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2.8 Frame Rate / Lag / Stuttering


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9 replies to this topic

#1 David Buchwald

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 11:55 PM

Hey all,

 

I have just completed my run of all KH games on the PS4 (1.5+2.5, and 2.8). I had a big issue with 0.2 and Back Cover, which involves Frame Rate / Lag / Stuttering, whatever you want to call it. Sorry, I'm not a technical person so I do apologize if my use of terms is incorrect. What I experienced during 0.2 was jumpy camera movements, and slow down of frame rates during certain moments, for example when switching to Spellweaver Style Change. Another example would be if I would leave Aqua standing in one place, and rotate the camera around her with the Right Analog Stick, I would see jumpiness in the camera, it would never be fluid. Unable to complete a full rotation without some sort of jumpiness. Even just running, the camera would jump after a period of following behind Aqua during running. In terms of cut scenes, I would notice some serious dips in fluidity -- whatever you want to call it, frame rate drops or stuttering, it just looked awful. And as other people mentioned, incredibly jumpy even during the end credits scroll. While not as bad during watching Back Cover, it was certainly noticeable there as well. ... I do want to mention that I had absolutely no problems whatsoever during DDDHD. I also had no problems whatsoever on 1.5+2.5.  I also want to mention that I've played other games such as Star Wars Battlefront 2 , Destiny, COD, Etc. that use modern graphics, and have never experienced anything like this.  This leads me to believe this is an issue with just 0.2 and Back Cover, and not necessarily an issue with my PS4.

 

As far as tech specs: I am using a regular 500 GB PS4 (not a Pro or a Slim) and I bought it new a little over 2 years ago. I keep it in good condition and in a well ventilated area. My copy of the game is a disc copy. If there were any patches or anything I assume those have all been installed, because my PS4 always installs those automatically for games when they come out.

 

I am posting here because this forum has helped me out in the past when I posted here. Even though I've finished the game, it left me bothered and if I could ever fix the issue I may even replay it. More importantly, I'm concerned about KH3. I would not be able to enjoy KH3 if the gameplay and cutscenes are this bad....

 

I have done extensive research online, and while I see posts about this same issue, I have yet to find any real solutions. The one solution I have heard is to move the game to an external hard drive. I have yet to try this because I don't have an external hard drive that is compatible with the PS4. I am wondering if there are any other solutions? Is this just how the game is? Do these issues exist on the PS4 Pro, and if they don't, do I need a PS4 Pro to enjoy KH3 when it comes out?

 

Thank you so much for reading and replying! Hoping to figure this out one way or another!



#2 Zeldablade7

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 02:44 AM

glad I'm not the only person who has noticed this. It does bother me that games like Zero Dawn Horizon can run on a normal ps4 99% of the time perfectly, while 0.2. the game has an inconsistent framerate. Maybe this is a problem with SE games made on the ps4 because I've experienced this with Final Fantasy 15 as well. Based on the kingdom hearts 3 trailers we've seen so far, it doesn't look like it has the problem, but we really won't know until we see actual gameplay that's not from a trailer.  


Edited by Zeldablade7, 10 March 2018 - 02:47 AM.


#3 FlipMode

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 08:42 AM

I think it's related to the bad frame pacing more than the actual frame rate.

#4 Zeldablade7

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 11:00 AM

I think it's related to the bad frame pacing more than the actual frame rate. 

What is the difference between frame pacing and frame rate? 



#5 KH4Real

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 01:48 PM

Yeah 0.2 didn't run perfectly on my normal ps4  But when I'll get KH3 I hope they will release a pro bundle.

The same like Monster Hunter and God of War.



#6 FlipMode

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 06:58 PM

What is the difference between frame pacing and frame rate?

Without getting too technical and boring you half to death, frame rate is the rate at which frames are being rendered and displayed. Frame pacing is how fast within that second all those frames are being rendered.

And if you're interested in the more technical side of it, read on :D


Let's use an example and say Horizon Zero Dawn as you mentioned it. That game runs at 30FPS (Frames Per Second) . 0.2 also runs at a frame rate of 30 FPS on vanilla PS4. So then why does it seem jittery and appear to be lagging? Well that's where frame pacing comes into it.

5X6 = 30
So for every 1 sixth of a second five frames are being displayed. Now what happens is each one of those five frames is duplicated to give a smooth look to the animation otherwise it would appear way too fast and jittery.

In 1 sixth of a second these are the frames being displayed with good pacing.
1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 3 - 3 - 4 - 4 - 5 - 5
Each one is duplicate once to keep a consistent smoothness.

Now with pacing issues you might have a chart which reads something like:
1-1-1-2-3-4-5-5-5
The 2nd and 3rd and 4th frames are not duplicated like the rest. The result is that those frames are displayed for less time than the others, thus the "lag" that you are experiencing with 0.2.

The reason it's happening in 0.2 and not say Dream Drop Distance HD is because 0.2 is using a new game engine and the code may not be as well optimised. It is a demo after all.

The good news is that this is an issue that developers can fix. And I'm sure SE are working on better optimisation of the new engine for KH3. :)

Edited by FlipMode, 10 March 2018 - 06:59 PM.


#7 David Buchwald

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 09:46 PM

Thanks so much for the explanation, FlipMode, this actually helps a lot! My only questions is this part:

 

 

In 1 sixth of a second these are the frames being displayed with good pacing.
1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 3 - 3 - 4 - 4 - 5 - 5
Each one is duplicate once to keep a consistent smoothness.

 

I thought you said with Vanilla PS4, we are getting 30 FPS, meaning 5 frames per 1 sixth of a second. So If I am understanding you correctly, how come in the example above you show 10 frames in the sixth of a second?

 

I guess I do have one other question, sorry but you've sparked my interest now  :)  Does the "bad" pacing issues, meaning the inconsistent frame duplication you explained, happen in both the cinematic scenes and in the actual gameplay? Because as I stated in the original post, I had problems with both in 0.2. Is it the same issue?

 

Since there doesn't seem to be a "solution" which is why I posted in the first place, does anybody know if these problems exist on the PS4 Pro? As KH4Real posted above, if they come out with a special edition pro bundle for KH3, I might end up getting that.

 

Thanks!



#8 FlipMode

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 04:25 PM

Thanks so much for the explanation, FlipMode, this actually helps a lot! My only questions is this part:

 

 

 

I thought you said with Vanilla PS4, we are getting 30 FPS, meaning 5 frames per 1 sixth of a second. So If I am understanding you correctly, how come in the example above you show 10 frames in the sixth of a second?

 

I guess I do have one other question, sorry but you've sparked my interest now  :)  Does the "bad" pacing issues, meaning the inconsistent frame duplication you explained, happen in both the cinematic scenes and in the actual gameplay? Because as I stated in the original post, I had problems with both in 0.2. Is it the same issue?

 

Since there doesn't seem to be a "solution" which is why I posted in the first place, does anybody know if these problems exist on the PS4 Pro? As KH4Real posted above, if they come out with a special edition pro bundle for KH3, I might end up getting that.

 

Thanks!

 

Because it is rendering five frames, they just get duplicated each time. This way you get a smooth transition between them. So when that duplicate frame is missing, the next frame appears faster than the one before it did and the game seems to lag as a result of the sequence being broken. 

If you listen to one song four times, you've listened to one song not four songs, right? Same thing :) You're seeing the same frames twice but of course this all happens in a fraction of a second, the result is a smooth transition, the hardware had enough time to render and display the next frame. When the frame isn't duplicated, the next one appears too quickly, the picture appears to suddenly jolt forward. 

 

Another way of looking at it is that if Aqua and Terra are both walking, taking one step a second for ten seconds, every step Aqua takes takes her 1 second to complete, every other step Terra takes only takes him 0.5 seconds to complete but they both still only take a step every second. The result would be they walk the same distance and the same amount of steps, the only thing is that Terra's animation would appear janky and laggy as you see his leg suddenly jolt forward faster than the previous one. 

 

And yes as far as I know BBS 0.2's cutscenes are all running in the game engine so you'll experience it in both. Except for the into cinematic which is of course pre rendered and the console is just playing it back :)

 

 

 

As far as PS4 Pro goes, that's really up to you. on vanilla PS4 you have frame pacing bug but it does run a steady 30 FPS for the most part. On Pro you still get slowdown because the game runs at 60 FPS unlocked, so the frame rate is usually closer to 45-50 than it is 60 and that sometimes can cause noticeable stutter too. 

But I do think these issues will be fixed for KH3 :)

 

There's no denying the PS4 Pro will play the game better but that might just be 4K resolution. We really won't know until the game is out. 

I say stick to your normal PS4, try KH3 when it comes out, if it runs like ass then either get  Pro or wait for the PC port. 

But I can't see Sony letting KH3 release with performance issues. There's a lot riding on this game for them too, a lot of people got a PS4 for this. 



#9 David Buchwald

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:48 PM

Because it is rendering five frames, they just get duplicated each time. This way you get a smooth transition between them. So when that duplicate frame is missing, the next frame appears faster than the one before it did and the game seems to lag as a result of the sequence being broken. 

If you listen to one song four times, you've listened to one song not four songs, right? Same thing :) You're seeing the same frames twice but of course this all happens in a fraction of a second, the result is a smooth transition, the hardware had enough time to render and display the next frame. When the frame isn't duplicated, the next one appears too quickly, the picture appears to suddenly jolt forward. 

 

Another way of looking at it is that if Aqua and Terra are both walking, taking one step a second for ten seconds, every step Aqua takes takes her 1 second to complete, every other step Terra takes only takes him 0.5 seconds to complete but they both still only take a step every second. The result would be they walk the same distance and the same amount of steps, the only thing is that Terra's animation would appear janky and laggy as you see his leg suddenly jolt forward faster than the previous one. 

 

And yes as far as I know BBS 0.2's cutscenes are all running in the game engine so you'll experience it in both. Except for the into cinematic which is of course pre rendered and the console is just playing it back :)

 

 

 

As far as PS4 Pro goes, that's really up to you. on vanilla PS4 you have frame pacing bug but it does run a steady 30 FPS for the most part. On Pro you still get slowdown because the game runs at 60 FPS unlocked, so the frame rate is usually closer to 45-50 than it is 60 and that sometimes can cause noticeable stutter too. 

But I do think these issues will be fixed for KH3 :)

 

There's no denying the PS4 Pro will play the game better but that might just be 4K resolution. We really won't know until the game is out. 

I say stick to your normal PS4, try KH3 when it comes out, if it runs like ass then either get  Pro or wait for the PC port. 

But I can't see Sony letting KH3 release with performance issues. There's a lot riding on this game for them too, a lot of people got a PS4 for this. 

 

Thanks so much FlipMode!  Your explanation is perfect.  After tons of research online, and not getting very far, this is now making sense to me.  And you also explained why the intro cinematic seems to be the only cinematic cutscene without any noticeable lag or stuttering! I was wondering about that one  :)  Here's to hoping Sony/SE do the right thing and fix these issues for KH3, for both the original PS4, and the Pro!  :)  



#10 David Buchwald

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Posted 19 May 2018 - 09:55 AM

Revisiting this thread now that we've seen KH3 gameplay. Although I can only go based on what I've seen on online videos, it seems these issues are still present. From what I can see, the Toy Story sections seems smoother. However, the Titan Battle seemed to have the stuttering again. This has me extremely worried. Have you guys seen the footage? What does everyone think?