KH3D *SPOILERS* So uh...logically?

[Tom 437]

Ok, so time travel discussion. So taking what everyone has said and what the cutscenes have shown, we can conclude this:

 

How to Time Travel:

- In order to time travel, you must rid of your "flesh" (which I assume is the physical form), basically not exist, except for being a heart.

- You may only go in one direction. So if you want to time travel, you must figure out if you're going back into the past or to the future, not both.

-You cannot bring anyone or anything with you when you time travel

 

Ok, Nomura put some thought into it when he placed time travel into it.

 

Now the only people who could time travel were Ansem SoD and Young Master Xehanort. Ansem time traveled backwards, losing his form, and only being able to mantain a slight physical form inside of a brown coat. He there taught the Xehanort, who was still on the island, how to time travel. And with that, this Xehanort was able to time travel into the future (goal was to grab the Xehanorts before they died, if I am correct?), and he would become Young Master Xehanort seen in 3D.

 

What I don't get is that Ansem time traveled back and lost his "flesh". Young Master Xehanort time traveled forwards...but has he lost his "flesh"? The rules state that either you travel forwards or backwards in time, you'll have to lose your form.

 

YMX seems to look similar to his past form, but not quite. If he had to travel as his heart...then that means somebody was used a vessel to contain this Xehanort.

 

Explainations? Thoughts? Answers? am i doin dis rite guys?

[Sibyl 32]

maybe ansem SoD being a heartless, couldnt retain an acurate veiw of himself, and YMX being human could, also remember they were in a dream so techinically anything could happen

[Skai 3,961]

No idea. Maybe he left his body somewhere and picked it up when he got to the future? Like ven's body? It doesn't look like ven got older either.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

See i wonder about that too.If he can only time travel as a heartless how does he have a body unless hes possessing someone ? and if he is then who? Also if you have to be a heartless to time travel how can he grab all his versions that arent heartless with him ? How can they travel through time ?

[Skai 3,961]

maybe ansem SoD being a heartless, couldnt retain an acurate veiw of himself, and YMX being human could, also remember they were in a dream so techinically anything could happen

 

They weren't inside the dream when they were in TWTNW, were they?

[Remains of Old 117]

No one really knows about what YMX did, maybe we will find out on some interviews, or when someone translate the reports of DDD, or sadly, just on KH3.

I honestly see preety much of a difference between these 2:

So, for me, YMX somehow got a new body.

[Keyblade King 12 486]

Well, I've been thinking about this and there's only one conclusion I can make.

 

If we all remember that back when Sora became a heartless, he lost his body. That body then became Roxas and existed elsewhere. However, Kairi was somehow able to rid the darkness off of Sora's heart and give his heart a physical form, despite not having a body.

I believe YMX is something similar. He's a heart with a physical form. I'm just not sure how it works.

[BlazingSoul 130]

Yeah someone can become a walking heart if they have a strong one. After Sora stabbed himself until Roxas fused with him in KH2, Sora was a walking heart. I wonder why Ventus can't transform into a walking heart, is his heart not strong enough?

[DawningEclipse 38]

Time travel is a tricky thing

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Yeah someone can become a walking heart if they have a strong one. After Sora stabbed himself until Roxas fused with him in KH2, Sora was a walking heart. I wonder why Ventus can't transform into a walking heart, is his heart not strong enough?

 

Sora was a walking heart bc a princess of heart hugged him and changed his form .It didnt happen on his own.Before she did that Sora was a shadow heartless. Secondly,Ventus' heart is in Sora so hes not a heartless period let alone ever being a walking heart.

[Bizarro 10]

I honestly see preety much of a difference between these 2:

The 'difference' I assume you're talking about can be explained by the polygon count, as the YMX from 3D is in higher resolution. Remember, the face model from BBS was more of a placeholder than anything because his face was never shown in the game; in the secret ending of 3D, the scene from BBS is replicated when YMX says his introductory line ("This world is too small") and he's revealed to have the exact same face he always did. Not really a difference there, so I don't think he's using a different body. I could be wrong though.

 

What I don't get is that Ansem time traveled back and lost his "flesh". Young Master Xehanort time traveled forwards...but has he lost his "flesh"? The rules state that either you travel forwards or backwards in time, you'll have to lose your form.

 

That's the biggest head-scratcher for me, which is ultimately why we desperately need translations for any reports that might be in 3D. I speculate it might be the Keyblade YMX uses that allows him to travel throughout time without losing his body, but there's not really any evidence to support that. Who knows? Edited April 3, 2012 by Bizarro

[atheist123 583]

That's the biggest head-scratcher for me, which is ultimately why we desperately need translations for any reports that might be in 3D. I speculate it might be the Keyblade YMX uses that allows him to travel throughout time without losing his body, but there's not really any evidence to support that. Who knows?

 

YMX has no body in KH3D. Problem solved. He is just a heart who has a physical form resembling his original body. He still has a link with his original body that teethers him to the time he started time travelling, and allows him to remember his physical form. ASoD in KH1 was a heartless that retained a humanoid form (brown cloaked) but his link wasn't with Xemnas instead with an approx human form. Since AX was purposefully split into a Nobody and Heartless in order to create two Xehanorts, not specifically for time travel (this was something ASoD learned (or remembered) while as a heartless), the entities were unique, not just the heart of a somebody time travelling. Edited April 3, 2012 by atheist123

[Bizarro 10]

Yeah, that's a fairly logical way of looking at it. His heart might actually be tied to his original body in such a way that he's a sort of 'projection' of himself that eventually returns to his own body once the events in 3D are finished. Regardless, I think we'd need some sort of report translation to possibly shed light on this (if they even exist).

Edited April 3, 2012 by Bizarro

[legendkiller222 22]

Wait I have a question...I've heard that you cannot change past events so then Ansem SoD going back in time and informing YMX of his future goes against the rules? Also, if you cannot bring people with you then how are Ansem SoD and Xemnas there? They can't all cast their flesh aside and time travel and then regrow bodies...you can only be in a different time without a body.

[atheist123 583]

Wait I have a question...I've heard that you cannot change past events so then Ansem SoD going back in time and informing YMX of his future goes against the rules? Also, if you cannot bring people with you then how are Ansem SoD and Xemnas there? They can't all cast their flesh aside and time travel and then regrow bodies...you can only be in a different time without a body.

 

For the first part, no it doesn't. ASoD learns how to time travel from the memories he has of when he was YMX, and YMX learns how to time travel from ASoD. There is only one reality and this is YMX time travelling.

 

The second part is, I think that Xehanorts don't need actual bodies at the present time; just as long as they have bodies at some time. Xemnas/Ansem are probably just their consciousness' in a projection of their bodies. Once they are "defeated" this projection will return to their bodies at the time they left but without any extra memories. So Xemnas/ASoD are prob. just "hearts" too, not physical beings. Kinda like ghosts of their past selves. But idk . . . this makes a little bit of sense to me. You're free to think whatever you want ;p

[legendkiller222 22]

For the first part, no it doesn't. ASoD learns how to time travel from the memories he has of when he was YMX, and YMX learns how to time travel from ASoD. There is only one reality and this is YMX time travelling.

 

The second part is, I think that Xehanorts don't need actual bodies at the present time; just as long as they have bodies at some time. Xemnas/Ansem are probably just their consciousness' in a projection of their bodies. Once they are "defeated" this projection will return to their bodies at the time they left but without any extra memories. So Xemnas/ASoD are prob. just "hearts" too, not physical beings. Kinda like ghosts of their past selves. But idk . . . this makes a little bit of sense to me. You're free to think whatever you want ;p

 

But if Ansem SoD goes back in time he is altering the future if he informs YMX of what is to come. YMX doesn't know of his future and does not plan for it if Ansem SoD doesn't come, so that is changing the future. I don't know if I can believe that Xemnas and Ansem SoD are projections of themselves because it goes against KH. Now if someone can project their body without an actual body then what is the point of any vessel actually being needed. Thanks for the response though, I just find time travel in anything to be more confusing than helpful.

[Keyblade King 12 486]

But if Ansem SoD goes back in time he is altering the future if he informs YMX of what is to come. YMX doesn't know of his future and does not plan for it if Ansem SoD doesn't come, so that is changing the future. I don't know if I can believe that Xemnas and Ansem SoD are projections of themselves because it goes against KH. Now if someone can project their body without an actual body then what is the point of any vessel actually being needed. Thanks for the response though, I just find time travel in anything to be more confusing than helpful.

 

This is kinda difficult to explain. But I think (Emphasis on the word 'think') that Ansem SOD was always meant to go back in time, so he never changed anything. MX says quite a few things about destiny when explaining his plan to Mickey, so I think it's possible that A SOD was able to get around the rules of changing the past because it was always supposed to happen to start off the Keyblade War, which MX said 'would happen naturally' meaning it would happen one way or another.

However, I think if someone else was to go back in time and try to stop YMX (like by killing him or something) then that wouldn't be allowed because it would be changing the past.

[Remains of Old 117]

Well, I've been thinking about this and there's only one conclusion I can make.

 

If we all remember that back when Sora became a heartless, he lost his body. That body then became Roxas and existed elsewhere. However, Kairi was somehow able to rid the darkness off of Sora's heart and give his heart a physical form, despite not having a body.

I believe YMX is something similar. He's a heart with a physical form. I'm just not sure how it works.

 

You sir, deserve a cookie. That's going to be it for me, at least until some YMX reports are translated, because i think some of them will explain more about Time Travel.

In the meantime, i'm believing at what you just said.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

You sir, deserve a cookie. That's going to be it for me, at least until some YMX reports are translated, because i think some of them will explain more about Time Travel.

In the meantime, i'm believing at what you just said.

 

Except a princess of heart did this to Sora and secondly this doesnt answer how he can bring other versions with him that arent heartless? Even Ansem SoD has a body at that point..We need the reports and further translations.lol

[Lex 3]

There's a pattern by which extracted hearts can regain physical forms- the connections between them and other hearts:

 

Part of Ansem SOD's heart is/was in Riku, so Ansem was able to take a physical form (even separate from Riku).

Part of Sora's heart was in Kairi, so Sora was able to regain his physical from (separate from Roxas).

 

And here I'm going to make a presumption:

 

Part of YMX's heart is in Master Xehanort. That's why the assembling of Xehanorts from across time couldn't take place until Master Xehanort returned. He's basically pulling a Voldemort-Horcrux, except each of the pieces of his heart is fully animate, and through their strong connections to him, able to take on a physical form.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Lex

[atheist123 583]

But if Ansem SoD goes back in time he is altering the future if he informs YMX of what is to come. YMX doesn't know of his future and does not plan for it if Ansem SoD doesn't come, so that is changing the future.

There is a huge amount of time between YMX and MX's age; about 50 years. We have no idea what happened between these times and how YMX time travels so anyones guess is just as right.

 

But, based on all the evidence, the only thing that makes total sense to me is that YMX has left his body (allowing him to time travel) but the knowledge he gains while time traveling is sealed away in his heart until his heart is released from his body again (in becoming ASoD). I suppose you could call it "the memories of the body vs the memories of the heart", while in physical bodies entities only have memories of the present.

 

Its either that or Xemnas/ASoD have all their memories about the past and future but know that they must eventually be defeated so the MX can be revived. When AX remembered his past as MX he attacked the apprentices and turned himself into a heartless/nobody . . . so, as implied in the secret ending of BBS, this whole time travel business was one of MX's plans from before he possessed Terra and presumably this knowledge of how to time travel came from his time as YMX when ASoD told him how to time travel.

 

I don't know if I can believe that Xemnas and Ansem SoD are projections of themselves because it goes against KH. Now if someone can project their body without an actual body then what is the point of any vessel actually being needed. Thanks for the response though, I just find time travel in anything to be more confusing than helpful.

 

I don't think it goes against Kh . . . Roxas'/ Ventus' heart have projected into Soras multiple times so why can't Xehanorts hearts project through time not just space? I think vessels are still needed because each version of Xehanort needs to have a different essence or else they are just all the same. YMX is Xehanort before he turned completely evil, Xemnas is AX's nobody, ASoD is AX's heartless, MX is YMX after his heart is corrupted from travelling in the RoD/roads between without protection and IsaNort/BraigNort are MX's heart in different vessels. Hearts can communicate with each other kinda like how particles can talk to each other thorugh time and space. This is one of the only aspects of time travel supported through science so don't say it can't happen!

[legendkiller222 22]

There is a huge amount of time between YMX and MX's age; about 50 years. We have no idea what happened between these times and how YMX time travels so anyones guess is just as right.

 

But, based on all the evidence, the only thing that makes total sense to me is that YMX has left his body (allowing him to time travel) but the knowledge he gains while time traveling is sealed away in his heart until his heart is released from his body again (in becoming ASoD). I suppose you could call it "the memories of the body vs the memories of the heart", while in physical bodies entities only have memories of the present.

 

Its either that or Xemnas/ASoD have all their memories about the past and future but know that they must eventually be defeated so the MX can be revived. When AX remembered his past as MX he attacked the apprentices and turned himself into a heartless/nobody . . . so, as implied in the secret ending of BBS, this whole time travel business was one of MX's plans from before he possessed Terra and presumably this knowledge of how to time travel came from his time as YMX when ASoD told him how to time travel.

 

 

I don't think it goes against Kh . . . Roxas'/ Ventus' heart have projected into Soras multiple times so why can't Xehanorts hearts project through time not just space? I think vessels are still needed because each version of Xehanort needs to have a different essence or else they are just all the same. YMX is Xehanort before he turned completely evil, Xemnas is AX's nobody, ASoD is AX's heartless, MX is YMX after his heart is corrupted from travelling in the RoD/roads between without protection and IsaNort/BraigNort are MX's heart in different vessels. Hearts can communicate with each other kinda like how particles can talk to each other thorugh time and space. This is one of the only aspects of time travel supported through science so don't say it can't happen!

 

The KH universe is different than our actual universe and using time travel theories that we know in real life is a fallacy in explaining KH time travel. But the arugment that Roxas/Ven's hearts have been projected through Sora or into Sora is a huge difference to compared with what Ansem and Xemnas would be doing. To say you can project your body through time and space is to ignore the idea of casting flesh away because Ansem SoD would not have been a spirit when he visited YMX. He would have took use of Riku's body and went through the events of KH1 up until he needed to go back in time because he would have been able to prepare more. So, this cannot be the case.

[Tom 437]

Eh, I guess I'll just throw it in here because I came up with it last night and frankly, I like this more than just a walking heart.

 

Here's the difference between the original Xehanort and the Young Master Xehanort:

 

Xehanort:

- deep voice

- definitely seems to be older than say Sora and Riku

- stays on the island until he finds a way to get off, and gets a Keyblade, then adventures until he becomes the old Master Xehanort

 

Young Master Xehanort:

- takes upon a more high pitch voice

- it looks as if he grew younger, looks like he's around Sora or Riku's age in KH2.

- has time traveled fowards in time to collect Xehanorts before their death, in the process gets a Keyblade

 

Because of their differences, I'm doubting that the original Xehanort time travels and manages to take this VERY DIFFERENT form because he is a walking heart. And idk if you realize it, but the original, before time traveling, has not obtained a Keyblade yet. So when we see YMX throw out a Keyblade in front of Riku and Mickey, it's a little suspicious.

 

There are two ways he could of gotten a Keyblade. One would be the Rite of Succession, and I'm not going to believe that one of the Xehanorts he brought back was, "KTHNX HERES THE ABILITY TO USE ONE, AND YOUR VERY OWN KEYBLADE, YAAAAAY!". Or the second option would be of course, if a Keyblade Wielder's heart resides in a body of someone. Now Sora can use the Keyblade, because he had a strong heart. But after seeing the Xehanorts taunt Sora that he isn't a true Keyblade Wielder through out the entire game, I'm starting to lean towards that thanks to Ventus, he is able to wield the Keyblade. How it's seen, it can go both ways.

 

For someone like YMX, who time traveled in the future, lost his form, and when he finally did get a new form, it was a more younger version, and he was able to wield a Keyblade, since I guess you can say that originally he was going to obtain one, but the time traveling missed his chance to do so, I don't think a walking heart could of managed all this. There's just little reason to call it out on that.

 

So firetruck it, I'll just say it.

 

His heart is harboring inside someone else's body, as a vessel. Out of pure speculation, I want to say Vanitas. Vanitas has not appeared in the entire game, except for the one instance where YMX approached Sora in the Hunchback world, and Vanitas appeared, but as an illusion.

 

Here's what really leading me to think it's Vanitas. Now assuming YMX saved Vanitas within his time traveling, or any possible reason Vanitas could of came back, he would use Vanitas as a vessel for Xehanort or Xehanortified him. Vanitas....isn't exactly a slave to MX in BBS, if you remember correctly. Vanitas, instead, would disobey his orders, to the point of ending his entire plan to forge the X-Blade, simply by ending Ven's life. Basically, Vanitas doesn't care about MX. His focus was on Ven and pretty much Ven only. Sure, the occasional Aqua, but that's for if Ven could not be a proper being to merge with to forge the X-Blade. And that's pretty much it, just his focus on Ven, because he is "dark side" after all. So when I think about it, you can imagine how Vanitas could of reacted to Xehanort's plan to use as much people as vessels for him as possible. Vanitas wouldn't care for his plans, and at that point, would either go back to the X-Blade plans or go after Ven himself. That's why if he is, or going to be, a vessel, there is that feeling that Vanitas would resist to the whole thing, resist to Xehanortification. And that's what I think happened with Vanitas. He resisted, and eventually he was forced. By that time, YMX needed a form, so he would put his heart into Vanitas, and boom, there he is, the YMX we see in 3D.

 

How do you determine it can be him? Well simple really. The heart in body conspirarcy is that when a heart enters a body with someone's heart, some actions may occur. If the heart does not do anything or is dormant, then the body will stay the same. But if the heart tries to take over, then the body starts to gain physical traits, that of the heart that's taking over. If YMX's heart tried to take over Vanitas' body for absolute control, it's going to start looking like him. And thus it does. And when he does finally take that form we see now, his voice, his body, and overall, is more newer and younger. If that's true, then it looks like either Vanitas's heart is weak at the time, or YMX/MX had made it weak.

 

Going back to that illusion, it would appear that Vanitas doesn't look like he's a part of him, but does say exactly what YMX had said, at the same time. Explaining is rather tough. It's like if illusion was supposed to signal that this is his body, but himself in control. Like if Vanitas was saying it to him, but in reality, he wasn't, but YMX was. The illusion there seems kinda unlikely to just throw Sora off (especially since you can't really throw someone off when they don't understand anything at all). But of course, anything is possible.

 

Now the for the Keyblade part. Vanitas can wield his own Keyblade, which is known as the Void Gear. And like I discussed above, YMX missed his chance to wield his actual one because of time traveling. So in order to even be able to get a Keyblade, one of the few ways he has is to use Vanitas' heart to give the power to wield one. As for obtaining one, that I wouldn't be able to exactly figure out, but he could of gotten a Keyblade along the way, it's not entirely impossible. It's like Mickey grabbing the Kingdom Key D, which was a Keyblade of the Realm of Darkness, a Keyblade literally being there. And it become his official one, besides his Star Seeker (and I think that is Yen Sid's anyway, only logical). To show that YMX could be using Vanitas for a Keyblade is if you look closely at his Keyblade, which is hard to see, but I have managed to pause one of the videos in time to get a look. It'll be one of the attached. Assuming you saw the attached photo, you'll see those are gears on his Keyblade, which Vanitas' Void Gear consisted of LOTS of gears. This could be a sign for his time travel of course, but since Vanitas is the only person that has gears on his Keyblade, you can say there could be a slight connection to it. Not quite, but close enough.

 

But what happens to Vanitas after this? Well YMX does mention that he would be returning to his original era. I'll assume that when he does return, he'll return to his past like how it should of happen, nothing rewritten like it should have. He would return to his original self, and Vanitas would stay back. And at that point, MX will probably just use Vanitas as a vessel once more, probably being very weak from being used and Riku beating the shit out of his body, and he'll probably just be Xehanortified sadly.

 

Or I could be extremely off and I am just out of my blooming mind. But as of now, I'll stick with this then a walking heart lol.

 

EDIT*

 

Nevermind, I'll just post the image here, to be easier.

 

Edited April 3, 2012 by Tom

[Skai 3,961]

Instead of speculating, we should just let it be. Nomura has thought about it a lot and if there are any holes he'd fill it in with the final mix version or the next installment.

[Tom 437]

Instead of speculating, we should just let it be. Nomura has thought about it a lot and if there are any holes he'd fill it in with the final mix version or the next installment.

 

There is a reason why there is such thing known as "theories".