it . Nice try though.Use credible sources only please"

 

You act like the mods don't filter out the crap that gets edited into it.

 

"Secondly,I was very concise. You just choose not to read what i said since ive had to repeat myself many times"

 

Yes, clearly lack of clarity in writing is always on the reader and never the writer...

 

"Thirdly, When the other apprentices were stabbed they were dabbling into the experiments with DARKNESS . Why? so MX could trick them as part of his plan.Same thing with Isa and Lea.. Lea woke up in his cloak when revived ? Why? He had it on before he lost his heart. Meaning the apprentices were experimenting on him when he was stabbed. AX seemed to want to trick them into using darkness and whatnot so when he stabbed them it would help make them successful vessels if exposed to it...Roxas was found YEARS later . Not exposed to darkness . It seems to be a staple to make this process work "

 

That doesn't mean that their hearts had fallen into darkness. This is a pretty massive leap in logic on your part. Also, if Xehanort knew he would need 13 members and was indeed experimenting with them, why did he wait ELEVEN YEARS to find a 13th person to try it out on?

 

".It seems to me YOU are the one who isnt making much sense. You dont even seem to be reading what ive typed or you wouldnt need me to answer your same questions over and over. "

 

Clearly this is on me...and the other people who have questioned what you've been trying to say. Like I said before...always the reader, never the writer, correct?

 

I never SAID THEY FELL to darkness . I said that was part of what AX was wanting or attempting . Quit assuming when accusing me of assuming. They were obviously stabbed . But they were also dabbling in the darkness with AX's encouragement. You dont seem to comprehend or you twist what im saying and then say you dont understand . What ? Make sense plz. It is on you when you cant comprehend what i wrote clearly .ALSO, Since you dont seem to realize this, DDD plot retconned a lot bc DDD wasnt even concepted or thought of including this part until years after KH2 and Days came out . Also confirmed by Nomura. Therefore when he made DDD this stuff wasnt what was originally written. So the 11 years was not considered when DDD and time travel didnt exist at the time. Go read the DDD Ultimate interview and May 10 famitsu interview before you spout more nonsense.

 

 

Thirdly if you read this thread there were others who agreed with me too. Way to go genius for not figuring that out without me pointing it out . The fact that you are getting soo rude and ignorant for no reason proves you have nothing actually good to say and you cant prove me wrong

 

Finally EVERYONE knows you cant take wiki seriously bc its info is severely flawed.FACT.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Flaming Lea

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Whatever man. I'm not here to get into pissing contests. I don't think I'm the only one who has trouble going through your attempts at explaining your viewpoints.

 

I can buy into the theory that these people were implanted before (because Braig may have been implanted a looooooooooooong time ago), but there are definitely holes that need to be cleared up (as is what happens with all theories).

 

Have a good day.

 

But some of the plotholes you think you are saying arent on my part . Some were due to some of the retconning DDD's plot did . Not my fault. Also if you read this whole thread there were others who agreed with me so that makes little sense to say no one else agreed.