More MoM Answers Than You Even Want

[Double OKP 171]

19 minutes ago, setsugekka said:

Exaaactly. I think that's why we got that whole scene of him meeting Riku in Re:Mind. If Demyx is the MoM and Riku met him in Quadratum, there wouldn't be any impact for Riku if he'd never met Demyx before. He'd just stare at him like "Okay. Who're you?" But now he'll be like "wtf, DEMYX?" (And then Xigbar takes the phone to talk to Riku because he's the tsukkomi of this duo.)

It's interesting 'cause in KHIII, Riku just runs off after telling Sora he's going off after Ansem SOD. I think they intentionally added the Demyx scene to foreshadow a future meeting

18 minutes ago, setsugekka said:

Vanitas is clearly very hard for Sora and Ventus to talk to. lol If you think about the way that everyone reacts to Demyx, they think he isn't normal. Sora's first reaction is even "You're bizarre." I don't think it's a coincidence that Xigbar is the only person who seems unfazed by his strangeness.

I wonder if Xigbar would have any clue that Demyx is the MoM... What would his reaction be if he didn't know and then found out lol

[setsugekka 162]

1 minute ago, Double OKP said:

I wonder if Xigbar would have any clue that Demyx is the MoM... What would his reaction be if he didn't know and then found out lol

Ah, you're asking the real questions now. This is my favorite. lol

I think Demyx might've felt familiar to him, but I don't think Xigbar had any reason to suspect that he was the MoM. I think his reaction would be like "IT'S YOU?! I can't believe-... No, I can. I can believe this. Goddammit... You got me again." Everything the MoM does leaves Luxu exasperated, so this would probably be no different. It's the ultimate prank.

[Double OKP 171]

That would be the most roasting moment in KH history?

[setsugekka 162]

I feel like sharing a curious observation.

If you've played Final Fantasy VII Remake, you'll be familiar with Leslie and Roche. I'm not sure if the two games are necessarily connected, but I gotta say...

This is weird, right? LOL

Yozora and Leslie have the same voice in Japanese. I'm guessing that Roche might've been voiced by SuzuKen had it not been for the fact that he already voices Zack.

I think it's probably just a Neat Thing For People To Notice. A friend suggested that it's like Tezuka's star system, so Nomura's making the "same" characters play different roles in other games like they're actors. That makes sense to me. That was the idea behind Axel looking similar to Reno. I think that's probably what's going on here, but it still makes me go ??? 

Minor spoilers...

Leslie is a sullen guy who's looking for his fiancée who left him with a pendant of a flower. Tifa told him that she's sure he'll see her again because the flower is a symbol of "reunion." So, you can see the parallel between him and Yozora pretty easily. Right down to the design of his clothes, he is the boy.

Meanwhile, Roche is like... The weirdest, most cartoonishly over-the-top Soldier ever??? (He defies physics with his motorcycle...) Even in a game like FF7 full of weird characters, he's ESPECIALLY WEIRD and leaves Cloud quite bewildered. It's hard to understand how he even keeps his job when he clearly doesn't take it seriously. He becomes obsessed with Cloud after racing him and seems to think of himself as his rival now or something. I'm really curious about where this is going... And what this might be suggesting about Demyx and Sora.

There is some more I could extract from him... Like the fact that he's a legitimate Soldier, unlike Cloud, but he's............ uh. Not... very good... at being a Soldier? Right? He's kinda........... just doing his own thing?? He's definitely not what Cloud was imagining a Soldier to be when he was younger. Roche makes being a Soldier look like a joke. I don't think Sora is ever going to have the title of keyblade master, and that's because he doesn't need it - like how Cloud doesn't need to have the title of "Soldier" to exemplify what a Soldier should be. I think Demyx is going to do for "keyblade master" what Roche does for "Soldier." That checks out, right?

Roche and Leslie don't seem like bad guys, so I think that's something else to think about. Roche is a bit of a nuisance, though. lol

[setsugekka 162]

I briefly mentioned the Nox Suzaku before (aka, "the Darkness of the Dominion" or however you want to translate its original name), but there's a lot more I could say about it.

The Nox Suzaku is exclusive to Type-0. I mentioned that it's an entity from another world. It seems like it was attracted to the world of Orience because of its war - particularly, because of the amount of death it causes. When a living creature dies, it releases "phantoma", which is like soul energy. The average person doesn't know about phantoma, but Class Zero know about it and are able to harvest it... Kinda like Lux. So whenever you kill any living person or creature, you can extract the phantoma from their corpse.

Eventually, the Nox Suzaku will start stealing ALL of the phantoma before you can collect any of it. At which point, you either have to find it with the airship and fight it or... Keep feeding it phantoma until it's satisfied.

So, that........... gives me some thoughts...

Like, what IS the importance of Lux?

Class Zero collect phantoma because Mother can use it to repopulate the world after it starts over. At the end of the world, the Rursus slaughter everyone because (short of acquiring Agito), Gala intended to use the influx of soul energy to reveal Etro's Gate. The latter sounds very keyblade war.

I'm not sure what's what here... But I'm feeling something.

Anyway, LOOK AT THIS!

(Name is "The Extinguished (Jack)")

Here's a better look at the model. There's one for each cadet. I'm just using Jack as an example. The aesthetic makes me think of the Anti-Black Coat and the Darklings combined.

When you engage the Nox Suzaku, you're sucked into its void. Inside the void are the souls it's consumed, and some of them appear to be the souls of the cadets from previous cycles. (Well, that's just a theory. But what ELSE would they be??) In the game, they look like transparent SP units, but the Ultimania shows the unused models that were supposed to be there along with all of their stats.

Kinda freaky to think about there being cycles where the Nox Suzaku captured the cadets and turned them into those things...

You can only fight the Nox Suzaku on your second playthrough. It shows up at the beginning of the game in the first playthrough, but then it kinda disappears forever... But then it comes back in your second playthrough and becomes a constant menace where it's always trying to steal phantoma. And it's all unexplained!! There's no explanation for this thing!! It has NOTHING to do with the plot!!

In Terra's character file story, he talks about what happened to him after Xehanort took over his body...

Quote

I wasn’t asleep like Ven was. It wasn’t the Realm of Sleep—I wasn’t dreaming, I was just in a world of nothingness. And that void became pain and sorrow and anger that rushed over me. All I could do is writhe in its grasp. Maybe that place was like the world where Unversed came from. A void that only takes in grief and suffering. A world where hope and joy could never exist.

The void was like the darkness, but also not. Nothing could spring forth from there. And all I could do in that world is wait. I can no longer remember what I thought, what I did, in that world; I just waited. No, that’s not quite right. I believed. In our promise.

(Translation from Cherrim.)

Sounds like the Nox Suzaku's void if you ask me. The game calls the area inside of it "Abyssal Darkness." I forget what it was called exactly, but the water in the Realm of Darkness where Aqua fell in and turned into Dark Aqua has a similar-sounding name, though it's only mentioned in the Japanese version. YMX seems to be talking about the same place when he tells Sora what will happen to him if he abuses the Power of Waking.

*Petscop clap sfx* "A void that only takes in grief and suffering"... *looks at Demyx's story where he talks about only wanting to do things he finds enjoyable* ...Hm. If nothing else, I would say that the natures of Demyx and Vanitas are diametrically opposed. Not sure if there's something else there... Suspicious.

There's this one interpretation of the Nox Suzaku that I really enjoy, which is that it's called the "Darkness of the Dominion" because it's literally an accumulation of Rubrum's own darkness. The reason it's so powerful is because it's been feasting on the souls of all the people killed by Rubrum. It's not called "the Darkness of Milites" or "the Darkness of Concordia." Regardless of its origins, it's RUBRUM'S own personal darkness now. It won't leave them alone and it's threatening the whole world now because tHEY JUST CAN'T STOP KILLING PEOPLE.

tbh, fighting the Nox Suzaku is so hard, I personally find it easier to just let it keep stealing phantoma from me. When I did that, it made me think about the MoM's "truce" with Darkness again. Like, should I feel bad for letting it take these souls? lol I got tired of fighting it, though. It always comes back. You can't permanently defeat it. I feel like the Nox Suzaku would start calling me its "friend", too, if I started willingly feeding it souls to keep it away...

I'm not even kidding when I say that the game suggests this as a VIABLE COURSE OF ACTION.

Go ahead! SEE WHAT HAPPENS! lol The thought of the MoM sacrificing kids to Darkness to appease it is both terrifying and kinda hilarious. Maybe it started with Lux from Heartless and then got out of control...?

So, idk if this one is just a coincidence, but I could see KH's Darkness being a combination of Gala and the Nox Suzaku.

Hey, speaking of darkness, there's this one quote I found from Agito. I don't think there's more to it. Pretty sure this is it. But it gives me serious questions.

Quote

Trey: In this world, wherever there is light, there will be darkness. Sacred light and pitch-black darkness are of synonymous existence. For our next research meeting, I'd like to discuss the darkness in the light.

Haha whaaaat... What do you MEAN they're of "synonymous existence"...? You can't just drop a line like that on me and shut the game down!!

Anyhow, I'm a little hesitant to believe that the Nox Suzaku is involved in the khux recipe because it's not in Agito. But I'm also not going to count it out, especially when it seems SO suspicious. It's helpful to have all the pieces even if some of them don't end up fitting the puzzle. (Sorry, that metaphor doesn't make sense, but you get the idea.) Now if we find out that the MoM has been sacrificing kids to Darkness to maintain the status quo or something, you won't be surprised. The possibility is there~

I can't really end this without showing you what the Nox Suzaku looks like.

Its heads look like phoenixes because Suzaku is a phoenix. Its legs are spiderlike. Its, uh, interior?? is filled with eyes... And the whole deal is held together inside a cage made of red gears. I don't remember if this was just a theory or something official, but I remember hearing that it might look this way because it was trying to mimic something familiar to the world of Orience. It tried to look like Rubrum's phoenix, but.......... Good Lord.

IN CONCLUSION...

Edited December 23, 2020 by setsugekka

[setsugekka 162]

There are some keywords that deserve to be dissected. I'm still working on what "guilt" could be referring to, but I feel pretty confident in the meaning behind some other words.

Let's talk about cards!

The character files labeled three people as "fools"; Xigbar, Sora, and Demyx. Xigbar's character story is actually called "The Fool." Vexen's story is about Sora's foolishness and how the unexpected actions he takes leads to the kinds of outcomes Vexen wouldn't have been able to come up with by using cold, logical thinking. That seems to be why he approached Demyx, because he realized that the most foolish one among them could probably be the one to turn the tides for them.

I'm like 99.9% sure that when they say "The Fool", they're referring to the archetype that represents the Fool arcana. There's a lot going on with that card, and it's all very interesting. It's seen as the "protagonist" of the tarot. The Fool goes on a journey through the whole tarot, experiencing what each card represents, concluding with The World. The Fool also gave birth to the "trickster" archetype. So, if you've played Persona, you get what I'm talking about here; Yu and Adachi, Ren and Akechi - that sort of "protagonist vs the character who's like a dark parallel of him."

This is where I believe "upright" and "reversed" come into play. Assuming that Sora is represented by the Fool in upright, what are Demyx and Xigbar? Are they not the same thing, but reversed? As far as medals go, I'm pretty sure Sora has always had upright medals, and Demyx and Xigbar have always been reversed. (There are some situations where a "good" character has a reversed medal, such as Xion when she was with the Organization. So it seems to reflect their alignment at a given time.)

Fun fact: The Jack and Joker are trickster cards. That's because they can change and act like other cards when played.

Needless to say, you can see how that's relevant to Jack and Lean Joker. They're both very unpredictable, two-faced characters. Jack is basically whoever he needs to be depending on the situation, and Lean is sometimes literally pretending to be a whole different person in order to sneak around and perform his role. It's the same deal for Demyx and Xigbar. That's what makes them tricksters, and it's just one of the things that makes them Fools.

If you're as intrigued by this as I am, here's a good video about The Fool. Listen to that. Then read Vexen's story if you haven't. *chef kiss* ? 

Next is the word "wildcard." I'm STILL trying to pin down what exactly Nomura was going for with the card Luxord gave to Sora. I mean, this isn't Persona, but I know that at least in Persona, the "wild card" ability is something unique to the protagonists. In Type-0, Ace has a move called "Wildcard" that works a little like Noctis's warp-strike. That's the only instance of the word in Type-0 I can think of, but it seems unrelated. Literally-speaking, a wildcard is a card that can act as a substitute for another card. So... That's a connection to the Jack and Joker. It may represent Luxord's acknowledgement of Sora as someone important. But it probably also does something funky. *shrugs* Maybe I'm missing something.

BUT ANYWAY. I just enjoy how the character files were like Hmm yes Sora is a fool... But Demyx is also obviously a fool, too... HMMM, have you ever considered that they have things in common?? Have you thought about that at all? Well, now you're thinking about it~

And that's, like, not even a weird comparison. It's not coming from out of nowhere.

I think that Demyx and Xigbar are supposed to be like the dark parallel of Sora and Riku. (I think that's what the Foretellers are supposed to be in general.) And I'm... actually kinda willing to question if this was always meant to be the case...

Do you remember that time in the Land of Dragons where Sora was chasing after Riku? Later, he cornered someone in a black coat and reached out to them, thinking that it had to be Riku, but... It was actually Xigbar! At the time, that moment served no purpose beyond being a fakeout. But if you look back now, it seems like Nomura might've been trying to compare Riku and Xigbar. But ~why~? (Because he's the MoM's "Riku." Good boy who goes down a dark path?? Here you go.)

Okay, so... Let me blow your mind with this one. ...What was Demyx actually doing in the Underworld? Doesn't it seem like he was there to do the same thing that Sora was doing? When you first see him, he's running away from the depths after having tried to fight Hades. He ran off and stole the Hero Stone. The next time you see him, he's standing in front of the door where Hades was keeping Meg captive. Yes, recovering Roxas was part of his mission, but I don't think that explains anything else he was doing while he was there. Regardless of why he was going to fight Hades, the point is that he was doing THE SAME THING SORA WAS DOING. The fact that he's always one step ahead almost makes it feel like he might be better at it, too.

When Phil chased after Demyx, it wasn't because he knew that Demyx was the thief. He didn't even know that anything had been stolen until Sora caught up with him and told him. Phil tells Sora that he chased after Demyx because he was looking for *AHEM* another hero who could be backup for Hercules. He didn't consider Sora who was right there. He saw Demyx and was like "Him. That's clearly the guy for the job. I gotta go get him before he leaves!" He chased him all the way into the Underworld! But then Demyx unexpectedly "turned on him." In the novels, they describe a little more about what happened and make it sound like Demyx attacked because he thought that Phil knew that he was the thief. That makes sense. But I think that part of him also wouldn't have liked the thought of being anyone's "backup." That's part of why he agrees to help Vexen - because he's told that he won't be anyone's substitute. There are a number of ways you could ultimately look at this, but I think the simplest interpretation is that Demyx has what it takes to be a hero, but something about him prevents that from happening.

I love Demyx's part in the Underworld because it makes it feel like a whole separate version of KH2 is playing out in the background, but with Demyx as the protagonist. He does all the same things as Sora, but for not for heroic reasons. It's almost like, idk, maybe in another lifetime, Demyx HAD been in Sora's position. I bet that if Demyx had been the main character, the world would've ended or something. Haha. Ha... Hm.....

Even the fact that you meet him in the UNDERWORLD and not Olympus is interesting. You could look at the Underworld as being the "reverse" of Olympus. *more chef kisses* ?? 

I think this is also why Olympus came back in KH3 and Xigbar kept going on and on about heroes. It's not just about Sora becoming "Agito", but probably also because "heroes" (read: "fools", protagonists) are going to have a certain significance going forward. That probably also includes Yozora.

[setsugekka 162]

It's time for me to decode more things. *poses*

I promise this is relevant to everything I've been talking about and you're going to enjoy it.

When Luxord shows up in Re:Mind and starts talking about goats and letters, he's making a reference to the children's song Yagisan Yubin.

Translated, the song goes like this:

A letter arrived from Mr. White Goat,
But Mr. Black Goat ate it.
Mr. Black Goat had no choice but to write a new letter.
"What did the previous letter say...?"

A letter arrived from Mr. Black Goat,
But Mr. White Goat ate it.
Mr. White Goat had no choice but to write a new letter.
"What did the previous letter say...?"

It's a song that never ends. Yes, it goes on and on, my friends. Each letter asks for what was written in the previous letter, so they're eternally getting farther and farther away from the contents of the first letter.

When you read Xigbar's character file story, it becomes a little clearer what Luxord was probably implying with that analogy.

Quote

You know it’s the height of stupidity to judge a person based on appearances, right? Well, maybe the box is the same way. Is the black box really black? What kind of black? Is it even black at all? The simpletons are just looking for a regular black box. They don’t understand what kind of box it is or what’s in it. There’s a major difference between “knowing” and “understanding”.

(Translation from Cherrim.)

First is the almost word-for-word repeating of Demyx's line from KH2. But secondly, and most importantly, it sounds like Xigbar's talking about "maya." In Hinduism, maya is the illusion that prevents people from seeing the truth of reality. The illusion encompasses everything from physical form to sensation to consciousness itself. Dispelling the illusion is necessary to reach enlightenment.

Xigbar seems aware that there are things he doesn't understand. He knows that he lost the box, obviously, but he doesn't understand why or how. Since he doesn't understand, telling anyone else to look for it is pointless. It's the blind leading the blind. Xigbar's like Mr. Black Goat sending the worthless return letter.

I was watching Jujutsu Kaisen and I heard one of the characters use the phrase "black box" to mean "something we aren't even equipped to understand." Pretty sure that's what "black box" means here. Will this help us figure out what's IN the box? Probably not. lol Just thought it was interesting.

Moving along. I became curious about how music might be related to this. After all, Nomura said that the abbreviation of "Melody of Memory" is supposed to make us think about the MoM. (But the MoM wasn't IN the game...) In the context of the game, since the game is like one big recap episode, I think it might be implying that the series itself was "composed" by the MoM. (The characters are literally running along a music staff, so the metaphor seems a bit on the nose, imo.) But I wanted to figure out what significance music holds for the MoM himself.

Basically, why does Demyx have a sitar?

It always seemed like an odd choice of instrument to me, but maybe it's not that strange anymore. The sitar is a classical Hindustani instrument used for meditation.

Here’s a quote from one of the world's most renowned sitar masters, Ravi Shankar:

Quote

Our tradition teaches us that sound is God—Nāda Brahma. That is, musical sound and the musical experience are steps to the realization of the Self. We view music as a kind of spiritual discipline that raises one’s inner being to divine peacefulness and bliss. The highest aim of our music is to reveal the essence of the universe it reflects, and the Rāgas (melodies) are among the means by which this essence can be apprehended. Thus, through music, one can reach God.

That fits so perfectly, it makes me suspicious.

I still feel like the Gazing Eye is connected to darkness, so I think it may have come from Darkness, but there's another possibility I have in mind. (And I guess it's also possible for the two possibilities to coexist.)

Quote

The third eye is often associated with religious visions, clairvoyance, the ability to observe chakras and auras, precognition, and out-of-body experiences. People who are said to have the capacity to utilize their third eyes are sometimes known as seers. In Hinduism and Buddhism, the third eye is said to be located around the middle of the forehead, slightly above the junction of the eyebrows, representing the enlightenment one achieves through meditation. (Wikipedia)

If there's anyone who can look at the box and "understand" what it really is, I'd expect it to be the guy who's been vibing out this whole time. Also, I just gotta say, Demyx has a lot of forehead real estate. Perfect place for a third eye.

Like Vexen said in his own story, there's a difference between being smart and being wise. There are limits to knowledge. Vexen was held back by the limits of what he could learn from books. That was another type of illusion. He thought he was wise, but he only knew a lot of facts. He discovered that "fools" like Sora and Demyx are the ones who are actually wise.

When Demyx's line from KH2 appears in Xigbar's story to characterize the black box, that seems like a metaphor to me. You can't judge the box by its appearance the same way you can't judge Demyx by his appearance. Which is to say, "Demyx" is an illusion. He's like the black box. The fact that Demyx knows that you can't apprehend the real truth of a thing by using your eyes is a big flag to me. At this point, that seems like a "This guy knows things even if he doesn't know that he knows things" flag.

Like the MoM said, he could be so many things. If he (metaphorically???) embodies the illusion that veils reality, then of course it's impossible to tell anyone who he is or what he's like. Each person's eyes will determine their own truth. Speaking of which, I feel like the English translation was a little Eh on that one line from Re:Mind, so here you go:

自らの目で見た事実だけを真実とすればいい。
"The truth doesn't have to be more than the reality each person sees for themselves." Or like, "It's okay if the truth is just the reality each person sees." Orrrr, "Only the facts each person sees with their own eyes needs to be the truth."

Wow, I just looked back at what the localization was and that's actually way different. rip. But basically... Most of the time, you aren't questioning reality, right? And that's fine. I think that's what he was saying. Then again, I've thought of multiple interpretations for this line, so it could be a self-demonstrating line. lol "Let it go, Xehanort-kun. Not everybody needs to understand the crippling truth of reality~ Whatever you think is true right now is sufficient~"

Will we ever know what MoM/Demyx is really like...?

Of course. Sora's a fellow fool, so he'll be able to see the truth. He already did. He called out Demyx's ruse. I find it Quite Interesting that Sora hasn't encountered him since then. Hasn't even heard about him. (tbh, I don't think Sora even knows Demyx's name. LOL)

Time is another illusion. In Xigbar's story, he also asks the reader to question when certain events happened throughout the history of the series. There's a good story in this video (53:58) about maya that seems to illustrate the same point. This could be how the MoM performed that trick where he suddenly "warped" behind Luxu without visibly moving. I think they both perceived time differently. Seeing through the illusion of time, the MoM probably calmly moved himself behind Luxu. Fooled by the illusion of time, Luxu was unable to perceive the moment between point A and point B.

Xigbar more or less states that time isn't linear??? I try not to think about that because... it's exhausting. I just tried to write an explanation of what I think it means in context, but... *shakes head in confusion*

Anyway. If nothing else, I hope everyone appreciates the fact that I found a way to make sense of this nonsense whether it's correct or not. lol

[Double OKP 171]

How do you decode this?? Things make so much more sense now, especially the MoM's connection to KHMoM!

Edited January 3, 2021 by Double OKP

[setsugekka 162]

8 hours ago, Double OKP said:

How do you decode this?? Things make so much more sense now, especially the MoM's connection to KHMoM!

Well, I still think I could be wrong in a number ways, even if I end up getting the overall idea right. lol Type-0/Agito just seems like a solid place to start from. I keep correcting myself every time we learn something new. Can't discard or discredit anything.

Speaking of which, there are some things that make me go "Hm?" but I don't know what to do with them. One is Young Xehanort referring to the black coat as "familiar." That's weird. (Possibly deja vu as a result of non-linear time?) Another is the unusual Darkside at the beginning of KH3. What is that?? It kind of looks like a water clone and a wave preceded it, so I feel like it might be related to MoMyx, but... All I can do is keep it at the back of my mind because I can't figure out a way to satisfactorily explain it. Demyx was a Nobody, so maybe that was his Heartless? Or maybe it's a new type of Heartless that comes from Quadratum, seeing as how it was encountered in the Final World which is like the bridge between realities. Or... Maybe it's both...? I'd sure love to know what's up with that. lol

[Double OKP 171]

2 hours ago, setsugekka said:

One is Young Xehanort referring to the black coat as "familiar." That's weird. (Possibly deja vu as a result of non-linear time?)

That's what I thought it was. It seems like the most plausible possibility.

 

2 hours ago, setsugekka said:

Another is the unusual Darkside at the beginning of KH3.

Yeah, I always found that weird 'cause it only appeared during Sora's training/tutorial. Maybe it was projected from Sora's memories...? I don't know either lol

[setsugekka 162]

4 minutes ago, Double OKP said:

 Maybe it was projected from Sora's memories...?

Hm. That's possible. It's really hard to figure out what it means. I remember seeing someone assume that the wave represented Riku because of the waves that appear in the other openings. But I think that the light Sora started chasing after was probably supposed to be Riku and/or Kairi, not the wave itself. Sora reached out for Riku's hand in the other openings, but then the wave tore them apart. It feels like there's something antagonistic about it.

In general, water has been used a lot of ways throughout KH, so I can't say that it has one meaning above all others. One could say it's flexible... Ever-changing... As ambiguous as the MoM himself. (I rest my case. lol)

If it was just a tutorial, that would be a lot less confusing, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the "tutorial" part really is something that actually happened. But the question is... WHEN did that scene happen? In another world line?

On a tangentially-related note... I can't wait to find out what happened to Ephemer. I heard someone suggest that Sora might be Ephemer, and, like, I... can't... say that they're wrong?? I'm curious what it means to "become unchained." Does it have something to do with reincarnation? Did Ephemer and the Player just... transcend?? Is that what the MoM did, too? Did he really go "Time to take a break!" and yeet himself into his next life???

[Double OKP 171]

4 hours ago, setsugekka said:

I can't wait to find out what happened to Ephemer.

Yeah, me too! It seems like his physical body perished some time ago but his heart/spirit remained at the Keyblade Graveyard due to his connection there. But I'm very sure he's not dead...but not 100% sure. It would be interesting if he died?...but I don't want that!

I'm not sure what unchained exactly means either. The MoM said this concerning the Dandelions:

Quote

They'll start at χ, become unchained, and fulfill their duty through Union Cross.

Like, WHAT'S THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN??? They start at χ(I think in this case it would be χ[chi])...but what does that mean?? Then become unchained...? Me confused lol. I'm still not exactly sure what Union χ[Cross] means either. 

At first I thought unchained meant to be cast into a different realm(where'd the heck I got that idea I have no clue). And I thought that Union χ[Cross] was the Unions still being one(don't know where I thought that up lol). Were these ever explained anywhere??

[setsugekka 162]

2 hours ago, Double OKP said:

At first I thought unchained meant to be cast into a different realm(where'd the heck I got that idea I have no clue). And I thought that Union χ[Cross] was the Unions still being one(don't know where I thought that up lol). Were these ever explained anywhere??

I just got really confused about this, too...

The realm the Dandelions were sent to in order to protect them from the war was referred to as the "unchained realm." It's a data world.

I can't remember if it was Player or Ephemer (or both?) but I recall someone else referring to someone as being "unchained." I think it was when Ephemer was reaching out to Player through their dreams. Might've been one of the Chirithies who said it.

This is where it gets SUPER CONFUSING AND IT HATE IT. If the wiki's telling me the truth, then there was something called "Union χ", which sounds like it's exactly what you said, the new union(s). If true, I haven't heard anyone in the story mention that by name in AGES. The title of the game is "Union χ [Cross]." The PVP is called "Union Cross." But in the story, what seems like it's meant to be the PVP is referred to as "Shift Pride" and I don't think the characters ever renamed it. All of this makes me angry.

I think the MoM was literally referring to the games. But, at the same time, the titles mean things in the story. It feeeels to me like he's talking about these things as if they're stages of enlightenment. They went from knowing nothing (X) to realizing the truth that they were in a data world (Unchained) to liberating themselves from that world. (Union Cross.) But this is still just a metaphor. It doesn't tells us much. I'm probably not even interpreting it correctly. skjhfgjhk

Edited January 4, 2021 by setsugekka

[Double OKP 171]

12 hours ago, setsugekka said:

I can't remember if it was Player or Ephemer (or both?) but I recall someone else referring to someone as being "unchained." I think it was when Ephemer was reaching out to Player through their dreams. Might've been one of the Chirithies who said it.

I think it was when Ava was disguising as a Foreteller and telling [Player] and Skuld that Ephemer was gone. But it was just Ephemer who was referred to as being unchained.

 

12 hours ago, setsugekka said:

I think the MoM was literally referring to the games. But, at the same time, the titles mean things in the story. It feeeels to me like he's talking about these things as if they're stages of enlightenment. They went from knowing nothing (X) to realizing the truth that they were in a data world (Unchained) to liberating themselves from that world. (Union Cross.)

Hmm...........speaking of liberating themselves from the data world, the MoM said something very strange. It was in the same conversation that I mentioned earlier:

Quote

Luxu: But they can come home once they're done, right?

MoM: Well...Maybe not all of them.

Maybe not all of them....Does that mean some of them are still trapped there??? Ever since I saw the post-credits scene of KHMoM, I started wondering if Quadratum could possibly be the same world....AHH I don't know!!

[setsugekka 162]

6 minutes ago, Double OKP said:

Maybe not all of them....Does that mean some of them are still trapped there??? Ever since I saw the post-credits scene of KHMoM, I started wondering if Quadratum could possibly be the same world....AHH I don't know!!

When Luxu says "home", I assume he's referring to the world the khux war took place in. He's just asking if they can come back from the "unchained realm" when it's safe.

After Lauriam's fight with Maleficent, there were five available Ark pods left for them to take. We know that Ventus, Skuld (Subject X), Lauriam, and Elrena were able to escape. I think that Brain was the one who used the last pod.

Originally, it sounds like the Ark was designed to function like the gummi ship, to traverse the space between worlds, ie world-to-world travel. That's how it functioned when Apprentice Xehanort sent Kairi to Destiny Islands. There doesn't appear to have been any time travel or world line hopping involved. This is proven by the fact that she met Aqua when she still lived in Radiant Garden. When they met up again, Aqua remembered her. Basically the same as using a gummi ship but it gives you memory loss.

However, the Ark also had the curious, seemingly accidental function of sending people to different world lines (alternate timelines/cycles.)

I think that when Brain got in the pod, it took him to the same world line as the others, but it didn't time travel. It basically just put him in a parallel world. The world he arrived in was probably nearly identical to the world line they originally came from, so he may have assumed it was the same. A war had happened there. The worlds were scattered. That's where he builds Scala ad Caelum. I could be wrong on any part of this, but the part I really question is whether or not he lost his memories. It seems like amnesia was a side-effect for everyone else who used the pods, so it would be unusual if he used the pod and then didn't suffer any memory loss. If he didn't travel very far, maybe it didn't affect him as strongly. We'll just have to put a pin in this whole thought and remember it for later.

It seems like Ventus and Skuld were sent to the same world line, too, but they might have arrived at a time that came a little earlier than Lauriam and Elrena. (Or they all arrived at the same time but were just separated.)

That means that Player and Ephemer got left behind in the "unchained realm." It was Player's mission to investigate the glitches that were coming in from Game Central Station. The glitches were what made them all believe that they were in a data world, but I'm not sure if that's entirely true. After all, Ephemer resisted the idea that they were in a data world - he believed they were in the "real world." The two of them probably continued to investigate GCS and discovered the multitudes of other "outside worlds" that were connected to it.

Aaand that would probably explain why Xehanort is aware that there's another reality.

Now, mind you, Luxu probably didn't know where any of them went when they used the pods. It sounds like he traversed MANY other world lines before he finally discovered Xehanort. This is part of the reason why I don't believe that they were sent back to the world line they originally came from.

I just remembered this line from one of Luxu's KH3 secret reports.

Quote

The virus has begun a strange undertaking: a reckless plot to allow the Five to escape into another worldline. Surely such a thing can't be possible? We're talking about the same trick that allowed the Dandelions to transfer to other worldlines after the Keyblade War. But these children are no Masters. They haven't the means...unless, of course, a certain lady of magic summoned here from the future knows more than I do.

This is confusing. When he says "We're talking about the same trick that allowed the Dandelions to transfer to other worldlines after the Keyblade War", what do you think that means? Please stop and think about it for a second before I taint your thoughts with my own. lol I'd like to know.

He's talking about the unchained realm, right? The one the Dandelions were sent to? (Wasn't that BEFORE the war, though? I think they're getting confused, too.) Instead of referring to it as a data world, he's calling it another world line. He makes it sound like it was a power held by the Foretellers that allowed them to go between worlds. tbh, I'm still unclear on what the Power of Waking is totally capable of, but something tells me it doesn't include sending dozens of kids to another world.

So here's what I propose based on this: All of Kingdom Hearts is a "digital world" (*cough*because it's a video game*cough*), within which there can be "data worlds." The unchained realm appears to have data world-like qualities (glitches) because it's receiving outside interference from GCS. Having another reality connected to their world is literally causing glitches in reality. ...tbh, the glitches might just be a visual metaphor for interference, but since it leads them to think that the world is data (I think Darkness even calls it that when talking to Maleficent), I think it's more than just a metaphor.

I tried to think about where the Foretellers have been. I need more info. Still confusing af.

Oh, so, Player and Ephemer. Yeah, I still think I might be right on that. Like, they either lived out their lives in that other world line or something allowed them to transcend it and be reborn in another world line. I rewatched the opening of Dark Road, and Xehanort really does refer to the others as his friends. It sounds like he's talking about himself, that's how much he seems to be identifying with his dreams about Player.

There's one of Cater's entries from the Rubicus in Type-0 that feels relevant. I don't think I've shared it yet, so here it is:

Quote

[Hmmm... Maybe it's a déjà vu.]

Throughout her time at Akademeia, Cater has
experienced déjà vu on a number of occasions. For
example, when Class Zero was stationed in Ingram
during the short-lived Orience-wide armistice, just
one look at the imperial capital and Cater couldn't
shake the feeling she has been there before.

Troubled by this frequently reoccurring phenomenon,
Cater consulted her classmates for advice. Queen
noted that the Nameless Tome discusses
metempsychosis on several occasions, and she
postulated that Cater's memories might be resultant
of events she had experienced in a previous life.

Cater dismisses this hypothesis with a hearty laugh.
After all, if Mother said there is nothing wrong with
her, surely there was no cause for worry. The
question remained, however, as to where exactly
these memories came from...

Kinda like Young Xehanort, right? Of course, in Cater's case, it definitely IS metempsychosis. That's just a fancy word for the migration of the soul, aka reincarnation. It's hard to imagine anything else being more likely than this.

Thinking about this has taken up my whole night. I'm sure that I'm wrong in places and the culprit is all of the unclear terminology and ambiguous, metaphorical writing.

See, listen, this is why I prefer looking at Agito. I look at that and I go, "Ah, the Foretellers. There they are. Now I can sleep without any thoughts in my head." When I think about Kingdom Hearts, it's all car crash noises.

tl;dr: I think we can assume what happened to all the Dandelion leaders, but I can't tell you whether the world the Dandelions were sent to was data and I don't know where the Foretellers have been.

[setsugekka 162]

*SPITS OUT MY COFFEE*

EPHEMER'S NAME.

His name is "Ephemera" in Japanese. Which is a plural word, meaning things that are transient. That's a word my Type-0 brain is very familiar with!

Quote

Impermanence, called anicca (Pāli) or anitya (Sanskrit) appears extensively in the Pali Canon as one of the essential doctrines of Buddhism. The doctrine asserts that all of conditioned existence, without exception, is "transient, evanescent, inconstant".

All physical and mental events, states Buddhism, come into being and dissolve. Human life embodies this flux in the aging process, the cycle of repeated birth and death (Samsara), nothing lasts, and everything decays. This is applicable to all beings and their environs, including beings who have reincarnated in deva (god) and naraka (hell) realms. (Wikipedia)

Until now, I've been kind of assuming that his soul stayed in the keyblade graveyard or something, but something about that has always felt off. He is legitimately similar enough to Sora to make me believe that he's Sora now. I feel like that makes sense, but there isn't enough to make me feel confident about it... I don't believe that Ephemer would've stayed in the keyblade graveyard and that he's just plain dead now, though. I guess there's a chance that he could come back as someone else, but when would THAT happen? I don't see any indication of that at the moment, so that feels unlikely, too.

I'm trying to think about where this could go in the future. When Skuld is back and when the others have their memories, they're going to wonder what happened to Ephemer. They might remember leaving him and Player in the other world line. It seems like the only person who could actually tell them about Ephemer is Sora.

Also, like, consider who they are. Imagine if Ephemer and Player became Sora and Xehanort, the main hero and antagonist of the series so far. There's a strong connection between both pairs. There's something tragic and poignant about the idea of them being reincarnated as enemies who change the world through their conflict. That also adds possibly the greatest significance to Player and Ephemer that they could ever be given.

If I'm allowed to just start throwing out wild theories now, I'm starting to wonder if Demyx is supposed to be the Nataraja to the MoM's Shiva. Nataraja is called "the lord of dance" and he's another form of Shiva, the three-eyed god of destruction.

Quote

An essential significance of Shiva's dance at Tillai, the traditional name of Chidambaram, can be explained as:

• First, it is seen as the image of his rhythmic or musical play which is the source of all movement within the universe. This is represented by the circular or elliptical frame surrounding Shiva.
• Secondly, the purpose of his dance is to release the souls of all men from the snare of illusion.
• Lastly, the place of the dance, Chidambaram, which is portrayed as the center of the universe, is actually within the heart. (Wikipedia)

This isn't to suggest that MoMyx is a god, just to say that if he were based on any particular figure, I think it would be Shiva Nataraja. It fits TOO well, though. When I find something that fits this well, I feel like it can't be true. But I enjoy it. So I want you to enjoy it with me. lol Shiva is known as a contradictory, paradoxical figure who appears to be both fearsome and benevolent. Reminds me of the duality of Jack, MoM, and Demyx.

This also reminds me of a quote... From Versus XIII, actually.

This post is about to go on a tangent, but follow me here.

It's a quote from Shakespeare.

Quote

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

I just got the "Re: [riplai]" DKE3713 preview book which features Versus XIII and Agito XIII, and that quote's on one of the Versus XIII pages. What's interesting to me is that that's also a major theme of Type-0 and Agito.

Here's a translation of something from one of the Agito XIII pages:

Quote

Displaying changes from the school life shown so far, the video released at DKE3713 exudes the essence of a military documentary, as shown on page 20. Gamers couldn't hide their surprise at the change, but it's part of the story's epic presentation, according to Director Tabata. This is not a story where there is good or evil in people's values.
(Director, Hajime Tabata / DKE3713)

Wow, it's almost like... Versus XIII and Agito XIII were supposed to share the same themes or something.

Speaking of the Re: book... Have people realize that's where Re:Mind probably got its name from? The index of this book includes sections titled: report, remember, recollection, re-act, recapture, and reply. In addition to the FNC games, it also features 358/2 Days and Birth By Sleep.

btw, I feel kinda weird and worry that I might be offending someone whenever I start talking about religious symbolism to support theories about video game characters, so I'll clarify that all of the terms I've used so far are also utilized in Type-0. I'm working with what that game has given me. No offense intended. Hopefully we're getting somewhere with this.

[Double OKP 171]

13 hours ago, setsugekka said:

I could be wrong on any part of this, but the part I really question is whether or not he lost his memories. It seems like amnesia was a side-effect for everyone else who used the pods, so it would be unusual if he used the pod and then didn't suffer any memory loss. If he didn't travel very far, maybe it didn't affect him as strongly. We'll just have to put a pin in this whole thought and remember it for later.

Everyone experienced amnesia except Maleficent, so I think it's possible he was able to retain his memories.

 

13 hours ago, setsugekka said:

After Lauriam's fight with Maleficent, there were five available Ark pods left for them to take. We know that Ventus, Skuld (Subject X), Lauriam, and Elrena were able to escape. I think that Brain was the one who used the last pod.

With how things turned out, I think Brain was the first one to use the pod, then Lauriam, then the rest, because Brain ended up in present day(for him, so right after the Keyblade War) while Lauriam and the rest(I'm just going to exclude Ephemer 'cause his case isn't very clear) ended up in the modern era. Lauriam encountered Maleficent and because of that, she became his waypoint. Darkness said that in order to travel forward in time(at least through the lifeboats) you need to have someone with memories of you. It went on to point out that no one in this time has that now, but everything changes once she returns to the future. I think its initial plan was to use her as its waypoint, possess Ven, and follow her into the future. And remember when Darkness led her into the lab? It urged her to leave. But she didn't and that resulted in Lauriam encountering her, which went against Darkness' plan. But Lauriam was the only one who encountered her. So wouldn't he be the waypoint for Ven, Skuld, and Elrena(possibly Ephemer as well)? And in order for Brain to not end up following them, he would have had to go before Lauriam did.

13 hours ago, setsugekka said:

It seems like Ventus and Skuld were sent to the same world line, too, but they might have arrived at a time that came a little earlier than Lauriam and Elrena. (Or they all arrived at the same time but were just separated.)

Ventus arrived the earliest, four years before BBS. Skuld arrived while Terranort was apprenticed to Ansem the Wise, so after Birth By Sleep. Lauriam and Elrena...their Organization numbers are XI and XII respectively, so they must have arrived sometime before Sora's-stabbing-heart-releasing-Kairi's-heart-turning-into-Heartless event in KH1 and Roxas's creation. 

 

13 hours ago, setsugekka said:

This is confusing. When he says "We're talking about the same trick that allowed the Dandelions to transfer to other worldlines after the Keyblade War", what do you think that means? Please stop and think about it for a second before I taint your thoughts with my own. lol I'd like to know.

He's talking about the unchained realm, right? The one the Dandelions were sent to? (Wasn't that BEFORE the war, though? I think they're getting confused, too.) Instead of referring to it as a data world, he's calling it another world line. He makes it sound like it was a power held by the Foretellers that allowed them to go between worlds. tbh, I'm still unclear on what the Power of Waking is totally capable of, but something tells me it doesn't include sending dozens of kids to another world.

Hmm...I find that weird. The Dandelions escaped to the 'data' realm just before the Keyblade War. But after...?? Whoa, I never noticed that. That...doesn't even make sense!! Is that a mistranslation? Meh confused lol. And that part about the virus doesn't make sense either. Luxu calls the impostor(who is Ven) the virus; however, Brain claimed to be the virus which would rewrite the program of the 'data' world. And he was the one who was trying to find a way to get back to the real world, not Ven! I mean, Ven doesn't even know anything about computers and such, pretty much like Sora in KHII! 

This part seriously confuses me. It contradicts what's in the games pretty much

13 hours ago, setsugekka said:

I tried to think about where the Foretellers have been.

It seems like they just vanished and then were brought back to existence in the KHIII epilogue. It feels off that they were somewhere because of what Aced says:

Quote

"What happened? Why are we here? You tell me!"

If he really was somewhere, wouldn't he know why they're there? I just find that off. And why does he ask "What happened"???

1 hour ago, setsugekka said:

I feel like that makes sense, but there isn't enough to make me feel confident about it... I don't believe that Ephemer would've stayed in the keyblade graveyard and that he's just plain dead now, though. I guess there's a chance that he could come back as someone else, but when would THAT happen? I don't see any indication of that at the moment, so that feels unlikely, too.

After Sora receives help from Ephemer and defeats the Demon Tide, he receives Starlight. I found that really weird because that's Ephemer's Keyblade! Is Ephemer with Sora??? I don't think Ephemer's dead, but it seems like his physical body perished. 'Ephemeral' literally means something short-lived. Was he just living up to his name? This all confuzzles me

1 hour ago, setsugekka said:

I'm trying to think about where this could go in the future. When Skuld is back and when the others have their memories, they're going to wonder what happened to Ephemer. They might remember leaving him and Player in the other world line. It seems like the only person who could actually tell them about Ephemer is Sora.

If Ephemer's heart/spirit is still lingering, perhaps he could use a Replica?

 

1 hour ago, setsugekka said:

btw, I feel kinda weird and worry that I might be offending someone whenever I start talking about religious symbolism to support theories about video game characters, so I'll clarify that all of the terms I've used so far are also utilized in Type-0. I'm working with what that game has given me. No offense intended. Hopefully we're getting somewhere with this.

No offense taken! This is actually a very interesting topic, seeing the connections between the story and religious symbolism.

[Nukara Rikova 50]

Interesting theory. And even though I'm not a fan of the Demyx=mom theory, this theory definitely deserves the attention of fans. I was also interested in the topic of reincarnation. Foretellers are suspiciously similar in color and keyblade to the characters we know. Ira color dynamics is pretty damn similar to Riku. Aced is very similar to the addition type on Terra (their keyblades are almost identical to each other), Invi has a lot in common with Aqua ,in the same Back Cover, she used water abilities that are identical to Aqua, and the medal attacks in KHUX Aqua and Invi are very similar. Regarding Gula and Ava, what if it's Roxas and Namine. Regarding Ava, as far as I know, she could erase the memory of others. And maybe Namine will also become keyblafe wielders in the future ? Roxas has something in common with Gula. In terms of abilities, they are both quite agile and fast. As well as black and white (Although closer in the shades of grey ) The Gula mask resembles the Roxas chess motif. (Plus, this is a good chance to tie Roxas and Namine to a new arch ,so the same Lea and Isa already have a connection with Subject X) It's just that this theory has been bothering me for a long time ,foretelles and the characters we know are suspiciously too similar to each other. In terms of designs, strength and even there are common traits of characters. And your theory made me think about it again.

[Double OKP 171]

1 hour ago, Nukara Rikova said:

Regarding Ava, as far as I know, she could erase the memory of others. And maybe Namine will also become keyblafe wielders in the future ?

When did that happen? If you're thinking of the Dandelions' brainwash, then that was the MoM's power(I think?). And honestly, I don't see Naminé becoming a Keyblade wielder but...you never know!

Edited January 6, 2021 by Double OKP

[Double OKP 171]

On 1/4/2021 at 2:41 PM, Double OKP said:

I think it was when Ava was disguising as a Foreteller and telling [Player] and Skuld that Ephemer was gone. But it was just Ephemer who was referred to as being unchained.

 I found the place. It was when Ava was talking to [Player]'s Chirithy after their first encounter. She says this:

Quote

"He's fallen into an unchained state and now finds himself in a different realm. From that realm, I believe he tried reaching out to him."

Hmm...

[setsugekka 162]

3 hours ago, Double OKP said:

After Sora receives help from Ephemer and defeats the Demon Tide, he receives Starlight. I found that really weird because that's Ephemer's Keyblade! Is Ephemer with Sora??? I don't think Ephemer's dead, but it seems like his physical body perished. 'Ephemeral' literally means something short-lived. Was he just living up to his name? This all confuzzles me

I shall explain how hearts and souls work in the Fabula Nova Crystallis series! (If you already know, I'm still going to explain it for anyone else~) I've been referring to them separately so far because I think it's the same type of thing going on here. I could be wrong, but that's how it looks.

When a person dies, their soul persists and is reborn in a new body with a new heart. The heart is like a container for the soul. The soul is the "essence of humanity" (the thing that carries their memories and the weight of their life's actions/karma) and the heart is "the essence of the person" (the thing that gives them personality and makes each life unique.)

Yeul from FFXIII-2 is a prime example. She was continually reborn. Although she always looked the same and generally acted the same, there were differences in her personality that made each version of her unique to Caius, her guardian. He acknowledged that they were all Yeul, but they each had their own lives that made each of them their own person.

Again, I'm not going to say that this IS the case, but if we assume that Xehanort is a reincarnated Player, then they would be two hearts that possessed the same soul.

4 minutes ago, Double OKP said:

I found the place. It was when Ava was talking to [Player]'s Chirithy after their first encounter. She says this:

Huuuuh? I knew I remembered hearing that, but........... That isn't quite the way I remembered it, huh... Well, I guess I was wrong to refer to that whole world line as the "unchained realm." My points about the world line still stand, though, seeing as how the name has little to do with it. lol

Hm........ So there's some other realm? Man, I'm really confused again. I'm going to have to find those scenes. Big thanks for finding that. We're going to solve this! Nomura can't stop us!!

9 minutes ago, Nukara Rikova said:

Interesting theory. And even though I'm not a fan of the Demyx=mom theory, this theory definitely deserves the attention of fans. I was also interested in the topic of reincarnation. Foretellers are suspiciously similar in color and keyblade to the characters we know. Ira color dynamics is pretty damn similar to Riku. Aced is very similar to the addition type on Terra (their keyblades are almost identical to each other), Invi has a lot in common with Aqua ,in the same Back Cover, she used water abilities that are identical to Aqua, and the medal attacks in KHUX Aqua and Invi are very similar. Regarding Gula and Ava, what if it's Roxas and Namine. Regarding Ava, as far as I know, she could erase the memory of others. And maybe Namine will also become keyblafe wielders in the future ? Roxas has something in common with Gula. In terms of abilities, they are both quite agile and fast. As well as black and white (Although closer in the shades of grey ) The Gula mask resembles the Roxas chess motif. (Plus, this is a good chance to tie Roxas and Namine to a new arch ,so the same Lea and Isa already have a connection with Subject X) It's just that this theory has been bothering me for a long time ,foretelles and the characters we know are suspiciously too similar to each other. In terms of designs, strength and even there are common traits of characters. And your theory made me think about it again.

I would try to examine these comparisons more deeply. I've heard of this idea before. The comparison of Ira to Riku is the worst for me. Assuming Gula to be any form of Roxas or Ventus when Ventus was RIGHT THERE feels very strange. I think that when people make these comparisons, they forget about Luxu because they assume "Well, we know he's Xigbar", but who is he supposed to "be" here if everyone else is supposedly someone else we already know?

I think they're just supposed to share some similarities as a way to compare the two groups. Parallels don't have to be perfect. For instance, I think Xigbar is supposed to be like Riku. He's the one closest to the MoM. Ira isn't like anyone and that's okay. It's good to have a character with unique behavior and a unique personality. I agree that Aced is supposed to be compared to Terra with their gullibility. Invi could easily be compared to Aqua with their adherence to rules. You could compare Ava to Kairi for their belief in MoM and Sora respectively. Gula also isn't really comparable to anyone based on personality, but his color-coding does suggest that he could end up having a relationship with Roxas or Ventus, possibly as a rival.

So, see, it doesn't have to be perfect if you're just making comparisons. Which is to say, in some respects, Sora and his friends are LIKE Jack and his friends from Class Zero. Replace any of the names of the Foretellers above with the names of the cadets and it's the same comparison because their characterization is that similar. lol

I think it's easy to compare Trey and Queen (Ira and Invi), so maybe that means that they would both be contrasted against Aqua who has grown and learned where she went wrong in BBS. There's something each of the Foretellers could learn from Sora and his friends.

Speaking of characterization, I don't think I've shared this yet. I really enjoyed Jack's lost chapter from DFFOO. I like how other characters recognize him as a genius for his level of laziness in this universe. Also, the way that he and Deuce tease Machina reminds me of how Ava and the MoM teased Aced. Adorable stuff!

[setsugekka 162]

Okay, I found the part. Assuming Everglow's translation is correct, this makes more sense.

This takes place after Ephemer had been sent to the other world line. So he WAS reaching out to Player from another world, but he was doing so from within their dreams. Ava says this in Everglow's video:

Quote

"Ephemera is closing in on the truth. He is in another space besides the free one that we called "Unchained," and I think he tried reaching out to this wielder. If that dream and Ephemera are connected, then I think that this wielder is also closing in on that space. Whether he continues can only be decided by his own heart."

"The truth"? Kinda sounds like what I've been talking about. Y'ALL BECOMING ENLIGHTENED OVER THERE? Y'ALL ABOUT TO TRANSCEND?

btw, I thought this was obvious. (idk if it's TRUE, but it seems like an obvious assumption nonetheless.) idk if other people have thought of it, so I'll mention it just in case. I'm pretty sure the Dark Chirithy belonged to Xehanort. That would explain why the Dark Chirithy also claimed to belong to Player. He told him that they would meet again in a dream or whatever. The fight vs the Nightmare Chirithy had the same boss music as the Anti Black Coat. So there you go, maybe. That doesn't really explain how the Dark Chirithy got there, but I guess I can handwave it for now by assuming that Chirithies are just special, especially if their wielder has another heart in the future.

Anyway, considering what the MoM told Luxu about "becoming unchained", I'm not sure if he expected all of the Dandelion leaders to become unchained or just these two. Maybe the others are, also? But Player and Ephemer seem special in this regard.

Edit: In an earlier scene, Player's Chirithy was showing him a dream of a meeting between the Foretellers. In the dream, Player tried to enter the room. When he did, darkness appeared under his feet, causing him to wake up. The Player's Chirithy accuses the Dark Chirithy of being the one who interfered with the dream and remarked that they were going to become enemies. Apparently Player's Chirithy was trying to "protect" him.

God, it's so hard to figure out when scenes take place, but I could've sworn the Player's Chirithy was showing him those dreams because Ava told it to... Am I misremembering? In any case, it seems like his Chirithy was trying to literally show him the truth by giving him insider info.

Edit of an edit: Yeah, I think I misremembered that part. lol

Edited January 6, 2021 by setsugekka

[Double OKP 171]

36 minutes ago, setsugekka said:

Hm........ So there's some other realm? Man, I'm really confused again. I'm going to have to find those scenes. Big thanks for finding that. We're going to solve this! Nomura can't stop us!!

I was watching a Youtube video titled 'Sora and Riku were in the Unchained State Kingdom Hearts theory' by Youtuber The Secret Reports, who was talking about the unchained state. That scene started playing in the background because Secret Reports was talking about the unchained state in KHUX. I immediately paused the video and typed the quotes down which is why I didn't finish the video lol. I better finish it, might have more information.

Yeah we're gonna solve this!!?

[setsugekka 162]

Just now, Double OKP said:

Yeah we're gonna solve this!!?

Ha, I posted one second too soon. See my above comment now ? 

[Double OKP 171]

31 minutes ago, setsugekka said:

I'm pretty sure the Dark Chirithy belonged to Xehanort. That would explain why the Dark Chirithy also claimed to belong to Player. He told him that they would meet again in a dream or whatever. The fight vs the Nightmare Chirithy had the same boss music as the Anti Black Coat. So there you go, maybe. That doesn't really explain how the Dark Chirithy got there, but I guess I can handwave it for now by assuming that Chirithies are just special, especially if their wielder has another heart in the future.

Hmm...that could be possible. Never knew about the boss music(because I almost never pay attention to the background music lol)!

I've been wondering who Dark Chirithy really is. He said he came from the dark energy collected by [Player]'s bangle...but that's a lie because, well, Dark Chirithy gave him the bangle. So...where did he truly come from? Damo279 theorized that he could be a Darkness, which is another possibility. Ah I'm not sure, this all very confuses me

37 minutes ago, setsugekka said:

Ha, I posted one second too soon. See my above comment now ? 

Haha, we posted almost at the exact same time lol