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*SPOILERS* So uh...logically?


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#21 atheist123

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 05:42 PM

But if Ansem SoD goes back in time he is altering the future if he informs YMX of what is to come. YMX doesn't know of his future and does not plan for it if Ansem SoD doesn't come, so that is changing the future.


There is a huge amount of time between YMX and MX's age; about 50 years. We have no idea what happened between these times and how YMX time travels so anyones guess is just as right.

But, based on all the evidence, the only thing that makes total sense to me is that YMX has left his body (allowing him to time travel) but the knowledge he gains while time traveling is sealed away in his heart until his heart is released from his body again (in becoming ASoD). I suppose you could call it "the memories of the body vs the memories of the heart", while in physical bodies entities only have memories of the present.

Its either that or Xemnas/ASoD have all their memories about the past and future but know that they must eventually be defeated so the MX can be revived. When AX remembered his past as MX he attacked the apprentices and turned himself into a heartless/nobody . . . so, as implied in the secret ending of BBS, this whole time travel business was one of MX's plans from before he possessed Terra and presumably this knowledge of how to time travel came from his time as YMX when ASoD told him how to time travel.

I don't know if I can believe that Xemnas and Ansem SoD are projections of themselves because it goes against KH. Now if someone can project their body without an actual body then what is the point of any vessel actually being needed. Thanks for the response though, I just find time travel in anything to be more confusing than helpful.

I don't think it goes against Kh . . . Roxas'/ Ventus' heart have projected into Soras multiple times so why can't Xehanorts hearts project through time not just space? I think vessels are still needed because each version of Xehanort needs to have a different essence or else they are just all the same. YMX is Xehanort before he turned completely evil, Xemnas is AX's nobody, ASoD is AX's heartless, MX is YMX after his heart is corrupted from travelling in the RoD/roads between without protection and IsaNort/BraigNort are MX's heart in different vessels. Hearts can communicate with each other kinda like how particles can talk to each other thorugh time and space. This is one of the only aspects of time travel supported through science so don't say it can't happen!

#22 legendkiller222

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 06:24 PM

There is a huge amount of time between YMX and MX's age; about 50 years. We have no idea what happened between these times and how YMX time travels so anyones guess is just as right.

But, based on all the evidence, the only thing that makes total sense to me is that YMX has left his body (allowing him to time travel) but the knowledge he gains while time traveling is sealed away in his heart until his heart is released from his body again (in becoming ASoD). I suppose you could call it "the memories of the body vs the memories of the heart", while in physical bodies entities only have memories of the present.

Its either that or Xemnas/ASoD have all their memories about the past and future but know that they must eventually be defeated so the MX can be revived. When AX remembered his past as MX he attacked the apprentices and turned himself into a heartless/nobody . . . so, as implied in the secret ending of BBS, this whole time travel business was one of MX's plans from before he possessed Terra and presumably this knowledge of how to time travel came from his time as YMX when ASoD told him how to time travel.


I don't think it goes against Kh . . . Roxas'/ Ventus' heart have projected into Soras multiple times so why can't Xehanorts hearts project through time not just space? I think vessels are still needed because each version of Xehanort needs to have a different essence or else they are just all the same. YMX is Xehanort before he turned completely evil, Xemnas is AX's nobody, ASoD is AX's heartless, MX is YMX after his heart is corrupted from travelling in the RoD/roads between without protection and IsaNort/BraigNort are MX's heart in different vessels. Hearts can communicate with each other kinda like how particles can talk to each other thorugh time and space. This is one of the only aspects of time travel supported through science so don't say it can't happen!


The KH universe is different than our actual universe and using time travel theories that we know in real life is a fallacy in explaining KH time travel. But the arugment that Roxas/Ven's hearts have been projected through Sora or into Sora is a huge difference to compared with what Ansem and Xemnas would be doing. To say you can project your body through time and space is to ignore the idea of casting flesh away because Ansem SoD would not have been a spirit when he visited YMX. He would have took use of Riku's body and went through the events of KH1 up until he needed to go back in time because he would have been able to prepare more. So, this cannot be the case.

#23 Tom

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 06:42 PM

Eh, I guess I'll just throw it in here because I came up with it last night and frankly, I like this more than just a walking heart.

Here's the difference between the original Xehanort and the Young Master Xehanort:

Xehanort:
- deep voice
- definitely seems to be older than say Sora and Riku
- stays on the island until he finds a way to get off, and gets a Keyblade, then adventures until he becomes the old Master Xehanort

Young Master Xehanort:
- takes upon a more high pitch voice
- it looks as if he grew younger, looks like he's around Sora or Riku's age in KH2.
- has time traveled fowards in time to collect Xehanorts before their death, in the process gets a Keyblade

Because of their differences, I'm doubting that the original Xehanort time travels and manages to take this VERY DIFFERENT form because he is a walking heart. And idk if you realize it, but the original, before time traveling, has not obtained a Keyblade yet. So when we see YMX throw out a Keyblade in front of Riku and Mickey, it's a little suspicious.

There are two ways he could of gotten a Keyblade. One would be the Rite of Succession, and I'm not going to believe that one of the Xehanorts he brought back was, "KTHNX HERES THE ABILITY TO USE ONE, AND YOUR VERY OWN KEYBLADE, YAAAAAY!". Or the second option would be of course, if a Keyblade Wielder's heart resides in a body of someone. Now Sora can use the Keyblade, because he had a strong heart. But after seeing the Xehanorts taunt Sora that he isn't a true Keyblade Wielder through out the entire game, I'm starting to lean towards that thanks to Ventus, he is able to wield the Keyblade. How it's seen, it can go both ways.

For someone like YMX, who time traveled in the future, lost his form, and when he finally did get a new form, it was a more younger version, and he was able to wield a Keyblade, since I guess you can say that originally he was going to obtain one, but the time traveling missed his chance to do so, I don't think a walking heart could of managed all this. There's just little reason to call it out on that.

So firetruck it, I'll just say it.

His heart is harboring inside someone else's body, as a vessel. Out of pure speculation, I want to say Vanitas. Vanitas has not appeared in the entire game, except for the one instance where YMX approached Sora in the Hunchback world, and Vanitas appeared, but as an illusion.

Here's what really leading me to think it's Vanitas. Now assuming YMX saved Vanitas within his time traveling, or any possible reason Vanitas could of came back, he would use Vanitas as a vessel for Xehanort or Xehanortified him. Vanitas....isn't exactly a slave to MX in BBS, if you remember correctly. Vanitas, instead, would disobey his orders, to the point of ending his entire plan to forge the X-Blade, simply by ending Ven's life. Basically, Vanitas doesn't care about MX. His focus was on Ven and pretty much Ven only. Sure, the occasional Aqua, but that's for if Ven could not be a proper being to merge with to forge the X-Blade. And that's pretty much it, just his focus on Ven, because he is "dark side" after all. So when I think about it, you can imagine how Vanitas could of reacted to Xehanort's plan to use as much people as vessels for him as possible. Vanitas wouldn't care for his plans, and at that point, would either go back to the X-Blade plans or go after Ven himself. That's why if he is, or going to be, a vessel, there is that feeling that Vanitas would resist to the whole thing, resist to Xehanortification. And that's what I think happened with Vanitas. He resisted, and eventually he was forced. By that time, YMX needed a form, so he would put his heart into Vanitas, and boom, there he is, the YMX we see in 3D.

How do you determine it can be him? Well simple really. The heart in body conspirarcy is that when a heart enters a body with someone's heart, some actions may occur. If the heart does not do anything or is dormant, then the body will stay the same. But if the heart tries to take over, then the body starts to gain physical traits, that of the heart that's taking over. If YMX's heart tried to take over Vanitas' body for absolute control, it's going to start looking like him. And thus it does. And when he does finally take that form we see now, his voice, his body, and overall, is more newer and younger. If that's true, then it looks like either Vanitas's heart is weak at the time, or YMX/MX had made it weak.

Going back to that illusion, it would appear that Vanitas doesn't look like he's a part of him, but does say exactly what YMX had said, at the same time. Explaining is rather tough. It's like if illusion was supposed to signal that this is his body, but himself in control. Like if Vanitas was saying it to him, but in reality, he wasn't, but YMX was. The illusion there seems kinda unlikely to just throw Sora off (especially since you can't really throw someone off when they don't understand anything at all). But of course, anything is possible.

Now the for the Keyblade part. Vanitas can wield his own Keyblade, which is known as the Void Gear. And like I discussed above, YMX missed his chance to wield his actual one because of time traveling. So in order to even be able to get a Keyblade, one of the few ways he has is to use Vanitas' heart to give the power to wield one. As for obtaining one, that I wouldn't be able to exactly figure out, but he could of gotten a Keyblade along the way, it's not entirely impossible. It's like Mickey grabbing the Kingdom Key D, which was a Keyblade of the Realm of Darkness, a Keyblade literally being there. And it become his official one, besides his Star Seeker (and I think that is Yen Sid's anyway, only logical). To show that YMX could be using Vanitas for a Keyblade is if you look closely at his Keyblade, which is hard to see, but I have managed to pause one of the videos in time to get a look. It'll be one of the attached. Assuming you saw the attached photo, you'll see those are gears on his Keyblade, which Vanitas' Void Gear consisted of LOTS of gears. This could be a sign for his time travel of course, but since Vanitas is the only person that has gears on his Keyblade, you can say there could be a slight connection to it. Not quite, but close enough.

But what happens to Vanitas after this? Well YMX does mention that he would be returning to his original era. I'll assume that when he does return, he'll return to his past like how it should of happen, nothing rewritten like it should have. He would return to his original self, and Vanitas would stay back. And at that point, MX will probably just use Vanitas as a vessel once more, probably being very weak from being used and Riku beating the shit out of his body, and he'll probably just be Xehanortified sadly.

Or I could be extremely off and I am just out of my blooming mind. But as of now, I'll stick with this then a walking heart lol.

EDIT*

Nevermind, I'll just post the image here, to be easier.

Posted Image

Edited by Tom, 03 April 2012 - 06:45 PM.


#24 Sky Heart

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 06:51 PM

Instead of speculating, we should just let it be. Nomura has thought about it a lot and if there are any holes he'd fill it in with the final mix version or the next installment.

#25 Tom

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 06:53 PM

Instead of speculating, we should just let it be. Nomura has thought about it a lot and if there are any holes he'd fill it in with the final mix version or the next installment.


There is a reason why there is such thing known as "theories".

#26 Sky Heart

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 07:22 PM

There is a reason why there is such thing known as "theories".


Just saying time travel is an iffy subject. When you explain something there will always be more questions that budd out of it.
Like right now.
How did YMX travel to the future but keeping his body/flesh?
When MX, finally formed why was he returned to his own time?
If YMX managed to preserve his body somewhere, like how Ven's body is in CO and hasn't aged, where did he hide it?
Do bodies left without hearts stay the same age?
If YMX didn't preserve his body, how is he projecting his image and able to wield a keyblade when he is just supposed to be a heart?
Time Traveling can't change what's already written in history, so what's the purpose of time traveling?
How does one initiate time traveling after abandoning their flesh?
Is there a way to gain new flesh after time traveling?
Does the same rules apply when time traveling through a dream?
Are there any more rules to time traveling?

#27 Tom

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:02 PM

Just saying time travel is an iffy subject. When you explain something there will always be more questions that budd out of it.
Like right now.
How did YMX travel to the future but keeping his body/flesh?
When MX, finally formed why was he returned to his own time?
If YMX managed to preserve his body somewhere, like how Ven's body is in CO and hasn't aged, where did he hide it?
Do bodies left without hearts stay the same age?
If YMX didn't preserve his body, how is he projecting his image and able to wield a keyblade when he is just supposed to be a heart?
Time Traveling can't change what's already written in history, so what's the purpose of time traveling?
How does one initiate time traveling after abandoning their flesh?
Is there a way to gain new flesh after time traveling?
Does the same rules apply when time traveling through a dream?
Are there any more rules to time traveling?


That's why I made a post about what I think.

#28 atheist123

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:06 PM

How did YMX travel to the future but keeping his body/flesh?
We have no idea whether YMX actually keeps his body . . . at the end of KH3D every Xehanort just disappears, not using a Dark Corridor, not leaving a body behind. This was what led me to believe that no Xehanort (apart from MX/AX possibly) is actually using a real body in the present time.
When MX, finally formed why was he returned to his own time?
No idea, but I'll speculate that AX is the form that is in the present, not MX.
If YMX managed to preserve his body somewhere, like how Ven's body is in CO and hasn't aged, where did he hide it?
If YMX grows into MX then his body would never be left uninhabited. If YMX is using a body it could be a preserved Vanitas as Tom said.
Do bodies left without hearts stay the same age?
It looks like it.
If YMX didn't preserve his body, how is he projecting his image and able to wield a keyblade when he is just supposed to be a heart?
Magic . . . ASoD isn't using his body . . . or is he? Has Riku ever regained his body? He was used as a vessel, his heart was sent to KH/Realm of Darkness, ASoD was defeated then Riku closed the door and by this time Riku had already met Mickey. . . . hmm? The only thing that will clear this up is if time travellers can take people and their bodies out of their timestream. But then why do people have to get rid of their bodies to start with?
Time Traveling can't change what's already written in history, so what's the purpose of time traveling?
To change something that hasn't been decided yet. When ASoD time travelled the Org and 7 princesses had already occured so these things could not be changed but anything past this could. However, Xemnas' defeat was written in stone. Just because another Nort needs to exist in order for people to travel forward.
How does one initiate time traveling after abandoning their flesh?
Keyblade.
Is there a way to gain new flesh after time traveling?
Possession (like what ASoD did to Riku) or cloning. Maybe Xemnas had a clone made that he can possess in the future. Same with YMX and ASoD. YMX may have gone to the original Org XIII time and made clones for everyone he was bringing foward?
Does the same rules apply when time traveling through a dream?
It would be something to do with memories I'm guessing.
Are there any more rules to time traveling?
Lots.

#29 Sky Heart

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:16 PM

How did YMX travel to the future but keeping his body/flesh?
We have no idea whether YMX actually keeps his body . . . at the end of KH3D every Xehanort just disappears, not using a Dark Corridor, not leaving a body behind. This was what led me to believe that no Xehanort (apart from MX/AX possibly) is actually using a real body in the present time.
When MX, finally formed why was he returned to his own time?
No idea, but I'll speculate that AX is the form that is in the present, not MX.
If YMX managed to preserve his body somewhere, like how Ven's body is in CO and hasn't aged, where did he hide it?
If YMX grows into MX then his body would never be left uninhabited. If YMX is using a body it could be a preserved Vanitas as Tom said.
Do bodies left without hearts stay the same age?
It looks like it.
If YMX didn't preserve his body, how is he projecting his image and able to wield a keyblade when he is just supposed to be a heart?
Magic . . . ASoD isn't using his body . . . or is he? Has Riku ever regained his body? He was used as a vessel, his heart was sent to KH/Realm of Darkness, ASoD was defeated then Riku closed the door and by this time Riku had already met Mickey. . . . hmm? The only thing that will clear this up is if time travellers can take people and their bodies out of their timestream. But then why do people have to get rid of their bodies to start with?
Time Traveling can't change what's already written in history, so what's the purpose of time traveling?
To change something that hasn't been decided yet. When ASoD time travelled the Org and 7 princesses had already occured so these things could not be changed but anything past this could. However, Xemnas' defeat was written in stone. Just because another Nort needs to exist in order for people to travel forward.
How does one initiate time traveling after abandoning their flesh?
Keyblade.
Is there a way to gain new flesh after time traveling?
Possession (like what ASoD did to Riku) or cloning. Maybe Xemnas had a clone made that he can possess in the future. Same with YMX and ASoD. YMX may have gone to the original Org XIII time and made clones for everyone he was bringing foward?
Does the same rules apply when time traveling through a dream?
It would be something to do with memories I'm guessing.
Are there any more rules to time traveling?
Lots.


Thanks for the answers lol.

#30 atheist123

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:20 PM

Thanks for the answers lol.

^"answers". (Always needs the speech marks.) ;p

#31 Xirog

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 12:26 PM

Remembered about the Replica Project... Could Xemnas had started it to do something with stuff like vessels?
Oh, Nomura, all this thinking, speculating and theorys that appears after a new KH game is released, that's why i love you.No gay stuff.

#32 atheist123

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:27 PM

No gay stuff.

:(

#33 Heart2Heart

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 11:39 PM

Hmm.... There is a lot to think about. My interpretation of the sequence of SoD's time travel is that shortly after being created (when AX splits into Heartless and Nobody) THEN SoD went back (b/c thinking about it, after taking Riku's body as a vessel, he turned it into his own body, but.....if he had been created as the brown cloaked figure, then this later form makes little to no sense) and the form SoD took after casting off his "form" (I still don't understand, either Heartless can just time travel, or as a Heartless, SoD had to become an even more simplistic existence before he could time travel) IS the brown cloaked figure, and to keep the timeline going, he REMAINS in this form (I have no clue as to what he could have been up to) and this SoD who has already gone back and discussed things with YMX is the one who takes over Riku and is beaten in KH1. One thing to add is that the possibility of a stable time loop works fairly well, considering Ansem is not YMX, MX, or even AX, he's the Heartless of AX, making him separate enough from YMX that paradox doesn't occur w/ their contact. (I have no explanation, so I won't go further into it, but while Ansem's role is STARTING to become understandable, but by YMX not being in the past to grow up with Eraqus and Master _____, ditch the Keyblade Armor, etc, how is MX possible? Only thought is since he's time traveling forward, if everything's a "stable time loop", then when YMX would reset to his own time, it doesn't matter since he WOULD grow up to be MX in the past, and when he would eventually rewind back, it would still be that same time no matter what point in the future he did it) But the one point I very much agree with that has been said is the significance of the Replica Program, it easily could be meant for creating cheap and effective vessels for the Xeha-carnations (thus a means for them to stay in the present) also, can't say for sure, but it's possible that since the Riku Replica was created during Riku's continuation through CO, so the Replica may have contained a replica of the remains of Ansem SoD, giving him other means of returning....