KHBbS What happened to Zack?

[YNT_2p2 4]

Hey, I wanna know your theories about what happened to Zack after BBS.

Mine is that, Cloud it may be from Zack what Vanitas is from Ven, some sort os vessel of darkness or maybe, Cloud is Zack's Nobody O.O

That's mine, what is yours?

[MythrilMagician 6,963]

No, Nobodies use the same bodies as their whole selves. When a strong person loses their heart, it leaves and the body remains, thus creating the Nobody. Roxas was an exception because Sora's heart is connected to Ventus's.

 

As for Cloud being the extracted darkness from Zack, that can't be it too, because there's light in his heart and his darkness is Sephiroth.

 

In truth, we don't know what happened to Zack after our encounter with him in BBS. It was never explained. Maybe we'll know in KH3.

[Oli 1,679]

if you want to know what happened to him, play crisis core. Also, if you want to have an emotional scar for the rest of your life, play crisis core.

[Philip Ellwell 5,487]

I always assumed Crisis Core happened, since Zack in BBS looks like a younger teen

[kingdombladesventus 53]

I always assumed Crisis Core happened, since Zack in BBS looks like a younger teen

 

If that happened, that wouldn't make sense. Well, in the Kingdom Hearts universe. Unless they made some parallel version of what happened in his game. Otherwise, he could be alive, like with Aerith. Because if they made him go back to Midgard-which if I remember right was the world or town-er, FF7 world, wouldn't they have to include FF worlds for that to make sense. I guess he's a mystery until KH3. Or never. Oh, also wouldn't he be older by then? Everyone in Radiant Garden got older, so why couldn't he?

[Philip Ellwell 5,487]

If that happened, that wouldn't make sense. Well, in the Kingdom Hearts universe. Unless they made some parallel version of what happened in his game. Otherwise, he could be alive, like with Aerith. Because if they made him go back to Midgard-which if I remember right was the world or town-er, FF7 world, wouldn't they have to include FF worlds for that to make sense. I guess he's a mystery until KH3. Or never. Oh, also wouldn't he be older by then? Everyone in Radiant Garden got older, so why couldn't he?

Maybe it's just a huge plothole that will never be finished. He's never seen again, so maybe the KH version of Crisis Core happened?

None of the FF characters seem to follow their FF storylines in KH (Aerith, Leon, e.t.c,) so who knows, really. 

[kingdombladesventus 53]

Maybe it's just a huge plothole that will never be finished. He's never seen again, so maybe the KH version of Crisis Core happened?

None of the FF characters seem to follow their FF storylines in KH (Aerith, Leon, e.t.c,) so who knows, really. 

 

That's what I'm sayin'! If certain characters-FF characters, survive from their FF counter part in the KH universe, then why shouldn't there be a possibility he could be alive. For all know, if we visit Radiant Garden-if we do, he might appear out of nowhere during an important moment in history-or put simply, an important moment in a cutscene.

[Philip Ellwell 5,487]

That's what I'm sayin'! If certain characters-FF characters, survive from their FF counter part in the KH universe, then why shouldn't there be a possibility he could be alive. For all know, if we visit Radiant Garden-if we do, he might appear out of nowhere during an important moment in history-or put simply, an important moment in a cutscene.

That's possible. Aerith is canonly dead in FF, but alive and well in KH, so Zack could be, as well. 

[The Transcendent Key 12,109]

No, I don't think that's the case, as it's established that, Kingdom Hearts wise, Sephiroth is Cloud's darkness, as he says it so himself! So by extension, Zack is his own person, apart from Cloud!

 

What I'm guessing that happened is that Sephiroth killed him, because if you look at the credits in Birth By Sleep, they show a shot of Zack at the gate to Olympus Coliseum, and when a black feather falls, he disappears completely...which means Sephiroth offed him? Though the way it was presented seemed more symbolic than not, so I really don't know!

 

This may be answered in Kingdom Hearts III, or maybe it'll be an eternal mystery!

Edited June 19, 2017 by The Transcendent Key

[Revolart 431]

It all depends on whether they will put him back in Kh3(kinda like the schrodinger's cat). If they do , aqua needs to go on a date with him.

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

I don't think it's quite like that. Also, Ven and Vanitas are not a Somebody and Nobody relationship, they are literally two halves of the same person split in two, one light and one dark. It's kind of like Fission in Dragon Ball, like how the Nameless Namekian was split into Piccolo and Kami or how Majin Buu was split into Good Buu and Evil Buu. No Heartless or Nobody was formed.

 

Still, the comparison to Ven and Vanitas is worth considering, when done correctly. I think what may have been the case was that Cloud was a kid in Radiant Garden the same as Leon and the rest of the gang. There's good indication of this because Aerith is already fairly familiar with Cloud in KH1 and he's pretty much an unofficial member of the Restoration Committee by KH2. Pretty sure there's already been a interview that confirms his home world being Radiant Garden as well, despite Goofy's incorrect line after the Sephiroth fight in KH2 (the KH wiki seems to support this, and while I understand those things can be edited by almost anyone, they tend to keep pretty strict standards on stuff like that, so it's pretty reliable when it comes to details like that, until official statements from Nomura suggest otherwise).

 

Regardless, let's just assume he was part of the young gang at the time before Maleficent and the Heartless ravaged the world. Now as for Zack, I'm still convinced that he is his own person in this universe. And considering how important his character was to Cloud's in FF VII, I'm almost convinced that he may have come from Radiant Garden as well. He still would have been slightly older than Cloud, so he'd be enough of a role model for Cloud to sort of mold himself from, as much as a tween would anyway. There's nothing explicitly confirming that he does come from Radiant Garden, and the fact that he shares the Hercules art style while Cloud and Auron don't kind of almost damningly suggests that the Olympus Coliseum might be his home world as well. But here's the thing, I'm still willing to bet that he came from Radiant Garden.

 

"But Hero, how can you even suggest that, you said so yourself: he's styled after the world so he must belong there." Well here's the thing, Sora has styled himself after other worlds before, but he still clearly never came from them either. Whenever he visited he always had some convenient method for blending into the particular world that may have required such a drastic makeover, be it Donald's magic in KH1 or his own magical clothes in KH2. So it's not unreasonable to assume that Zack may have gotten his hands on a similar kind of magical mcfuffin that could alter his attire enough to fit in with the residents of Olympus Coliseum. "But what about Zack's art style?" That is a fair point, clothes are one thing, but proportions are another. Zack is clearly designed as if he was straight out of the movie Hercules, despite clearly never appearing the original title. So that alone could still suggest that his actual home is Olympus Coliseum. But even then I still have a counter-argument. Take Halloween Town for example. Notice that not only do Sora and the gang change clothes whenever they show up, but they also change textures AND proportions as well. Their clothing and designs alter to match the overall Burton-esque style and tone of The Nightmare Before Christmas, even though they were never actually in the original movie, they still look as though they could have been.

 

Now sure, Sora's art style doesn't always change in each world he has to transform into to fit in, and sometimes he and the gang don't change at all despite being in drastically contrasting environments like Port Royal. But keep in mind, the rules that apply to Sora don't always apply to other characters all the time, at least not in the same ways. In the memory version of Halloween Town in Re:CoM, while Sora and the gang still take on their Halloween Town forms, Riku and Mickey have a bit of a different deal going on. They don't have any costumes of their own exclusive to that world, but their textures still change to match the environment and art style of the world. So while they aren't going the full 10 yards that Sora's team is going to fit into the world, they're at least meeting it half way by at least looking like they are animated in the same movie. But then there's Roxas and the Organization. Whenever anyone in Days enters Halloween Town, they remain exactly the same as they do in any other world. Sure, in the original DS version you could just chalk that up to a limitation of the game engine, but in the HD cutscenes in 1.5 they still use their base models. This shows that even the idea of matching the textures and art styles of the world are still an optional choice for the visitor to make when they show up. In the Organization's case, they just figure that as long as they are covert enough, they need not concern themselves with the idea of matching the environment, plus they're probably already pushing enough magical resources into those magical coats that protect them from the Corridors of Darkness anyway.

 

So with all of that, we have learned that the visitor to any world could AT WILL change up either their clothing, textures, proportions, or overall appearance just to match the world they are in, to varying degrees no less, so long as they have the means and know-how to do so. So let's say for the sake of argument that Zack did find a way to leave Radiant Garden for the Olympus Coliseum (certain characters in BBS have shown that it's still entirely possible to travel across the worlds while they're still closed off from each other, so it's not too hard to imagine that Zack asked for Merlin's help or got a hand on some other means of travel before the Heartless started breaking down the walls), and let's also say that once he got there he had the means to transform his overall appearance to look like he was naturally from that world. He likely heard of Phil's teaching prowess thru some kind of rumors, even while in Radiant Garden (again, assuming there were enough outworlders traveling around thru other means back then), and found a way to get there so he could become the hero he always wanted to be. So BBS happens and then the last we've ever seen of him is as he's watching young Herc continue to train, something catches him off-guard and in his place all we see is a lone black feather.

 

Many have either speculated it having belonged to either Sephiroth or Genesis from Crisis Core, since they are the only known characters to have that iconic black wing such a feather would have come from. In this case, I'm more willing to bet that it's Sephiroth, since there wouldn't be much use for Genesis in this theory beyond making Zack "disappear", so it'd be pretty boring and pointless frankly. So let's assume Sephiroth did...something to Zack, and whatever it was, it's the reason we just don't see him around in any game that takes place after BBS. But why would Sephiroth do that in this universe? And how does Cloud fit in to all of this?

 

Well, back to Radiant Garden, I'm willing to be that like in Crisis Core, Sephiroth was also his own entity independent of Cloud. The journals typically describe him as a former "legendary hero", and in a interview about BBS, Nomura confirmed that when Zack was commenting on Terra looking like "exactly what he thought a hero would be", he had Sephiroth in mind as a reference. So perhaps some time ago Sephiroth was a legendary hero in Radiant Garden (or maybe across the worlds, who knows?), one who inspired Zack and possibly Cloud by extension, and his heroics are what spurred Zack into wanting to follow the path of the hero. This in turn would also inspire Cloud to follow in his footsteps.

 

"BUT WHAT ABOUT CLOUD AND SEPHIROTH GOD DAMN IT!!??" Geez, okay okay. So let's say at some point during the epilogue of BBS, something "happens" with Sephiroth. Either he gets corrupted by darkness, learns of some kind of dark secret to his origins similar to Crisis Core and FF VII, or he just snaps. Point is, he's done being the hero type and decides to pursue the path of strength and power instead (knowing him, he may have also just gotten bored of the hero path after a while, fighting really strong guys is always more exciting when you don't have a strict code of ethics I guess). This would probably eventually lead him to Olympus Coliseum himself, as he would have learned of it's history for having legendary competitors there (whether he trained there himself once or simply learned of it during his travels, either way he would have known about it eventually), and at that moment he would have noticed Zack. Herc was not quite up to his full potential yet, but Zack clearly seemed to have more experience, and perhaps Sephiroth would have even recognized him during his time in Radiant Garden. In any case, he'd find the boy intriguing, much like how he found Sora intriguing in KH1 and KH2, and probably confronted him to challenge him to a duel. How things progressed is probably fairly obvious. Zack probably put up a good fight, but since he hasn't gotten to the same level Cloud is at now, he probably wouldn't have lasted long enough to wear out Sephiroth. Or, maybe like Sora, he's learned enough in a short amount of time to at least temporarily satisfy Sephiroth without the need to finish Zack off. But since Zack doesn't seem to be around anymore...well, I'm leaning a bit more towards him loosing.

 

As for Cloud, well this is where everything gets REALLY theory-heavy. I feel that somehow, Cloud found out about this. Maybe he found his own way to Olympus to try and train with Zack and witnessed the fight happen or maybe Sephiroth simply teleported Zack to Radiant Garden when he first found him (which would explain why Zack is no longer there and the only thing left is a feather) and carried out their duel there. I'm leaning more towards the teleportation idea since it supports the idea that he would have recognized Zack from his time in Radiant Garden and thus would have teleported them there for the sake of sentimentality. Sephiroth isn't typically known for that, but since this is a different version of him and this is relatively early into his "rouge anti-villain" career, I'm sure he would have made this one exception, at least this once. So in any case, Cloud gets to witness the fight, and sees Zack lose, and since for this scenario we're going with old Sephy not taking any prisoners...well, it ain't pretty. Cloud is most definitely traumatized by this, witnessing his hero kill his role model and older brother figure, and at this point Sephiroth probably would have noticed Cloud by now, whether he was watching in the open or wasn't hiding too well or started charging the swordsman in a fit of rage for killing his best friend. In any case, Cloud has Sephiroth's attention, and then...again, "something" happens.

 

I'm not quite sure WHAT the circumstances would be, as I feel that it's something that would probably be best left to the likes of Nomura to figure out, but essentially a chain of events would happen that would lead to Sephiroth's downfall and Cloud getting away intact. Maybe Cloud somehow taps into his hidden "totally not a Super Saiyan" powers shown in Crisis Core and VII and picks up Zack's blade to get revenge on Spehiroth and somehow wins.

 

...OR, more interestingly, the Heartless start swarming. That's right, because destiny is a bitch in Kingdom Hearts, this all took place on the same day that Maleficent led her invasion against Radiant Garden with the Heartless, swarming the whole town and causing chaos (oh yeah, and I guess Xehanort and the apprentices have already gotten freaky with the whole Heartless and Nobodies thing at the same time, almost forgot there was an actual plot going on, huh?). There is no safe haven from the creatures of Darkness, they eventually find their way everywhere, and eventually towards wherever Cloud and Sephiroth are confronting each other. So maybe in this moment of chaos and confusion, Sephiroth would have been distracted with defending himself from the Heartless, and then a still enraged Cloud would take this opportunity to strike the man down. Whether or not he is mortally wounded by Cloud, Sephiroth is caught off-guard enough to fall victim to the Heartless, his heart being claimed by the spawns of Darkness. And while a specimen like Sephiroth would have had a strong enough will to produce a Nobody when his heart turned into a likely OP Heartless that would have assisted in the destruction of the town, Cloud's attack on Sephiroth would have rendered his body weak, causing it to perish and die before it has the chance to even take on a Nobody form. So that's the end of Sephiroth.

 

"Wait, WHAT!? BULL$#!T, NOT CANON, YOU RUINED EVERYTHING, FAKE NEWS!!!" Nah, not quite. You see, while the OG Sephy may have perished, the entity we know of from KH1 and KH2 still got to exist. How? Well let's continue the scenario first.

 

Cloud, still shaken up by what he just witnessed, what he just did, and by the overall carnage of the Heartless, is probably in shock right now, and probably would have fallen victim to the Heartless himself had it not been for the timely arrival of Cid, Leon, and the young gang (Tiffa included). Since everyone is either a inexperienced tweenager or a young kid at this point, I'm pretty convinced that Cid was probably handling most of the Heartless slaying, and being 10 years younger than we knew him in KH1, he would have been quite the badass lancer too. So thanks to his arrival, one of the gang (most likely Tiffa or Aerith...or both, I never liked choosing in that dating thing in VII anyway) manage to pull Cloud away from the danger so that they can all escape with Cid together in his either hastily or masterfully built Gummi Ship (I mean, knowing Cid, he either worked on the thing for months as a hobby, especially after the barrier was destroyed, or had to build it at the last second before the Heartless could reach them. Either way, he had the skills to make it work, even if just barely). Everyone is safe, for the time being.

 

After somehow finding Traverse Town, the gang tries to reconcile with what just happened. Loosing their homes and whole world to a bunch of horrifying creatures led by sorceress straight out of a fairy tale and finding themselves in a strange unfamiliar place, odds are they're going to be having a long hard time to cope with all of this. Cloud isn't having it any easier. If anything, he may just be having it worse. Something about that whole incident changed him on the inside. He was pretty traumatized, and as the days turn into weeks and into months, some of his friends may have started noticing the changes in his demeanor and behavior. At first they might have just written it off as him trying to cope with everything, same as them, but after everyone else, even Leon, have found themselves relatively adjusted with their new lives, Cloud is still noticeably distant. Aerith by this time may have sensed a huge change in his heart (you know, because unexplained Aerith powers and stuff...what, just cause she's a Cetra in VII doesn't mean she is here, it still needs explaining Nomura! ), and probably would have asked Tiffa to see if she could have a heart to heart with him, seeing as how they're relatively closer. Tiffa is more than willing to check in on Cloud, having noticed the changes as well, and would have tried seeing what was bugging him.

 

This confrontation would likely act as a catalyst for what would happen next. Essentially, Cloud would have some kind of traumatic crisis, something that causes his light and darkness to be thrown out of balance. So much so that his darkness expels itself from his body and takes a form of it's own. While not exactly the same process that led to Vanitas' creation in BBS, it would be similar enough to allow Cloud's darkness to take a form of it's own, in the image of Sephiroth no less! That's right, THIS is the Sephiroth that we know of in KH and KH2, the one who has ties to Cloud's past and is somehow also the embodiment of all of his Darkness. How did this come to be? Well I feel that after the traumatic destruction of Zack and Radiant Garden, Cloud's inner psyche (or, well, heart in this case I guess) would have undergone a similar metamorphosis to what he had between Crisis Core and VII, only things went a little differently. Deeply tormented by both what he witnessed, what he lost, and what he had committed, his darkness would have been gaining more influence over him due to all of the guilt, hatred, and fear welling up inside him. He still has a fairly strong light due to his true personality, but because he was too broken and insecure to really come forward about any of his feelings to anyone, it would have been in major conflict with his contrasting darkness. Not only that, but I also have a feeling that Sephiroth's soul would have had some influence over his internal struggle as well.

 

Yeah, at this point I'm now messing with the lore far more than I should be, and am now theorizing that the discarded soul of a person can find life after death. Well, at least, in Sephiroth's case anyway. Similar to how the Sephiroth seen in VII is actually a shadow of his former self reimagined by Cloud, only brought to full life when all of the remnants and Cloud find his actual remains and complete his essence, this Sephiroth's soul, now orphaned from his body, and yet still not abandoned in the "traditional sense" (ie, "normal death"), would have found it's way into Cloud's heart. As Cloud had such strong conflicting feelings towards Sephiroth at the time of his demise and Sephiroth clearly would have been harboring mixed yet spiteful feelings towards Cloud, his soul and Cloud's heart would have naturally been drawn to each other at that moment, so Sephiroth's soul would have found it's way into Cloud's heart. Over time Cloud's darkness and weakness would have began fueling Sephiroth's soul to begin gaining more of a sense of self within him. Eventually by the time Tiffa begins seriously confronting Cloud his whole crisis, Cloud's heart is thrown into such turmoil that it would push his light and darkness's internal struggle to a breaking point, enough where Sephiroth's now fully conscious soul seizes on the opportunity to hijack his darkness and use it to escape Cloud's being and begin forming his own body and identity right then and there.

 

So yeah, Sephiroth forms right in front of Cloud and Tiffa, much to their horror and surprise. He expresses his gratitude to Cloud for giving him new life, even after he ended his old one, but from that point on he's pretty much antagonizing the poor guy like he always does. Most importantly of all, he remarks how in a way, Cloud ended up making him stronger, as whatever power laid dormant within Cloud also ended up passing into Sephiroth thru his darkness, and that he never would have imagined that he could have gained what he had been searching for so long by challenging a "weakling like that". Realizing that he is referring to Zack, Cloud is instantly nettled and tries to fight Sephiroth again right then and there, but quickly gets his ass handed to him. Tiffa tries to help out but doesn't end up any better, and both of them are powerless to stop Sephiroth. However, Sephiroth is, oddly enough, feeling merciful right now, but not out of any feeling of pity. Oh no, on the contrary, having glimpsed Cloud's hidden strength while living on within him, he knows for a fact that where Cloud to get stronger, that potential would slowly find it's way to the surface. Even after all this time, Sephiroth still can't resist the call of a worthy promising challenge, especially not from the one unusual boy that somehow had ended him in the first place. But this time, he also understands that since the "self" that he is now came from Cloud, by that logic defeating Cloud in his prime will allow him to take the rest of his power and become even stronger than before (probably even the strongest in the universe, considering it's Sephiroth). After all, he and Cloud were now two halves of the same entity, and similar to Ventus and Vanitas, if one of them were to destroy the other, they would be able to rejoin as one being, with all of their powers combined into one source. Two halves that are destined to fight one another until they can become whole again, whoever strikes the other down gets to call the shots.

 

Sephiroth explains this to Cloud, or at least partially does (doesn't want to give away his entire motive to become stronger, lest Cloud try to follow the path of the pacifist like Ven tried to upon learning the truth), at the very least expressing that he IS Cloud's Darkness, and that one day when he is worthy, he will fight him again, on even ground. And to ensure that Cloud would be obsessed enough to pursue Sephiroth and become stronger, he threatens that if he doesn't fight and defeat him, he will take away everyone and everything he cares about until all that is left is the two of them, with nothing left in the way (and you know, maybe destroy a world or two, who knows, the guy could get bored). With that, Sephiroth teleports away, whiling away the time by resuming his original quest, finding worthy challengers to sate his lust for battle until his true match is worthy enough to face him. Cloud, heavily impacted by what had just happened, is much closer to the man we met in KH1 (and by extension the rest of his life as a character beyond FF VII I guess...I personally don't mind it so much), and after some amount of time, decides to set off from his adopted home of Traverse Town to pursue Sephiroth and hopefully find the strength needed to defeat him once and for all along the way.

 

He's pretty much trying to leave unannounced, likely stealing the old ship Cid used to rescue them all those years ago. Right before he does though, Aerith likely confronts him, at first trying to dissuade him from leaving (or at least leaving so unceremoniously), but then eventually relents and at least wishes him the best of luck in pursuing and achieving what she knows he truly wants, what he always wanted since the beginning, the strength to protect what matters to him (huh, deja vu...). She advises him not to loose sight of his light, even as he chases his darkness, and with a typical Cloud style one-liner, he leaves, trying to hold onto that promise as he begins his life of solitude. Shortly after, Aerith informs Tiffa that Cloud had left to pursue Sephiroth, and that she doesn't know if he'll ever come back. She does say that she is confident that they may see him again someday, but that's not enough for Tiffa, and she declares that she's going to find him before he does something reckless (cause you know, she knows him). Aerith advises her to trust in her light (or something) in order to find Cloud's, as their bond is what will lead Tiffa to him. Some time later, Tiffa leaves on her own, Cid having made her her own ship to use, and begins her search for her childhood friend.

 

And that's kind of what I feel would have led us to where we are with KH1 and onward. It's still a pretty tragic end for Zack, but it does allow for an interesting scenario that still harkens back to the feel of the original story in VII. Plus, who knows, if Sephiroth's soul could have found it's way into Cloud's heart, maybe Zack's could have done the same thing, only instead of imposing himself over Cloud, he would have been supporting Cloud unconsciously, adding to his reservoir of strength and abilities. As for Tiffa, I feel like because their bond would have been so strong, maybe it's that light from that connection that sort of spurred the conflict within Cloud to it's head, like her comforting words would have been soothing Cloud at first, only to cause the strengthening of his light to spur the darkness (and by extension, Sephiroth) into action. So this would probably account for why Cloud associates Tiffa with his "light" so much that he actually flinches whenever she's near enough, that connection, bond, and warmth is so alien to his hardened lonely heart by that point that he's forgotten how to welcome it in. Despite his promise, he does end up losing sight of his light while pursuing his darkness...for a while anyway.

 

Sorry if it seemed a bit much, it's just something I've been hypothesizing for a while now, and this actually presented the perfect opportunity to sort of get those thoughts and ideas out there. Thanks to anyone who read this far and I hope this makes for an interesting theory, even after it's been inevitably proven wrong in the end because Nomura says "F--- YOU, EXPECTATIONS!!". Though that is assuming he will ever get around to actually further developing and ending Cloud and Sephiroth's story in the KH series, I could totally see him neglecting to include them in KH3 because the overall plot is just so heavy by now. But who knows, maybe some of this will actually end up happening, it's kind of scary how sometimes some fans can actually get as far as predicting something 50% accurately, never mind 99% accurately! Here's hoping that no matter how it actually ends up getting expanded on and concluded, it's at the very least expanded on and concluded, lol.