Axel and Saix

[SweetYetSalty 330]

On 1/19/2019 at 8:46 PM, ienzo628 said:

Days also revealed some information about Saix where he came into Axel's room asking if he found the chamber.  I know they were looking for the chamber to get leverage over Xemnas.  How would the chamber of helped them though?

I am also curious as to how the Organization functioned and came to be between BBS and KH1.  Was it formed shortly after the fall of Radiant Gardens?  When did Saix become second command and what was his purpose prior to Roxas showing up?  Did he become second in command after Zexion, Lexaeus and Vexen were wiped out?

I mean, what does it even mean to be second in command in the Organization?  All Saix did throughout Days was hand out missions in the Gray Area yet his throne was higher than 4-6.  Wasn't the Organization hierarchy based on high the thrones in Where Nothing Gathers were?  How is Saix's throne so tall if we never seen him go on any missions?  Why should he concern himself with Zexion being killed off indirectly by Axel?  The guy's throne was lower than his.

I guess being second in command means you don't have to do any work. I've never seen Saix lift a finger to help Organization XIII himself. And there were plenty of chances. The biggest one: There is a imposter running around in a Organization XIII coat. He's said to be powerful and dangerous. The Organization want him to be taken out. So who do they send? Saix the second in command? Xigbar their sniper? Axel their trained assassin? Xaldin their current muscle? No, those would make sense. They send their smallest, weakest, youngest, most inexperienced member, who's only job is heart collection, to fight this unknown force, when that's not their job. Why? Why not send Saix who does nothing but stand around the Gray Area everyday to fight the imposter? It would make sense, unlike everyone else he doesn't do anything.

But the funniest thing about that is, he'll accuse others on why they shouldn't be in the Organization, but I have yet to see why he's there. Every character he's belittled or had terminated actually had a role in the Organization, what's his? Food for thought.

[LunaCatte 169]

On 1/19/2019 at 8:46 PM, ienzo628 said:

Days also revealed some information about Saix where he came into Axel's room asking if he found the chamber.  I know they were looking for the chamber to get leverage over Xemnas.  How would the chamber of helped them though?

I would honestly say that the leverage might be as simple as them knowing he was looking for it, even if they don't know why.  Xigbar shows in KHII:FM that he knew, and knew that Zexion overheard, that he talks to his "friend" Aqua in the Chamber of Repose, and that he was looking for the Chamber of Awakening for some reason. Xigbar even said he wanted it so he could "find his other 'friend'"

Saix and Axel may not have known that was the reason, but they knew Xemnas wanted the chamber. They knew he was after something withing. Even finding the chamber would be able to gain them leverage because they found it, and would therefore had knowledge that he desperately wanted. While that may not be the overall plan, and Saix might have known more about the chamber's contents, it stands to reason that they could have used it as a bargaining chip even just having FOUND it.

[TakenKing 29]

On 12/28/2018 at 6:34 PM, Allwil13 said:

Hey everyone.

There's something I've been wondering for ages now and I'm hoping it will finally be explained in KH3, but until then I'm curious to hear your theories. So in Birth by Sleep it was confirmed that Axel/Lea and Saix/Isa were best friends when they were human and we learned that they lived in Radiant Garden. So this begs the question: how/when did they become nobodies? Did they succeed in sneaking into the castle after their first attempt failed and end up getting roped into the apprentices' experiment? Or did they become nobodies when Radiant Garden was overcome by darkness? Or do you have another theory? 

Personally, I think that they managed to sneak in and ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time, being turned into Nobodies by Xehanort. It makes sense since they immediately follow the nobodies of the six apprentices in terms of rank in the Organization. 

I'm not sure if this has already been officially explained, but if it has I can't find anything to confirm it. So what do you guys think?

 

Well we don’t know the extreme details for how the experiments were conducted, so they may have been captured by Xehanort, Ienzo, Even and all those guys that were working under ansem and could’ve had extracted their hearts. They had strong nobodies so they decided to make them part of org 13 after radiant garden fell to darkness. I just came up with this so it’s a pretty raw idea.

[LunaCatte 169]

The theory that I have is that around the time that Xehanort regains his memories and releases the floor of Heartless on Radiant Garden that wound up transforming it into Hallow Bastion is when they lost their hearts and became Nobodies. Hallow Bastion came to be not long before the events of KH1, maybe only a year or two, which would have allowed Ienzo, Isa and Lea to age a bit to what we see them as in the present.

We know that Kairi wasn’t always with them on Destiny Islands, only arriving, suddenly, a few years prior to KH1 as well. So it begs to reason that the spell Aqua placed on her sent her to Destiny Islands at the same time darkness overtook the lights of Radiant Garden.

[ienzo628 548]

3 hours ago, LunaCatte said:

The theory that I have is that around the time that Xehanort regains his memories and releases the floor of Heartless on Radiant Garden that wound up transforming it into Hallow Bastion is when they lost their hearts and became Nobodies. Hallow Bastion came to be not long before the events of KH1, maybe only a year or two, which would have allowed Ienzo, Isa and Lea to age a bit to what we see them as in the present.

We know that Kairi wasn’t always with them on Destiny Islands, only arriving, suddenly, a few years prior to KH1 as well. So it begs to reason that the spell Aqua placed on her sent her to Destiny Islands at the same time darkness overtook the lights of Radiant Garden.

But didn't the fall of Radiant Gardens happen a year after BBS and what about that cutscene with Ienzo and Even laying on the floor of the lab, fading in and out of existence?

[LunaCatte 169]

58 minutes ago, ienzo628 said:

But didn't the fall of Radiant Gardens happen a year after BBS and what about that cutscene with Ienzo and Even laying on the floor of the lab, fading in and out of existence?

Oh right! I forgot Leon gave context that it was 9 years before KH1, but that doesn’t change the rest of the theory. Xehanort took over in Radiant Garden, effectively ousting Ansem the Wise shortly before Maleficent showed up with her heartless and ousted him. We know how much characters can change in a year in KH time and those characters being on the floor in the lab would make sense. A year would give Ienzo, Lea and Isa time to grow up a bit by time Xehanort takes over and releases the hearts of everyone in the lab.

(sorry I’ve been dealing with back to back sickness and pain so my mind has skipped over details in some replies I’ve done)

[ienzo628 548]

23 minutes ago, LunaCatte said:

Oh right! I forgot Leon gave context that it was 9 years before KH1, but that doesn’t change the rest of the theory. Xehanort took over in Radiant Garden, effectively ousting Ansem the Wise shortly before Maleficent showed up with her heartless and ousted him. We know how much characters can change in a year in KH time and those characters being on the floor in the lab would make sense. A year would give Ienzo, Lea and Isa time to grow up a bit by time Xehanort takes over and releases the hearts of everyone in the lab.

(sorry I’ve been dealing with back to back sickness and pain so my mind has skipped over details in some replies I’ve done)

I guess.  I just think we should be given more spotlight to what happened after BBS and before KH1.  Did Ienzo, Lee, Braig, and Isa age up prior to becoming nobodies or while they were during nobodies?  Why do the other members founding members excluding Xemnas pretty much look similar to their BBS counterparts?  A lot can happen in nine years.  And, if Ienzo, Lea, Braig, and Isa did age up during that nine years; it would go against Nomura saying that nobodies don't age.  However, it would make more sense for them to age up more so than the SRK group, which only had a year or less that passed by.

[LunaCatte 169]

10 minutes ago, ienzo628 said:

I guess.  I just think we should be given more spotlight to what happened after BBS and before KH1.  Did Ienzo, Lee, Braig, and Isa age up prior to becoming nobodies or while they were during nobodies?  Why do the other members founding members excluding Xemnas pretty much look similar to their BBS counterparts?  A lot can happen in nine years.  And, if Ienzo, Lea, Braig, and Isa did age up during that nine years; it would go against Nomura saying that nobodies don't age.  However, it would make more sense for them to age up more so than the SRK group, which only had a year or less that passed by.

Oh I fully agree. Having that information would be amazing. If anything I would say it might be possible that Nomura was only saying a half truth or something at the time and that it might be Nobodies don’t age after a certain point. But even that would be weird for an answer. Time does work in mysterious ways in the KH series though, I’m sure many of us can agree with that. Zexion, comparatively, does look younger than the others in the organization but not by much. So it’s hard to say that a year would age him that much unless his Nobody continued to age and then stopped a couple years later. I would love a more concrete timeline on this. And maybe we’ll get it with the first patch for KH3, since that’s supposedly going to have information regarding the previous entries to the series.

[ienzo628 548]

2 hours ago, LunaCatte said:

Oh I fully agree. Having that information would be amazing. If anything I would say it might be possible that Nomura was only saying a half truth or something at the time and that it might be Nobodies don’t age after a certain point. But even that would be weird for an answer. Time does work in mysterious ways in the KH series though, I’m sure many of us can agree with that. Zexion, comparatively, does look younger than the others in the organization but not by much. So it’s hard to say that a year would age him that much unless his Nobody continued to age and then stopped a couple years later. I would love a more concrete timeline on this. And maybe we’ll get it with the first patch for KH3, since that’s supposedly going to have information regarding the previous entries to the series.

I just hope we can get some flashbacks from that nine year gap in KH3.  I also think it's weird that Sora, Kairi, and Riku really didn't look their ages of 14 and 15 in Kingdom Hearts 1 much less acted like teenagers, maybe preteens but that's another thing.

I just wonder why Lea and Isa wanted to sneak into the castle.  What would they gain from that?  I can see them having their curiosity piqued with the emergence of a new scientist that appeared out of nowhere and possibly hearsay from the castle that Ansem the Wise and the other scientists were conducting experiments on said new scientist like him being from another world.  It would be similar to all those movies where the government or government agents go after some alien in the hopes of dissecting it.  But, because Xehanort is a human and KH is a kid's game, we would instead have him being experimented on in the hopes of discovering where he's from and how he came to this world.

[Allwil13 754]

Just now, ienzo628 said:

I just wonder why Lea and Isa wanted to sneak into the castle.  What would they gain from that?  I can see them having their curiosity piqued with the emergence of a new scientist that appeared out of nowhere and possibly hearsay from the castle that Ansem the Wise and the other scientists were conducting experiments on said new scientist like him being from another world.  It would be similar to all those movies where the government or government agents go after some alien in the hopes of dissecting it.  But, because Xehanort is a human and KH is a kid's game, we would instead have him being experimented on in the hopes of discovering where he's from and how he came to this world.

They were teenagers; teenagers love rebelling, and that includes sneaking into places they're not supposed to go. Like giant castles inhabited by a bunch of mysterious scientists. Plus getting in there would give them bragging rights because, y'know, I'm sure not many people would have been able to say they were able to get in there.

Honestly though, I think they were just a couple of mischievous teenagers.Admit it; we all knew those guys in high school.

[ienzo628 548]

1 minute ago, Allwil13 said:

They were teenagers; teenagers love rebelling, and that includes sneaking into places they're not supposed to go. Like giant castles inhabited by a bunch of mysterious scientists. Plus getting in there would give them bragging rights because, y'know, I'm sure not many people would have been able to say they were able to get in there.

Honestly though, I think they were just a couple of mischievous teenagers.Admit it; we all knew those guys in high school.

Yeah and it could prove to have influenced their decisions to keep an eye on Xehanort.  I mean, there were probably some rumors going around that piqued their curiosity about Xehanort and how he was not from their world.  Isa and Lea end up likely end up being caught up in the experiment on Xehanort and so they end up keeping some plan that involves overthrowing the Organization just to get back at the man that caused their situation in the first place. 

[Allwil13 754]

6 minutes ago, ienzo628 said:

Yeah and it could prove to have influenced their decisions to keep an eye on Xehanort.  I mean, there were probably some rumors going around that piqued their curiosity about Xehanort and how he was not from their world.  Isa and Lea end up likely end up being caught up in the experiment on Xehanort and so they end up keeping some plan that involves overthrowing the Organization just to get back at the man that caused their situation in the first place. 

That could very well be. With Axel/Lea's popularity, I imagine we'll be getting some expansion on his past at some point or another. Especially since it looks like he'll be a main character in the series from here on out. There are just so many questions surrounding him and Isa that have yet to be answered. Maybe that clock tower scene we saw in the BH6 trailer will answer some questions.

[ienzo628 548]

1 minute ago, Allwil13 said:

That could very well be. With Axel/Lea's popularity, I imagine we'll be getting some expansion on his past at some point or another. Especially since it looks like he'll be a main character in the series from here on out. There are just so many questions surrounding him and Isa that have yet to be answered. Maybe that clock tower scene we saw in the BH6 trailer will answer some questions.

I mean, when Lea woke up in the lab he commented that Xehanort wasn't there along with Isa.  I am curious to know about his relationship is between Isa, Lea and Xehanort.  Why did Axel go from referring to Xemnas as boss to just Xehanort?

[Allwil13 754]

1 minute ago, ienzo628 said:

I mean, when Lea woke up in the lab he commented that Xehanort wasn't there along with Isa.  I am curious to know about his relationship is between Isa, Lea and Xehanort.  Why did Axel go from referring to Xemnas as boss to just Xehanort?

He probably knew Xemnas was way stronger than him. Probably keeping his head down to stay alive. The whole organization knew that Axel was a wild card, so he probably actively tried to keep a target off his back.

Also, remember in KHII in Radiant Garden when Saix told Sora Axel would receive the "maximum punishment" for kidnapping Kairi? Did we ever find out what the "maximum punishment" was? Or if he even received it?

[ienzo628 548]

1 minute ago, Allwil13 said:

He probably knew Xemnas was way stronger than him. Probably keeping his head down to stay alive. The whole organization knew that Axel was a wild card, so he probably actively tried to keep a target off his back.

Also, remember in KHII in Radiant Garden when Saix told Sora Axel would receive the "maximum punishment" for kidnapping Kairi? Did we ever find out what the "maximum punishment" was? Or if he even received it?

I always thought the maximum punishment involved being turned into a Dusk or outright eliminated.  I mean, we did see some pages from the manga (but that is not canon) about Saix wounding Axel right before the latter sacrifices himself to protect Sora from the Dusks and to get him to rescue Kairi.

[Allwil13 754]

3 minutes ago, ienzo628 said:

I always thought the maximum punishment involved being turned into a Dusk or outright eliminated.  I mean, we did see some pages from the manga (but that is not canon) about Saix wounding Axel right before the latter sacrifices himself to protect Sora from the Dusks and to get him to rescue Kairi.

That's what I always assumed too. But at the same time, the organization's numbers were so low at that point. Wouldn't they want to avoid that at all costs?

Also, I really need to finish the KH2 manga, there's a bunch of super interesting stuff in there.

[ienzo628 548]

1 minute ago, Allwil13 said:

That's what I always assumed too. But at the same time, the organization's numbers were so low at that point. Wouldn't they want to avoid that at all costs?

Also, I really need to finish the KH2 manga, there's a bunch of super interesting stuff in there.

I mean, Axel pretty much brought up the whole "turning into a dusk" thing in KH 358/2 Days and somewhat in KH2 Final Mix.  I always thought that the whole "turning of a dusk" happened to some previous members that we don't know about.  Because, why would Axel hint at a punishment that has never been carried out against an Organization member?  It's probably pretty dumb that I think there were actually members that were turned into Dusks in order to set an example to other members when we already have all the Organization members and no mention of any former or discarded member outside of Castle Oblivion. 

Why is being "turned into a dusk" such a dreaded punishment when we have no instances of members or former members being turned into Dusks?

[Allwil13 754]

2 minutes ago, ienzo628 said:

I mean, Axel pretty much brought up the whole "turning into a dusk" thing in KH 358/2 Days and somewhat in KH2 Final Mix.  I always thought that the whole "turning of a dusk" happened to some previous members that we don't know about.  Because, why would Axel hint at a punishment that has never been carried out against an Organization member?  It's probably pretty dumb that I think there were actually members that were turned into Dusks in order to set an example to other members when we already have all the Organization members and no mention of any former or discarded member outside of Castle Oblivion. 

Why is being "turned into a dusk" such a dreaded punishment when we have no instances of members or former members being turned into Dusks?

I think that's a very real possibility. We never did see anyone get turned into a Dusk in the games, so either it happened before and the whole organization was kept in line, or Xemnas and Saix used it as a threat that was never carried out.

Or maybe it's not actually possible and they just led the organization to believe that they could turn you into a Dusk. I really wish they'd gone into more detail on this. 

It could also be that Saix was going to turn Axel into a Dusk, but for the sake of their old friendship he just roughed him up a little. 

[ienzo628 548]

8 minutes ago, Allwil13 said:

I think that's a very real possibility. We never did see anyone get turned into a Dusk in the games, so either it happened before and the whole organization was kept in line, or Xemnas and Saix used it as a threat that was never carried out.

Or maybe it's not actually possible and they just led the organization to believe that they could turn you into a Dusk. I really wish they'd gone into more detail on this. 

It could also be that Saix was going to turn Axel into a Dusk, but for the sake of their old friendship he just roughed him up a little. 

I think Xemnas is the one that carries out turning out the Organization.  He is pretty much the powerhouse of the Organization due to him being the Superior. 

Basically, I think Xemnas was about to turn Axel into a Dusk because he was not cooperating with them to bring Roxas back.  Axel not wanting to turn into a Dusk and after having Xaldin throw a lance at him, agrees.   

[Allwil13 754]

2 minutes ago, ienzo628 said:

I think Xemnas is the one that carries out turning out the Organization.  He is pretty much the powerhouse of the Organization due to him being the Superior. 

  Hide contents

 

 

Basically, I think Xemnas was about to turn Axel into a Dusk because he was not cooperating with them to bring Roxas back.  Axel not wanting to turn into a Dusk and after having Xaldin throw a lance at him, agrees.   

 

I would say that's a pretty solid theory. Makes sense.

I imagine they tried to turn him into a Dusk but he managed to get away from them and went underground until Sora and his friends reached the Betwixt and Between.

[ienzo628 548]

Just now, Allwil13 said:

I would say that's a pretty solid theory. Makes sense.

I imagine they tried to turn him into a Dusk but he managed to get away from them and went underground until Sora and his friends reached the Betwixt and Between.

I just wonder if there was any member that actually did meet their end at the end of Xemnas turning them into a Dusk.  So far, there's barely any evidence to support the "Dusk Turning of former members" theory.

[Allwil13 754]

Just now, ienzo628 said:

I just wonder if there was any member that actually did meet their end at the end of Xemnas turning them into a Dusk.  So far, there's barely any evidence to support the "Dusk Turning of former members" theory.

Maybe we'll get some expansion on that in KH3. If not, then hopefully in a future installment. Axel was a member for years, after all. He must have some freaky stories.

[ienzo628 548]

36 minutes ago, Allwil13 said:

Maybe we'll get some expansion on that in KH3. If not, then hopefully in a future installment. Axel was a member for years, after all. He must have some freaky stories.

I mean, we have very limited info on the Organization.  All we know is that Xemnas formed them but not exactly when and if there were previous members that fell out of line.  We also barely get to explore the entirety of the Organization's castle.  I mean, why does the Organization need a dungeon?

[Allwil13 754]

1 minute ago, ienzo628 said:

I mean, we have very limited info on the Organization.  All we know is that Xemnas formed them but not exactly when and if there were previous members that fell out of line.  We also barely get to explore the entirety of the Organization's castle.  I mean, why does the Organization need a dungeon?

That is a very good question. The only person we've ever seen them put in there is Kairi. 

[ienzo628 548]

1 minute ago, Allwil13 said:

That is a very good question. The only person we've ever seen them put in there is Kairi. 

And, we pretty much see her get rescued by Namine.