I think it's Sora's power, Ninkoro thinks it's the card's power, and Sora doesn't actually have these abilities

Sub discussion: Sora uses basic magic in KH2, does this mean he doesn't have the ability to use advanced magic? I think it's jsut becuase they wanted to have upgradable magic

For additional context, check this topic: http://kh13.com/forum/topic/89196-characters-you-dont-want-to-die-in-kh3/

 

Think about it, it's quite symbolic actually. In KH1 And KH2, the 2/3 adventures that Sora actually remembers, he can only use one ability at a time. Strike raid. Firaga.

 

However, in the 3rd adventure Sora remembers, when Yensid sends him and Riku back in time and into the sleeping worlds to learn how to use the keyblade from scratch the "correct" way, and attain the mark of mastery, he is ably to use thunder raid, holy, and all those other complex and advanced skills. Just like how the three apprentices from BBS used the keyblade, who were trained from the beginning by real masters, and not just learning by themselves like Sora.

 

Anyways, aside from the Mark of Mastery Test, the only time Sora can use advanced skills is in COM. Sense there must be a reason for this, else final form sora could bust out some raging storms, it must have been the cards that either granted him that power or granted him the knowledge on how to use those skills.

Edited August 3, 201510 yr by Ninkoro

I'm just gonna leave this here:

 

Where did you get the idea of making it a sort of card game?
Nomura: This is talking about KHII more but, if you were to begin the game with the very powerful Sora you had acquired at the end of KH, KHII wouldn’t stand up to much as a game. I wanted the players to know the potential in strength Sora has more or less fulfilled at the end of the previous instalment yet not be able to use all those abilities right from the start. That is when I thought that if I could make a story in which Sora’s abilities and memories all get mixed up, KH: CoM would be a perfect bridge between KH and KHII. I thought that to symbolize those messed memories and abilities cards could be used so I had to create a card based system. Thats the jist of it, I think.

Think about it, it's quite symbolic actually. In KH1 And KH2, the 2/3 adventures that Sora actually remembers, he can only use one ability at a time. Strike raid. Firaga.

 

However, in the 3rd adventure Sora remembers, when Yensid sends him and Riku back in time and into the sleeping worlds to learn how to use the keyblade from scratch the "correct" way, and attain the mark of mastery, he is ably to use thunder raid, holy, and all those other complex and advanced skills. Just like how the three apprentices from BBS used the keyblade, who were trained from the beginning by real masters, and not just learning by themselves like Sora.

 

Anyways, aside from the Mark of Mastery Test, the only time Sora can use advanced skills is in COM. Sense there must be a reason for this, else final form sora could bust out some raging storms, it must have been the cards that either granted him that power or granted him the knowledge on how to use those skills.

sounds like a gameplay standards, considering Re:Coded is based off KH1's Sora's data, and Sora uses BBS-like commands in that, too

characters just use abilities as defined by their game, it doesn't mean it's the limit of their abilities

KH2 is based around having magic that gradually upgrades, so that's what you use

sounds like a gameplay standards, considering Re:Coded is based off KH1's Sora's data, and Sora uses BBS-like commands in that, too

characters just use abilities as defined by their game, it doesn't mean it's the limit of their abilities

KH2 is based around having magic that gradually upgrades, so that's what you use

No, data Sora is technically a different character, the origins of his power are different, and thus he holds no ground on determining how the real sora is.

 

But we already know we disagree. That's not why you made this thread, right? You made it to get the opinions of others.

No, data Sora is technically a different character, the origins of his power are different, and thus he holds no ground on determining how the real sora is. But we already know we disagree. That's not why you made this thread, right? You made it to get the opinions of others.

You're missing his point though Data Sora was based on all the data Jiminy collected on Sora. In other words all Data-Sora's abilities are based on KHI Sora and all the abilities he had at his disposal.

You're missing his point though Data Sora was based on all the data Jiminy collected on Sora. In other words all Data-Sora's abilities are based on KHI Sora and all the abilities he had at his disposal.

Except he wasn't. Mickey made the Keyblade for Data Sora. He gave data Sora the "Power to fight". Mickey and pals programed that power into data Sora.

could be a little bit of both

 

from the moment he set foot in the castle he forgot every ability and spell he ever knew. so is it possible that as he journeyed through the castle he regained his old abilities in addition to learning new ones from the cards? 

Then again, the cards he collects were all formed from his own memories so I guess if we go off that then all the abilities he gains in CoM were really his all along, he just forgot he had them. So his abilities are his own I'd say. 

As for why there are some new abilities that we never saw Sora use in KH1 (i.e. Lethal Frame)...well those were probably added to spice up the gameplay. Gotta throw some new moves in to keep things fresh, so chalk that up to story-gameplay segregation. 

my two cents

Except he wasn't. Mickey made the Keyblade for Data Sora. He gave data Sora the "Power to fight". Mickey and pals programed that power into data Sora.

Yeah because Sora at his point of origin did not have data of the Keyblade. But as he progresses through the data worlds he is able to access those abilit ies because they are recorded in the journal.

Think about it, it's quite symbolic actually. In KH1 And KH2, the 2/3 adventures that Sora actually remembers, he can only use one ability at a time. Strike raid. Firaga.

 

However, in the 3rd adventure Sora remembers, when Yensid sends him and Riku back in time and into the sleeping worlds to learn how to use the keyblade from scratch the "correct" way, and attain the mark of mastery, he is ably to use thunder raid, holy, and all those other complex and advanced skills. Just like how the three apprentices from BBS used the keyblade, who were trained from the beginning by real masters, and not just learning by themselves like Sora.

 

Anyways, aside from the Mark of Mastery Test, the only time Sora can use advanced skills is in COM. Sense there must be a reason for this, else final form sora could bust out some raging storms, it must have been the cards that either granted him that power or granted him the knowledge on how to use those skills.

 

You know, I absolutely agree with you on this.

Gameplay reflects the symbolism in the mastery of keyblade in the story

 

I've always viewed the Normal command system in KH1, Days  and KH2 as the 'unorthodox keyblade wielder style' because their skill set is limited. While in KH3D and BBS the gameplay style using 'command decks' is what I like to think of as the 'Orthodox Keyblade wielding Style' purely because you can strong together complex commands into your standard attacks showing much more mastery over the physical and magical capabilities of the Keyblade.

 

The cards from CoM were crafted from Sora's memories...so maybe those skills were derived from the sleeping memories and powers inside Sora?....or maybe its just gameplay factors and has no relevance whatsoever

Yeah because Sora at his point of origin did not have data of the Keyblade. But as he progresses through the data worlds he is able to access those abilit ies because they are recorded in the journal.

No, is recoded's bugged story what was recorded in the journal? No, it wasn't. The journal was bugged.

No, is recoded's bugged story what was recorded in the journal? No, it wasn't. The journal was bugged.

The Data was corrupted not gone all together. Obviously some of the data remained intact otherwise those worlds would not have existed.

You know, I absolutely agree with you on this.

Gameplay reflects the symbolism in the mastery of keyblade in the story

 

I've always viewed the Normal command system in KH1, Days  and KH2 as the 'unorthodox keyblade wielder style' because their skill set is limited. While in KH3D and BBS the gameplay style using 'command decks' is what I like to think of as the 'Orthodox Keyblade wielding Style' purely because you can strong together complex commands into your standard attacks showing much more mastery over the physical and magical capabilities of the Keyblade.

 

The cards from CoM were crafted from Sora's memories...so maybe those skills were derived from the sleeping memories and powers inside Sora?....or maybe its just gameplay factors and has no relevance whatsoever

but Sora's using the "unorthodox" method again in KH3, kinda throws a wrench in the theory

 

No, is recoded's bugged story what was recorded in the journal? No, it wasn't. The journal was bugged.

Re:Coded didn't glitch Data Sora's abilities into existence though. It's all based on Sora's KH1 data

The Data was corrupted not gone all together. Obviously some of the data remained intact otherwise those worlds would not have existed.

 

Sora did not use fire dive in KH1. That is a fact. Thus, Fire dive should not be in the true journal. Thus, it can be determined that these skills are from other origins, either bugs or mickey, or from Data sora himself (as his own person), since it is shown that he obtained a heart of his own.

 

but Sora's using the "unorthodox" method again in KH3, kinda throws a wrench in the theory

 

Re:Coded didn't glitch Data Sora's abilities into existence though. It's all based on Sora's KH1 data

 

You're wrong. Read above.

 

Anyways, speaking about KH3 specifically, that's not true. Sure the basic magic system will be back, but the game isn't out yet. Sora can use keyblade transformations, which is shown by terra's armour to be an advanced skill combining magic and keyblade! That in and of itself supports the symbolism I believe in. And who knows, maybe there will be combos where if certain moves are chained together, sora can release a mega flare? The game isn't out yet, don't declare a verdict before the witness is even born.

Sora did not use fire dive in KH1. That is a fact. Thus, Fire dive should not be in the true journal. Thus, it can be determined that these skills are from other origins, either bugs or mickey, or from Data sora himself (as his own person), since it is shown that he obtained a heart of his own.  You're wrong. Read above. Anyways, speaking about KH3 specifically, that's not true. Sure the basic magic system will be back, but the game isn't out yet. Sora can use keyblade transformations, which is shown by terra's armour to be an advanced skill combining magic and keyblade! That in and of itself supports the symbolism I believe in. And who knows, maybe there will be combos where if certain moves are chained together, sora can release a mega flare? The game isn't out yet, don't declare a verdict before the witness is even born.

No he didn't but he had the potential to which is Hatok's point. That potential existed within the data journal allowing Data Sora to access that ability.

Well, basically, Sora ends up losing all the abilities he learned during his time in Chain Of Memories, so yes, I believe that his abilities in that game come from the power of the cards, because literally, without the cards, you can't operate in Castle Oblivion, ya know?

No he didn't but he had the potential to which is Hatok's point. That potential existed within the data journal allowing Data Sora to access that ability.

I disagree. I believe it is data Sora's own experience/other forces that allowed him to do what he did.

 

You seem to be misinterpreting something here. Any keyblade wielder, with the right influence, has the potential to learn combo skills. However, Sora, the real one, didn't until 3D. Data Sora's experiences on his bug adventure are vastely different than Sora's, thus his abilities are his and his alone.

 

By the way, remember how Data sora is upgraded? That's right, by a circuit board. You are editing his data. He isn't what the data says, and neither is his abilities. He is constantly modified throughout the game.

Well, basically, Sora ends up losing all the abilities he learned during his time in Chain Of Memories, so yes, I believe that his abilities in that game come from the power of the cards, because literally, without the cards, you can't operate in Castle Oblivion, ya know?

the cards come from Sora in the first place though

 

I disagree. I believe it is data Sora's own experience/other forces that allowed him to do what he did.

 

You seem to be misinterpreting something here. Any keyblade wielder, with the right influence, has the potential to learn combo skills. However, Sora, the real one, didn't until 3D. Data Sora's experiences on his bug adventure are vastely different than Sora's, thus his abilities are his and his alone.

 

By the way, remember how Data sora is upgraded? That's right, by a circuit board. You are editing his data. He isn't what the data says, and neither is his abilities. He is constantly modified throughout the game.

he only doesn't if you assume that his ability to use the abilities he does in CoM are all unrelated

another thing that suggests it's one of Sora's abilities, not an unrelated card thing, is that Sora uses moves that would go on to be Ven's, like Tornado, and Faith

the cards come from Sora in the first place though

Yes, I know, the cards come from his heart, but without the cards, he has no power in Castle Oblivion.

the cards come from Sora in the first place though

 

he only doesn't if you assume that his ability to use the abilities he does in CoM are all unrelated

another thing that suggests it's one of Sora's abilities, not an unrelated card thing, is that Sora uses moves that would go on to be Ven's, like Tornado, and Faith

 

Actually that helps my theory. Sora didn't know how to use Holy or Tornado, but Ven did. The cards read his deep memories (Ven's) and granted Sora the knowledge of them.

Yes, I know, the cards come from his heart, but without the cards, he has no power in Castle Oblivion.

right, but it still comes from his own abilities. It's not like Sora swinging his keyblade is a Castle Oblivion. Castle Oblivion just forces him to use cards to use abilities he already has

 

Actually that helps my theory. Sora didn't know how to use Holy or Tornado, but Ven did. The cards read his deep memories (Ven's) and granted Sora the knowledge of them.

well, thank for getting me to google this, because I didn't know that Holy was renamed Faith after Re:CoM. But, I think I found pretty solid proof as a result: Sora uses Faith as a reaction command in KH2.

So Sora can use his CoM abilities in KH2. Sora has a LOT of abilities he only uses as reaction commands, actually.

But ignoring that, many of Sora's Re:CoM abilities aren't from Ventus. Many of them haven't ever been used by anybody BUT Sora. Some abilities are used by Terra or Aqua, as well, who definitely aren't impacting Sora's abilities

right, but it still comes from his own abilities. It's not like Sora swinging his keyblade is a Castle Oblivion. Castle Oblivion just forces him to use cards to use abilities he already has

 

well, thank for getting me to google this, because I didn't know that Holy was renamed Faith after Re:CoM. But, I think I found pretty solid proof as a result: Sora uses Faith as a reaction command in KH2.

So Sora can use his CoM abilities in KH2. Sora has a LOT of abilities he only uses as reaction commands, actually.

But ignoring that, many of Sora's Re:CoM abilities aren't from Ventus. Many of them haven't ever been used by anybody BUT Sora. Some abilities are used by Terra or Aqua, as well, who definitely aren't impacting Sora's abilities

 

...Which also further supports that it's the card's power granting him these abilities, rather then them being his own. Where would Sora learn lethal frame from? The only conclusion is the cards granted him the knowledge/power to do so.

right, but it still comes from his own abilities. It's not like Sora swinging his keyblade is a Castle Oblivion. Castle Oblivion just forces him to use cards to use abilities he already has

 

well, thank for getting me to google this, because I didn't know that Holy was renamed Faith after Re:CoM. But, I think I found pretty solid proof as a result: Sora uses Faith as a reaction command in KH2.

So Sora can use his CoM abilities in KH2. Sora has a LOT of abilities he only uses as reaction commands, actually.

But ignoring that, many of Sora's Re:CoM abilities aren't from Ventus. Many of them haven't ever been used by anybody BUT Sora. Some abilities are used by Terra or Aqua, as well, who definitely aren't impacting Sora's abilities

Sora can only use faith with the help of Minnie I'm pretty sure that's how the RC went. Thing with COM is that the cards that Sora has aren't just from himself. How do you think he went to Twilight Town? It was because of Roxas (although I don't how that works because they are two separate entities at this point).This really is a difficult discussion because the gameplay of COM makes so that all these abilities are available in the form of sleights. But in KH1 and KH2 it was the basic commands with a few different combo finishers.Why not compare COM Sora to COM RIku as well to see how that works. Riku only has the Soul Eater cards at this point right?

...Which also further supports that it's the card's power granting him these abilities, rather then them being his own. Where would Sora learn lethal frame from? The only conclusion is the cards granted him the knowledge/power to do so.

where does Sora learn Ripple Drive, or Stun Break? KH is a world where abilities occur naturally

when they "learn" abilities they do so by having a physical object thrown at them, or by opening a treasure chest

Sora can only use faith with the help of Minnie I'm pretty sure that's how the RC went. Thing with COM is that the cards that Sora has aren't just from himself. How do you think he went to Twilight Town? It was because of Roxas (although I don't how that works because they are two separate entities at this point).This really is a difficult discussion because the gameplay of COM makes so that all these abilities are available in the form of sleights. But in KH1 and KH2 it was the basic commands with a few different combo finishers.Why not compare COM Sora to COM RIku as well to see how that works. Riku only has the Soul Eater cards at this point right?

He and Minnie use Faith together, yeah

 

and that's the thing, KH2 just wanted to have upgradable magic, rather than specific commands

 

All of Riku's abilities are natural, he uses Soul Eater to use abilities he used in KH1 boss fights

 

(As for the Twilight Town thing, that's not a card based off Sora's memories. It's just a card used to form a world. All the abilities Sora uses in combat are abilities he used in KH1, besides non-canon post game stuff)

where does Sora learn Ripple Drive, or Stun Break? KH is a world where abilities occur naturally

when they "learn" abilities they do so by having a physical object thrown at them, or by opening a treasure chest

He and Minnie use Faith together, yeah

 

and that's the thing, KH2 just wanted to have upgradable magic, rather than specific commands

 

All of Riku's abilities are natural, he uses Soul Eater to use abilities he used in KH1 boss fights

 

(As for the Twilight Town thing, that's not a card based off Sora's memories. It's just a card used to form a world. All the abilities Sora uses in combat are abilities he used in KH1, besides non-canon post game stuff)

 

Yes but in this case how does he learn these skills? The cards!!! Which is my point!

where does Sora learn Ripple Drive, or Stun Break? KH is a world where abilities occur naturally

when they "learn" abilities they do so by having a physical object thrown at them, or by opening a treasure chest

He and Minnie use Faith together, yeah

 

and that's the thing, KH2 just wanted to have upgradable magic, rather than specific commands

 

All of Riku's abilities are natural, he uses Soul Eater to use abilities he used in KH1 boss fights

 

(As for the Twilight Town thing, that's not a card based off Sora's memories. It's just a card used to form a world. All the abilities Sora uses in combat are abilities he used in KH1, besides non-canon post game stuff)

Hmm and it honestly just seems to come back to the gameplay. Nomura treats every non-numbered game as a spin-off title and that's why he gives them different gameplay mechanics. That's just the direction he took with and trying to explain it might be a little messy and forced because there isn't really any logical reasoning. Their just not numbered titles so he experimented a bit.That being said it's still fun to speculate and make theories about this stuff.But I am pretty sure that the cards to the different worlds are formed from Sora's memories of those worlds. I mean that's why he ends up visiting them in the first place right? Like if the BBS trio were to hypothetically go to Castle Oblivion then they would see the worlds that they visited such as Enchanted Dominion and stuff.Edit: Sora loses all of his abilities when he enters the castle (assuming the same thing that happened to Donald not being able to use Thunder, also happened to Sora). He is only then able to use abilities (or just attack) only using the cards. No cards = no attacking.  

Edited August 3, 201510 yr by Pokemoncuzzie