KHMoM Question about the post credit scene ( spoilers)

[Vulpes XIII 38]

When Yen Sid was suggesting that Mickey should try and find the ancient Keyblade masters that had crossed over to another world and ask for their help, I’m a bit confused on who exactly they were talking about? As I can only think of two possibilities but neither seem likely.

I thought they might be referring to The Union Leaders but none of them were masters.

I also thought it might be the Foretellers but given the fact they are most likely going to be working for the Master of Masters I don’t think they would help Mickey.

If anyone knows the answer it would really help as I’m kind of confused about the whole thing.

 

[Leamax 746]

It could mean a couple of things. One: Yen Sid refers to them as masters since the Master of Masters' name basically means the Master of a group of Masters and since Ava, Aced, Gula, Invi, and Ira are the leader of their respective union, they may be referenced as Masters. Two: the masters during the time of Xehanort and Eraqus. Maybe Xehanort and Eraqus' teammates ended up becoming Masters before their end or some of the lost people they were looking for. Another could be the Dandelions themselves counted as the first Masters after the Keyblade War. A final guess could be a yet to be named group of Masters that use to rule Scala Ad Calum before it fell to Darkness. 

I assume that at this point we are counting the foretellers since I believe they are counted as Keyblade Masters plus we have seen at least four of them transport from one dimension to another as seen when Luxu called them back. 

[Double OKP 171]

First off, you can cross the Foretellers off the list. They, the Master of Masters, and Luxu are referred to the Lost Masters. If Yen Sid meant them, then he would have said 'Lost Masters' not 'Ancient Masters'. 

When Ephemer was appointed Union Leader, he said this:

Quote

Me? A Master? A Union Leader? That's crazy.

Being appointed Union Leader might make them automatically Masters, but I'm not sure. In the KHIII Secret Reports, Luxu said they were no Masters... they could be Masters, but in my opinion, I don't think Yen Sid was specifically talking about them. 

The Dandelions match a lot of what Yen Sid said. He said the ancient masters 'crossed over into another world'. The Dandelions did cross over to data Daybreak Town. And some of them obviously made it back, one of the Union Leaders(who I'm pretty sure is going to be Brain) passing the No Name down a lineage of Keyblade wielders until the time of Xehanort. So by that time, some of the Dandelions would have been Masters.

On 12/25/2020 at 7:56 PM, Leamax said:

Two: the masters during the time of Xehanort and Eraqus.

I don't think this fits, 'cause Master Odin talks a lot about the 'ancient times', so they wouldn't be considered ancient Masters.

On 12/25/2020 at 7:56 PM, Leamax said:

I assume that at this point we are counting the foretellers since I believe they are counted as Keyblade Masters plus we have seen at least four of them transport from one dimension to another as seen when Luxu called them back.

There's something that doesn't fit with this. In the KHIII epilogue when Ira, Invi, Aced, and Gula reunite with Luxu at the Keyblade Graveyard, Aced says this:

Quote

"What happened? Why are we here?"

To me, it sounds like he expected himself to be dead or something. If he really crossed over to a different dimension, he would know the reason he came back, right?

And when they are summoned by Luxu, they appear through a dusty portal. It really reminds me of Avengers: Infinity War. When Thanos snaps his fingers, the people disappear like dust, really similar to the dust that the Foretellers are summoned. In Spiderman: Far From Home, it shows that when someone returned from 'the blip', that same dust appears again. And it wouldn't be too strange; Marvel is owned by Disney, so they could have used that as a Disney element. However, I'm most likely wrong; I just thought they were similar.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Double OKP

[ocean's rage 772]

1 hour ago, Double OKP said:

And when they are summoned by Luxu, they appear through a dusty portal. It really reminds me of Avengers: Infinity War. When Thanos snaps his fingers, the people disappear like dust, really similar to the dust that the Foretellers are summoned. In Spiderman: Homecoming, it shows that when someone returned from 'the blip', that same dust appears again. And it wouldn't be too strange; Marvel is owned by Disney, so they could have used that as a Disney element. However, I'm most likely wrong; I just thought they were similar.

forgive the nit picking but far from home not home coming

anyway i took it to mean the dandelions, sure it could have been the foretellers but its not exactly clear who it is theyre referring too. now we already know empher and co have entered another world, a world of data and a world that doesnt exists in their time. of course theres plenty to suggest that both these worlds are on "their side". but we dont know know the nature of the WiR worlds, it is curious that the only unreality world we know of is set in a video game as well. which is why part of wonders if the WiR worlds are also in the unreality.

[Dagesh Lene 366]

12 hours ago, ocean's rage said:

forgive the nit picking but far from home not home coming

anyway i took it to mean the dandelions, sure it could have been the foretellers but its not exactly clear who it is theyre referring too. now we already know empher and co have entered another world, a world of data and a world that doesnt exists in their time. of course theres plenty to suggest that both these worlds are on "their side". but we dont know know the nature of the WiR worlds, it is curious that the only unreality world we know of is set in a video game as well. which is why part of wonders if the WiR worlds are also in the unreality.

I don't think that just because something is fictional in reality necessarily means that it exists in unreality. I think that all we can say for sure is that something that exists in unreality can manifest in reality as fiction. Also, couldn't Tron also be considered to be a videogame world or sorts? Yet the programs in that world exist in reality and have hearts. Therefore, I don't think we can say for sure that the worlds of Wreck-It Ralph exist in unreality.

[ocean's rage 772]

23 minutes ago, Dagesh Lene said:

I don't think that just because something is fictional in reality necessarily means that it exists in unreality. I think that all we can say for sure is that something that exists in unreality can manifest in reality as fiction. Also, couldn't Tron also be considered to be a videogame world or sorts? Yet the programs in that world exist in reality and have hearts. Therefore, I don't think we can say for sure that the worlds of Wreck-It Ralph exist in unreality.

hence all the hedging i did in my statement it is after all just a theory i wasnt saying it for sure. but do remember that ansem describes unreality as a fictional world so in theory some that is fictional in reality could exist in unreality if indeed it is fiction. but even ansem said it was just a hypothesis 

[Double OKP 171]

15 hours ago, ocean's rage said:

forgive the nit picking but far from home not home coming

Haha whoops I'll fix that

[Dagesh Lene 366]

5 hours ago, ocean's rage said:

hence all the hedging i did in my statement it is after all just a theory i wasnt saying it for sure. but do remember that ansem describes unreality as a fictional world so in theory some that is fictional in reality could exist in unreality if indeed it is fiction. but even ansem said it was just a hypothesis 

Yes, I think it is a possibility that many things that are fictional in reality actually exist in unreality. I also think that if this is true, then it would go both ways. What is reality to the people living in one world may be fictional to the people living in the other world and visa versa. Also, even though Ansem the Wise said that it was just a hypothesis, I have no reason to doubt that it is true. After all, why would we be told information that is revealed at the end of game and is clearly setting up for the next game that is not true?

Edited December 27, 2020 by Dagesh Lene

[ocean's rage 772]

5 hours ago, Dagesh Lene said:

Yes, I think it is a possibility that many things that are fictional in reality actually exist in unreality. I also think that if this is true, then it would go both ways. What is reality to the people living in one world may be fictional to the people living in the other world and visa versa. Also, even though Ansem the Wise said that it was just a hypothesis, I have no reason to doubt that it is true. After all, why would we be told information that is revealed at the end of game and is clearly setting up for the next game that is not true?

well ive learned to never assume you know where KH is going with the story. though i did predict most of the real organization. whatever the nature of this unreality is its gonna be really strange i think 

[Dagesh Lene 366]

10 hours ago, ocean's rage said:

well ive learned to never assume you know where KH is going with the story. though i did predict most of the real organization. whatever the nature of this unreality is its gonna be really strange i think 

This is true. We should never assume that we know where the story is going, but in this case, I think it is safe for us to assume that Ansem the Wise's hypothesis is correct since it seems to be setting up the next game.

As for the original question, I think that the ancient masters are most likely referring to either the Foretellers or the Union Leaders.

Even though the Foretellers are called the lost masters in KH3, it's possible that this may just be another name for them. Plus, Master Yen Sid only told King Mickey to investigate how the new world relates to ancient masters, not to find them and get help from them. So, even if the Foretellers are helping the Master of Masters, it would not interfere with King Mickey's mission.

It is also possible that the Union Leaders are the ancient masters since they are the only ones who we know for sure crossed over into another world. However, what they crossed over into was another worldline, which appears to be part of reality, just an alternate version of it. This does not seem to match up with what Ansem the Wise was describing, so, if I were to make a guess, I would say that the ancient masters are referring to the Foretellers and they were summoned back by Luxu from the other world. Plus, they did fade back into existence, kind of like how Sora faded out of existence, indicating that they may have indeed been returning from the other world.

[Double OKP 171]

2 minutes ago, Dagesh Lene said:

Even though the Foretellers are called the lost masters in KH3, it's possible that this may just be another name for them. Plus, Master Yen Sid only told King Mickey to investigate how the new world relates to ancient masters, not to find them and get help from them. So, even if the Foretellers are helping the Master of Masters, it would not interfere with King Mickey's mission.

So, the knowledge of the ancient times, a.k.a. the age of fairytales, has been passed down through generations of Keyblade wielders. Master Odin taught his pupils of the ancient past and darkness. Also, as seen in DDD, Yen Sid is knowledgeable of the ancient Keyblade War. But in the beginning of KHIII, Xehanort talks about the Lost Masters with Eraqus, though the latter has no clue who they are. 

Quote

Xehanort: So...you know the Lost Masters?

Eraqus: Who?

Xehanort: They're the ones who started the Keyblade War.

Eraqus: Never heard of 'em. Where'd you hear about that?

Xehanort: Or...they're the ones for whom the war started.

If the modern Keyblade Masters truly knew who the Lost Masters were and called them the 'ancient Keyblade Masters', they would certainly know that they were the ones who started the Keyblade War, right? Odin taught his pupils of the ancient times; they even know that the Book of Prophecies projected Heartless from the future in ancient times. So if the Lost Masters were really known, how come 'the ones who started the Keyblade War' doesn't ring a bell for Eraqus? The Lost Masters are rarely spoken of, and I think it's because during the age of fairytales, the Keyblade wielders went about on daily missions for their Unions, but they didn't really interact with the Foretellers. They never learned about the behind-the-scenes, in other words, the events of Back Cover. So it would be plausible that the knowledge of the Foretellers wasn't passed down to the future generations of Keyblade wielders, which could be why Eraqus, Odin, etc. don't know about them. Xehanort, on the other hand, had interactions with the Master of Masters, so it's entirely plausible he learned about the Lost Masters from him, himself being one. BUT...this is just a theory and I went and rambled off again.

[Dagesh Lene 366]

14 hours ago, Double OKP said:

So, the knowledge of the ancient times, a.k.a. the age of fairytales, has been passed down through generations of Keyblade wielders. Master Odin taught his pupils of the ancient past and darkness. Also, as seen in DDD, Yen Sid is knowledgeable of the ancient Keyblade War. But in the beginning of KHIII, Xehanort talks about the Lost Masters with Eraqus, though the latter has no clue who they are. 

If the modern Keyblade Masters truly knew who the Lost Masters were and called them the 'ancient Keyblade Masters', they would certainly know that they were the ones who started the Keyblade War, right? Odin taught his pupils of the ancient times; they even know that the Book of Prophecies projected Heartless from the future in ancient times. So if the Lost Masters were really known, how come 'the ones who started the Keyblade War' doesn't ring a bell for Eraqus? The Lost Masters are rarely spoken of, and I think it's because during the age of fairytales, the Keyblade wielders went about on daily missions for their Unions, but they didn't really interact with the Foretellers. They never learned about the behind-the-scenes, in other words, the events of Back Cover. So it would be plausible that the knowledge of the Foretellers wasn't passed down to the future generations of Keyblade wielders, which could be why Eraqus, Odin, etc. don't know about them. Xehanort, on the other hand, had interactions with the Master of Masters, so it's entirely plausible he learned about the Lost Masters from him, himself being one. BUT...this is just a theory and I went and rambled off again.

This is a good point. However, in the conversation between Xehanort and Eraqus that you quoted, this is what followed:

Quote

Eraqus: I'm not following you.

Xehanort: You can drop the facade.

Eraqus: Facade?

Xehanort: "On that land shall darkness prevail and light expire." A prospective Keyblade Master should know this.

Eraqus: If you say so.

I'm not entirely sure what Xehanort was accusing Eraqus of playing dumb about. Was he accusing Eraqus of pretending not to follow his logic? Was he accusing Eraqus of pretending not to know who the Lost Masters are? It's a little confusing to me, but I think it is possible that he may have been accusing Eraqus of playing dumb about the Lost Masters since they were what Xehanort was talking to him about. That being said, it is also possible that Xehanort heard of the Lost Masters for the first time from the Master of Masters, so maybe he was just accusing Eraqus of not following his line of logic. However, Xehanort's shock in that scene in Re:Mind may have been shock that a Lost Master was right in front of him, not that the Lost Masters existed at all, meaning that he may have already known of them by that time. Long story short, I'm not entirely sure that we can say for sure that no one other than Xehanort knows about the Lost Masters.

Additionally, even if no one knows of the Lost Masters, I think it is possible that they still may know them as the ancient masters. I think that they may just not know much about them. They may not have known who the ancient masters were or what they did, they may have just known that they existed and stories of them crossing over into another world may have been one of the only things about them that have been passed down.

I may be wrong about all of this, but I think that it is still a possibility. I also think that it is possible that the ancient masters may be referring to the Union Leaders, and I think that there is evidence for and against both possibilities.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Dagesh Lene

[Double OKP 171]

On 12/28/2020 at 11:42 AM, Dagesh Lene said:

This is a good point. However, in the conversation between Xehanort and Eraqus that you quoted, this is what followed:

Quote

Eraqus: I'm not following you.

Xehanort: You can drop the facade.

Eraqus: Facade?

Xehanort: "On that land shall darkness prevail and light expire." A prospective Keyblade Master should know this.

Eraqus: If you say so.

I'm not entirely sure what Xehanort was accusing Eraqus of playing dumb about. Was he accusing Eraqus of pretending not to follow his logic? Was he accusing Eraqus of pretending not to know who the Lost Masters are?

Hmm...I know the KH novels aren't considered fully canon but in the KHIII one, it suggests it was hard to tell if Eraqus truly didn't know or if he was simply faking it, which could be why Xehanort said that. 

Everything is very unclear at this point; Dark Road should give us some clarification.

I'm placing my bets on the Dandelions and the Union Leaders being the ancient masters. Speaking of the Union Leaders, I wonder if stories were ever passed down of those several Union Leaders and one Dandelion who suddenly vanished.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Double OKP

[Dagesh Lene 366]

On 12/28/2020 at 6:32 PM, Double OKP said:

I'm placing my bets on the Dandelions and the Union Leaders being the ancient masters. Speaking of the Union Leaders, I wonder if stories were ever passed down of those several Union Leaders and one Dandelion who suddenly vanished.

Well, if the Dandelions and Union Leaders are the ancient masters, then I think that it would be safe to say that the stories of them vanishing did pass down since the stories of the ancient masters crossing over into another world would have most likely been about that. No matter who the ancient masters are though, I'm sure that some of the Dandelions or Union Leaders who made it back were the ones who told the stories since they would have been the only Keyblade wielders left that we know of who knew about what happened.